Immigration question for the Progressives

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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:01 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
You really believe the frequency of police shootings are due to a fascist government?

I think that merits a discussion more than anything else.




In all honesty I basically ignore that word on this board as it’s used incorrectly 99% of the time.

I don’t disagree with the underlying premise that often times people overlook excessive force on the population by police and SWAT


I was typing this before others posted....

My first question if you said yes was, define fascism for me, but now that we are moving on from that...

It goes to the ideology post I made earlier about America being different than anywhere else. Our freedoms and confidence in them give us this culture of revolting against authority and police, which creates a terrible circle of violence. Police are increasing more fearful for their safety and so are citizens so we see an escalation of force between the two sides. It would be closer to a police state than fascism, for factors beyond the violence, but even that is extreme.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:03 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:We'll put 100,000 dudes with AR's and a full combat load no problem on the border, but god forbid the city council starts fining people for not mowing their grass. TYRANNY!


I know you’re being fascetious ... but I’m not sure everyone sees the distinction
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:05 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:


In all honesty I basically ignore that word on this board as it’s used incorrectly 99% of the time.

I don’t disagree with the underlying premise that often times people overlook excessive force on the population by police and SWAT


I was typing this before others posted....

My first question if you said yes was, define fascism for me, but now that we are moving on from that...

It goes to the ideology post I made earlier about America being different than anywhere else. Our freedoms and confidence in them give us this culture of revolting against authority and police, which creates a terrible circle of violence. Police are increasing more fearful for their safety and so are citizens so we see an escalation of force between the two sides. It would be closer to a police state than fascism, for factors beyond the violence, but even that is extreme.



The libertarian website Reason actually had an article showing violence against police is the lowest it has been in a long time. It just gets publicized more. Sadly they didn’t do analysis of excessive force. I don’t doubt we have similar results. Less excessive force, but more publicity of it
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:07 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:We'll put 100,000 dudes with AR's and a full combat load no problem on the border, but god forbid the city council starts fining people for not mowing their grass. TYRANNY!


I know you’re being fascetious ... but I’m not sure everyone sees the distinction

We'll have to train em up,Zarni.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:08 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
I was typing this before others posted....

My first question if you said yes was, define fascism for me, but now that we are moving on from that...

It goes to the ideology post I made earlier about America being different than anywhere else. Our freedoms and confidence in them give us this culture of revolting against authority and police, which creates a terrible circle of violence. Police are increasing more fearful for their safety and so are citizens so we see an escalation of force between the two sides. It would be closer to a police state than fascism, for factors beyond the violence, but even that is extreme.



The libertarian website Reason actually had an article showing violence against police is the lowest it has been in a long time. It just gets publicized more. Sadly they didn’t do analysis of excessive force. I don’t doubt we have similar results. Less excessive force, but more publicity of it


Violence against police is often skewed to murder or attempt there of. I'm talking about resisting arrest, assaults, threats, pulling a weapon...many of which do not fall under violence towards police. Disrespecting, not obeying, resting are at an all time high, especially in lower socioeconomic groups.

I'm telling you, every day it's more difficult to be a police officer. It gets more dangerous and more and more officers decide the pay isn't worth the risk.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:08 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Indeed. As I said, we already have the basic equivalent of two federal ids — SS cards and Passports (granted not everyone gets a Passport).

No reason those two can’t be combined into one.


Because it took me about 20 hours of sitting around and waiting to renew my passport last time. **** wasting that much time for an essential ID.

Guess that's a good way to weed out those you don't want voting, though.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:09 pm

NYBF wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Indeed. As I said, we already have the basic equivalent of two federal ids — SS cards and Passports (granted not everyone gets a Passport).

No reason those two can’t be combined into one.


Because it took me about 20 hours of sitting around and waiting to renew my passport last time. **** wasting that much time for an essential ID.

Guess that's a good way to weed out those you don't want voting, though.



Exactly....the inefficiency of government is monumental


:P
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:10 pm

NYBF wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Indeed. As I said, we already have the basic equivalent of two federal ids — SS cards and Passports (granted not everyone gets a Passport).

No reason those two can’t be combined into one.


