Bucs Doomsday Scenario

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The big 3 are gone, and you can't trade back...who is your pick at #7?

Derwin James
12
29%
Minkah Fitzpatrick
9
21%
Denzel Ward
11
26%
Vita Vea
9
21%
Marcus Davenport
0
No votes
Tremaine Edmunds
0
No votes
Josh Jackson
1
2%
Derrius Guice
0
No votes
Other (Please specify)
0
No votes
 
Total votes : 42

Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:23 pm

mdb1958 wrote:I want to know why Josh Jackson will be a bust


I still like Josh Jackson a lot, but a lot of people hated how he looked in drills at the combine. I was going to make a mock where he fell to the 2nd and even though we all want a RB, he'd be too good to pass up there, but I'm lazy and have a lot of work.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:42 pm

I'm blown away by the love Vea is getting.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Naismith » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:56 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:I'm blown away by the love Vea is getting.


The only other player listed that plays a position as important as Vea does is Davenport. I'd imagine a decent percentage of the people that picked Vea would pick Davenport if Vea wasn't an option.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Super K » Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:57 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
terrytate wrote:

Because Minkah isn't as good of a tackler as Derwin. James played 26 college games vs 42 for Minkah, yet James leads in every career stat except picks. More sacks, TFL, total tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries. At the same time, James is better in coverage than is advertised. He's just as fast and rangy as Fitz, and there is plenty of tape of James being lined up at outside corner against #1 WR's and holding up.


Derwin James loafs around the field on passing downs too often. Maybe he has the ability to cover, but too often on tape last year he takes himself out of the play by either guessing wrong or simply lack of effort, or when he's there he was soo stiff that he may have been better off out of the play. FSU fans say he wasn't the same last year, but I watched a lot of his film and was super unimpressed by him in coverage. James isn't near as good as Fitz in coverage and if we are talking about hips, he doesn't appear to have the hips to ever be what even Fitz is now. Fitz doesn't hit as hard as James, but he's not a bad or even average tackler by any measure. Fitz is a much safer and better prospect for us or anyone than James.

Again, I only watched last year, but he just reminded me of Taylor Mays as this huge LB/Safety who hits hard, but plodded around the field. There were too many tackles that James just waited for the play to come to him instead of hustling to stop it earlier.

Maybe it's an effort thing...maybe he was saving himself, but I don't like his tape and from everything I've read this stuff is a pretty common opinion.



Your take on James is 100% spot on...
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:07 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:I'm blown away by the love Vea is getting.


#Metoo

I don't want to come across as hating on Vea or that I don't think he's a good prospect. I just don't see him as a top 10 value is all.

It's great to have a dominate run defender at DT. But you don't draft those guys at 7th overall. Vea isn't going to provide much rushing the QB and likely won't even be on the field in those 3rd & long type situations. I think people are fooling themselves if they expect any different. Ngata made a few pro bowls in his prime and was heck of player for the Ravens. But that was in a different scheme than what we run here. Vea has solid floor and will be valuable member of whatever Dline he joins. I just wouldn't consider him at 7. Tbh I think you can get him in the 13/14 range and this draft class is loaded at DT.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:08 pm

Naismith wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I'm blown away by the love Vea is getting.


The only other player listed that plays a position as important as Vea does is Davenport. I'd imagine a decent percentage of the people that picked Vea would pick Davenport if Vea wasn't an option.

In what world is a 4-3 NT a premium position?
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:11 pm

real bucs fan wrote:
Naismith wrote:
The only other player listed that plays a position as important as Vea does is Davenport. I'd imagine a decent percentage of the people that picked Vea would pick Davenport if Vea wasn't an option.

In what world is a 4-3 NT a premium position?


Not all 4-3 defenses utilize a NT, kyddo. Anyone who claims to have played the position would know this.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Naismith » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:12 pm

Interior pass rusher is a premium position. If you don't think Vea can consistently provide pressure up the middle, you're not going to think he's worth it. If you think he can, he's more valuable than a bunch of DBs.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:24 pm

Naismith wrote:Interior pass rusher is a premium position. If you don't think Vea can consistently provide pressure up the middle, you're not going to think he's worth it. If you think he can, he's more valuable than a bunch of DBs.