Because it took me about 20 hours of sitting around and waiting to renew my passport last time. **** wasting that much time for an essential ID.

Guess that's a good way to weed out those you don't want voting, though.


I want citizens to vote, you feel different?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:11 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

The libertarian website Reason actually had an article showing violence against police is the lowest it has been in a long time. It just gets publicized more. Sadly they didn’t do analysis of excessive force. I don’t doubt we have similar results. Less excessive force, but more publicity of it


Violence against police is often skewed to murder or attempt there of. I'm talking about resisting arrest, assaults, threats, pulling a weapon...many of which do not fall under violence towards police. Disrespecting, not obeying, resting are at an all time high, especially in lower socioeconomic groups.

I'm telling you, every day it's more difficult to be a police officer. It gets more dangerous and more and more officers decide the pay isn't worth the risk.



I don’t remember exactly what qualified as violence against police in the article.

I absolutely agree that the respect for police is incredibly low at the moment. And that their jobs are harder then ever
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:13 pm

It’s amazing isn’t it ... when you have a group of posters not putting things in others mouths (OOC) or rattling on in hyperbole or straw men we can actually have decent conversations on the board
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:17 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Violence against police is often skewed to murder or attempt there of. I'm talking about resisting arrest, assaults, threats, pulling a weapon...many of which do not fall under violence towards police. Disrespecting, not obeying, resting are at an all time high, especially in lower socioeconomic groups.

I'm telling you, every day it's more difficult to be a police officer. It gets more dangerous and more and more officers decide the pay isn't worth the risk.



I don’t remember exactly what qualified as violence against police in the article.

I absolutely agree that the respect for police is incredibly low at the moment. And that their jobs are harder then ever


Right, and the Police trust in the public is at an all time low, too. It creates these terrible violent situations, but I don't believe it to be systematic as far as implemented from the top down to be quicker to use violence. I think it's systematic as far as Police all over are running into more issues/escalation/violence than ever before. As I spoke in the Police violence thread, many of these men/women aren't cut out for those situations and they are being tested at an all-time rate, equating to an increased amount of police shootings.

Everyone asks for more training, but we need better candidates. That only comes with better pay. Units are so starved for officers they are waiving prior drug use, past issues, etc. It creates a bad product, but the excessive violence in the communities and attrition of the force is creating a massive demand.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:19 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:It’s amazing isn’t it ... when you have a group of posters not putting things in others mouths (OOC) or rattling on in hyperbole or straw men we can actually have decent conversations on the board


I'm sure you just jinxed it.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:21 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Violence against police is often skewed to murder or attempt there of. I'm talking about resisting arrest, assaults, threats, pulling a weapon...many of which do not fall under violence towards police. Disrespecting, not obeying, resting are at an all time high, especially in lower socioeconomic groups.

I'm telling you, every day it's more difficult to be a police officer. It gets more dangerous and more and more officers decide the pay isn't worth the risk.



I don’t remember exactly what qualified as violence against police in the article.

I absolutely agree that the respect for police is incredibly low at the moment. And that their jobs are harder then ever

Cops need to look in the mirror to find out why it got this way.

Somewhere along the line it went from protector of the public to soldier on the battlefield. Wrong mindset IMO.

Cops have a tough job and there are some great folks doing God's work everyday, but the phony tough guys like that ***hole who executed that kid in the hotel after making him crawl on the floor are devastating the profession.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:27 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I don’t remember exactly what qualified as violence against police in the article.

I absolutely agree that the respect for police is incredibly low at the moment. And that their jobs are harder then ever

Cops need to look in the mirror to find out why it got this way.

Somewhere along the line it went from protector of the public to soldier on the battlefield. Wrong mindset IMO.

Cops have a tough job and there are some great folks doing God's work everyday, but the phony tough guys like that ***hole who executed that kid in the hotel after making him crawl on the floor are devastating the profession.


This sort of goes to what I'm saying about needing a better candidate pool. I also think it's important for citizens to understand that LEOs are not just altruistic individuals volunteering to protect and serve. They are mostly doing to as a means to and end...to pay the bills. They have a family and going home to that family is always going to be number 1. I've seen some respond harshly to that, but it's true for many in the military, LEOs, EMTs, any thing that has a level of risk, but can offer career stability, decent pay, without requiring secondary education.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:28 pm

And we've officially taken this thread completely off topic.