Why would people think Vea can be an effective pass rusher in the NFL? He got 9 sacks in 37 college games w/ a season high of 5. I have doubts he'd even be on the field in sub package situations tbh.

DTs that are effective pass rushers win with quickness vs (normally) slower Guards and Centers. McCoy, Donald, Adkins, Short, Fletcher Cox, etc those are the premier interior pass rushers and they are quick. Vea is not that type of player and that is OK. Nothing wrong with being a dominating run defender at DT, it just lowers your value. It's why Carolina let Star walk in FA.

If people think Vea is going to be more than a 3-5 sack type of player they're in for disappointment.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby theBKwhopper » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:26 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:In what world is a 4-3 NT a premium position?


Not all 4-3 defenses utilize a NT, kyddo. Anyone who claims to have played the position would know this.

I think you guys just agreed.. I'm not sure though, cause I've never seen it actually happen...
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby theBKwhopper » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:30 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Naismith wrote:Interior pass rusher is a premium position. If you don't think Vea can consistently provide pressure up the middle, you're not going to think he's worth it. If you think he can, he's more valuable than a bunch of DBs.


Why would people think Vea can be an effective pass rusher in the NFL? He got 9 sacks in 37 college games w/ a season high of 5. I have doubts he'd even be on the field in sub package situations tbh.

DTs that are effective pass rushers win with quickness vs (normally) slower Guards and Centers. McCoy, Donald, Adkins, Short, Fletcher Cox, etc those are the premier interior pass rushers and they are quick. Vea is not that type of player and that is OK. Nothing wrong with being a dominating run defender at DT, it just lowers your value. It's why Carolina let Star walk in FA.

If people think Vea is going to be more than a 3-5 sack type of player they're in for disappointment.

I don't really like him at 7. I wouldn't mind trading down and taking him, though. I think my draft crush this year is Rasheem Green. I hope we get him in the 2nd. I also wouldn't mind trading back into the 3rd if he falls that far. He's probably a project, but we have depth and experience on the edge now. We could groom him to take over for JP.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Naismith » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:40 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Naismith wrote:Interior pass rusher is a premium position. If you don't think Vea can consistently provide pressure up the middle, you're not going to think he's worth it. If you think he can, he's more valuable than a bunch of DBs.


Why would people think Vea can be an effective pass rusher in the NFL? He got 9 sacks in 37 college games w/ a season high of 5. I have doubts he'd even be on the field in sub package situations tbh.

DTs that are effective pass rushers win with quickness vs (normally) slower Guards and Centers. McCoy, Donald, Adkins, Short, Fletcher Cox, etc those are the premier interior pass rushers and they are quick. Vea is not that type of player and that is OK. Nothing wrong with being a dominating run defender at DT, it just lowers your value. It's why Carolina let Star walk in FA.

If people think Vea is going to be more than a 3-5 sack type of player they're in for disappointment.


Interior rush doesn't need to result in sacks. It needs to get QBs uncomfortable, collapse pockets and get QBs moving towards edge rushers and away from where they want to be when they throw the ball.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Naismith » Fri Apr 06, 2018 2:53 pm

Just looked through some PFF stuff. I had no idea they were so high on Maurice Hurst.

1. MAURICE HURST, MICHIGAN
The prototypical 3-technique defensive tackle, Hurst offers a pass-rushing toolbox that no other interior player in this class can come close to matching. His four-year career of grades is unlike anything we’ve ever seen at the defensive tackle position, proving his durability and sustainability at the position.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Deuce » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:05 pm

Naismith wrote:Just looked through some PFF stuff. I had no idea they were so high on Maurice Hurst.

1. MAURICE HURST, MICHIGAN
The prototypical 3-technique defensive tackle, Hurst offers a pass-rushing toolbox that no other interior player in this class can come close to matching. His four-year career of grades is unlike anything we’ve ever seen at the defensive tackle position, proving his durability and sustainability at the position.


Believe it or not, there are multiple people who have Hurst rated as a better prospect than Vea. I have no idea who is right. But as a casual observer, Vea seems like the type of player who could easily be overrated by fans.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Naismith » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:24 pm

Just read on Pewter Report that Hurst isn't the type of DT the Bucs would be interested in, so it's probably a YMMV situation for what the team is looking for.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:29 pm

Naismith wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Why would people think Vea can be an effective pass rusher in the NFL? He got 9 sacks in 37 college games w/ a season high of 5. I have doubts he'd even be on the field in sub package situations tbh.

DTs that are effective pass rushers win with quickness vs (normally) slower Guards and Centers. McCoy, Donald, Adkins, Short, Fletcher Cox, etc those are the premier interior pass rushers and they are quick. Vea is not that type of player and that is OK. Nothing wrong with being a dominating run defender at DT, it just lowers your value. It's why Carolina let Star walk in FA.

If people think Vea is going to be more than a 3-5 sack type of player they're in for disappointment.


Interior rush doesn't need to result in sacks. It needs to get QBs uncomfortable, collapse pockets and get QBs moving towards edge rushers and away from where they want to be when they throw the ball.


I don't disagree with that. But Vea isn't going to bull rush NFL interior Olinemen like he did college. Vea would likely be effective next to a elite DT like McCoy b/c Vea would get 1v1's, but if you're spending the 7th overall pick on a DT than he better be able to create pressure when he is the DT1 on a team and Vea isn't that type of DT.

I like Vea, just not at 7. If we traded down and picked up additional picks on day 2 that would open up our board than I love a guy like Vea somewhere in the 12-15 range. I just think there are more impactful players to be had at 7th overall.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:36 pm

Naismith wrote:Just read on Pewter Report that Hurst isn't the type of DT the Bucs would be interested in, so it's probably a YMMV situation for what the team is looking for.


I saw that in the Fab5 today. Scott is assuming b/c we signed Baker last year and Allen this year that we only covet 320+lb DTs. What I think he's overlooking is that we likely covet that size DT to play the Nose/1-tech next to McCoy. Hurst is McCoy-like DT with how he plays, which is attacking the gaps and winning with quickness.

I like Hurst and imo he's a better fit for the Bucs in terms of scheme and addressing our current roster since we already have two big run stopping DTs in Allen and Unrein and don't have any 3-tech type DT other than McCoy.

I'd love to grab Hurst in round 2 and groom him behind McCoy.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:39 pm

theBKwhopper wrote: I think my draft crush this year is Rasheem Green.


Like him also. Bit of tweener and has some development needed still but great traits and loads of potential. He and Settle are my two favorite project Dlinemen who I could see greatly surpassing their current draft value. Both are 20yrs old.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:45 pm

I had us taking Green in the 4th in my mock, Bootz said it was reach. Right now l highly doubt he'd make it there at all.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:49 pm

real bucs fan wrote:I had us taking Green in the 4th in my mock


That would be a steal imo.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby theBKwhopper » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:31 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:I had us taking Green in the 4th in my mock


That would be a steal imo.

Agreed. Not sure how it would be a reach. Maybe you could say the 2nd is a reach, but I think he has a lot of upside.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Konatown » Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:45 pm

theBKwhopper wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
That would be a steal imo.

Agreed. Not sure how it would be a reach. Maybe you could say the 2nd is a reach, but I think he has a lot of upside.

He does. Came out a year early than most scouts would’ve liked so it may cause him to slip. But if he develops he would be a hell of a LDE
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:03 pm

real bucs fan wrote:I had us taking Green in the 4th in my mock, Bootz said it was reach. Right now l highly doubt he'd make it there at all.


Fake news, kyddo.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:06 pm

Deuce wrote:
MJW wrote:6'0 191
5'10 199
6'0 197
5'11 191
6'0 201
5'11 191
5'11 176
5'11 192
5'10 188
5'10 190

Nine of those numbers represent nine of probably the twenty best corners in the NFL today. The other one is Denzel Ward.


Not trying to prod here but I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Why did you post "nine of probably the twenty best corners"? Why nine? Did you pick the nine smallest? And why no names?

And I'm not just going by numbers. It's that every scouting report seems to harp on Ward's size. Seven of Ward's weaknesses were size-related on his NFL.com scouting report.

I picked the next highest-rated "small" CB, Mike Hughes from UCF. Here are his weaknesses:

Has played just two years of college football with just one season as a starter
Not as natural with mirror and match footwork as he will need to be on next level
Lacks height and gets high-pointed by capable wideouts with size
Plays too tall in his backpedal and from off coverage which slows transitions on the throw
Allows physical receivers to knock him off the top of the route
Needs more practice and game experience for improved pattern recognition
Coverage balance is hit-or-miss
Has room for improvement as a tackler

Two things refer to his size. I see a lot of things with Ward that turn me off that aren't plain height and weight numbers. Things like "small frame", "slight", and "avoiding contact". I see some people saying "his size didn't hurt him in college" but how often was he lining up against 6'3+ receivers?

Give me an honest answer here. Not even 2018, let's say 2019. We're facing the Carolina Panthers and need someone to cover Devin Funchess. How comfortable are you with Ward shadowing him? (I didn't pick Julio because that's just unfair)


I picked nine because it's a top ten list.

I didn't just down the names, but working backwards, I see AJ Bouye, Chris Harris, Marcus Peters, Trevor Williams, Tre'Davious White, Jason Verrett, Janoris Jenkins, and Casey Hayward.

The answer is, there will be some perfect routes, ran perfectly, combined with perfect passes, that perfect coverage from a 5'11 corner can't stop, when a 6'2 corner could.

Not drafting a great cover corner because of the 2 or 3 times a season that unfolds is idiocy IMHO.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:35 pm

MJW wrote:
Deuce wrote:
Not trying to prod here but I am trying to get to the bottom of this. Why did you post "nine of probably the twenty best corners"? Why nine? Did you pick the nine smallest? And why no names?

And I'm not just going by numbers. It's that every scouting report seems to harp on Ward's size. Seven of Ward's weaknesses were size-related on his NFL.com scouting report.

I picked the next highest-rated "small" CB, Mike Hughes from UCF. Here are his weaknesses:

Has played just two years of college football with just one season as a starter
Not as natural with mirror and match footwork as he will need to be on next level
Lacks height and gets high-pointed by capable wideouts with size
Plays too tall in his backpedal and from off coverage which slows transitions on the throw
Allows physical receivers to knock him off the top of the route
Needs more practice and game experience for improved pattern recognition
Coverage balance is hit-or-miss
Has room for improvement as a tackler

Two things refer to his size. I see a lot of things with Ward that turn me off that aren't plain height and weight numbers. Things like "small frame", "slight", and "avoiding contact". I see some people saying "his size didn't hurt him in college" but how often was he lining up against 6'3+ receivers?

Give me an honest answer here. Not even 2018, let's say 2019. We're facing the Carolina Panthers and need someone to cover Devin Funchess. How comfortable are you with Ward shadowing him? (I didn't pick Julio because that's just unfair)


I picked nine because it's a top ten list.

I didn't just down the names, but working backwards, I see AJ Bouye, Chris Harris, Marcus Peters, Trevor Williams, Tre'Davious White, Jason Verrett, Janoris Jenkins, and Casey Hayward.

The answer is, there will be some perfect routes, ran perfectly, combined with perfect passes, that perfect coverage from a 5'11 corner can't stop, when a 6'2 corner could.

Not drafting a great cover corner because of the 2 or 3 times a season that unfolds is idiocy IMHO.

So you admit to leaving out the best CBs in the NFL that are of ideal height to prove a point? I'm not one raging over Ward's height, but your post was ridiculous.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:39 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
MJW wrote:
I picked nine because it's a top ten list.

I didn't just down the names, but working backwards, I see AJ Bouye, Chris Harris, Marcus Peters, Trevor Williams, Tre'Davious White, Jason Verrett, Janoris Jenkins, and Casey Hayward.

The answer is, there will be some perfect routes, ran perfectly, combined with perfect passes, that perfect coverage from a 5'11 corner can't stop, when a 6'2 corner could.

Not drafting a great cover corner because of the 2 or 3 times a season that unfolds is idiocy IMHO.

So you admit to leaving out the best CBs in the NFL that are of ideal height to prove a point? I'm not one raging over Ward's height, but your post was ridiculous.


Those are some of the best CBs in the NFL, despite being the same size or smaller than Ward. That was my point. I didn't present that as the complete list of the best corners in the NFL, nor imply it. The point is, guys as big as Ward, and some smaller than Ward, are kicking ass in the league. I don't see his height or size as an issue for this reason.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Apr 06, 2018 10:47 pm

MJW wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:So you admit to leaving out the best CBs in the NFL that are of ideal height to prove a point? I'm not one raging over Ward's height, but your post was ridiculous.


Those are some of the best CBs in the NFL, despite being the same size or smaller than Ward. That was my point. I didn't present that as the complete list of the best corners in the NFL, nor imply it. The point is, guys as big as Ward, and some smaller than Ward, are kicking ass in the league. I don't see his height or size as an issue for this reason.

I think that goes against your point more than for it, you had to exclude probably 5 of the top 10 cbs in the NFL including the best of the best. Some of the guys you listed are not worth the 7th pick of the draft by some people's standards. It was a misleading post at best. I think Ward does play taller than his height.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby terrytate » Fri Apr 06, 2018 11:13 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
terrytate wrote:

Because Minkah isn't as good of a tackler as Derwin. James played 26 college games vs 42 for Minkah, yet James leads in every career stat except picks. More sacks, TFL, total tackles, forced fumbles, fumble recoveries. At the same time, James is better in coverage than is advertised. He's just as fast and rangy as Fitz, and there is plenty of tape of James being lined up at outside corner against #1 WR's and holding up.


Derwin James loafs around the field on passing downs too often. Maybe he has the ability to cover, but too often on tape last year he takes himself out of the play by either guessing wrong or simply lack of effort, or when he's there he was soo stiff that he may have been better off out of the play. FSU fans say he wasn't the same last year, but I watched a lot of his film and was super unimpressed by him in coverage. James isn't near as good as Fitz in coverage and if we are talking about hips, he doesn't appear to have the hips to ever be what even Fitz is now. Fitz doesn't hit as hard as James, but he's not a bad or even average tackler by any measure. Fitz is a much safer and better prospect for us or anyone than James.

Again, I only watched last year, but he just reminded me of Taylor Mays as this huge LB/Safety who hits hard, but plodded around the field. There were too many tackles that James just waited for the play to come to him instead of hustling to stop it earlier.

Maybe it's an effort thing...maybe he was saving himself, but I don't like his tape and from everything I've read this stuff is a pretty common opinion.


I saw a few where he bit hard on playaction too. Honestly, I think the entire FSU team, especially the defense, clocked out last year. Between losing Francois in game one, all the horseshit surrounding Jimbo Fisher and how bad Fisher's coaching staff was, the whole team underperformed. Derwin James might have been guilty of some of that, but I watched a lot of film where he and Tarvares McFadden seemed like the only guys balling.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby MJW » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:46 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
MJW wrote:
Those are some of the best CBs in the NFL, despite being the same size or smaller than Ward. That was my point. I didn't present that as the complete list of the best corners in the NFL, nor imply it. The point is, guys as big as Ward, and some smaller than Ward, are kicking ass in the league. I don't see his height or size as an issue for this reason.

I think that goes against your point more than for it, you had to exclude probably 5 of the top 10 cbs in the NFL including the best of the best. Some of the guys you listed are not worth the 7th pick of the draft by some people's standards. It was a misleading post at best. I think Ward does play taller than his height.


I think Ward is as good or better than everyone on that list. Or coule be.

You're kind of Bootzing it here, USC. I was making the point that smaller corners than Ward are among the best in the league. That's all. Saying that Ward being 5'10 3/4ths and 191 lbs is a reason not to draft him is folly.
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Re: Bucs Doomsday Scenario

Postby real bucs fan » Sat Apr 07, 2018 10:22 am

Sure if Ward was 6'1" he'd be an even better prospect, and he'd be a better fit here with the small CBs we already have in a division loaded with tall #1 receivers...

But as we've seen with Grimes, if you can ball you can ball. My biggest concern with Ward is him not getting his head around and locating the ball consistantly, but that can be improved with coaching.
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