I'm terrible about that...sorry.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:52 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:And we've officially taken this thread completely off topic.

I'm terrible about that...sorry.

I'm responsible. I'm the guy who went on about big government for everyone else.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby RedLeader » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:00 pm

Total homicides in Mexico...

2007: 8,867
2012: 25,967
2017: 29,168 (a record high)


I say we just wait it out.... ;)
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 4:26 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

The libertarian website Reason actually had an article showing violence against police is the lowest it has been in a long time. It just gets publicized more. Sadly they didn’t do analysis of excessive force. I don’t doubt we have similar results. Less excessive force, but more publicity of it


Violence against police is often skewed to murder or attempt there of. I'm talking about resisting arrest, assaults, threats, pulling a weapon...many of which do not fall under violence towards police. Disrespecting, not obeying, resting are at an all time high, especially in lower socioeconomic groups.

I'm telling you, every day it's more difficult to be a police officer. It gets more dangerous and more and more officers decide the pay isn't worth the risk.



Cops I have talked to would look in another direction if pensions were taken away.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:51 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
NYBF wrote:
Because it took me about 20 hours of sitting around and waiting to renew my passport last time. **** wasting that much time for an essential ID.

Guess that's a good way to weed out those you don't want voting, though.


I want citizens to vote, you feel different?


You think all citizens have the time to go to a post office multiple times and sit around for hours just to renew a passport?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:58 pm

Kris Kobach’s Office Leaks Last 4 Social Security Digits of Nearly Every Kansas Lawmaker and Thousands of State Employees, Including Kris Kobach

https://gizmodo.com/kris-kobach-s-office-leaks-last-4-social-security-digit-1822415622?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

...oops
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby The Outsider » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:18 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Cops need to look in the mirror to find out why it got this way.

Somewhere along the line it went from protector of the public to soldier on the battlefield. Wrong mindset IMO.

Cops have a tough job and there are some great folks doing God's work everyday, but the phony tough guys like that ***hole who executed that kid in the hotel after making him crawl on the floor are devastating the profession.


This sort of goes to what I'm saying about needing a better candidate pool. I also think it's important for citizens to understand that LEOs are not just altruistic individuals volunteering to protect and serve. They are mostly doing to as a means to and end...to pay the bills. They have a family and going home to that family is always going to be number 1. I've seen some respond harshly to that, but it's true for many in the military, LEOs, EMTs, any thing that has a level of risk, but can offer career stability, decent pay, without requiring secondary education.


Anyone who doesn't understand that is dense. But what MB said is right. The onus is on the police to reflect on why there seems to be this disconnect with the public and why they're so heavily militarizing. I mean, sure their jobs are dangerous, but I have a hard time finding sympathy for them when my job is more dangerous and I don't even get to shoot people.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:47 am

Its getting harder and harder to distinguish the difference between the public and law breaking dirt bags and all to often, at times, they're one in the same.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:58 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

The libertarian website Reason actually had an article showing violence against police is the lowest it has been in a long time. It just gets publicized more. Sadly they didn’t do analysis of excessive force. I don’t doubt we have similar results. Less excessive force, but more publicity of it


Violence against police is often skewed to murder or attempt there of. I'm talking about resisting arrest, assaults, threats, pulling a weapon...many of which do not fall under violence towards police. Disrespecting, not obeying, resting are at an all time high, especially in lower socioeconomic groups.

I'm telling you, every day it's more difficult to be a police officer. It gets more dangerous and more and more officers decide the pay isn't worth the risk.



When a cop is dealing with someone a high percentage of them feel its their American right to not obey a police officer.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:10 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:--Increase funding for border agents


What if we moved ICE to the borders to help secure them instead of sending them sweeping through neighborhoods illegally questioning people as to their status?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby The Outsider » Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:41 am

mdb1958 wrote:Its getting harder and harder to distinguish the difference between the public and law breaking dirt bags and all to often, at times, they're one in the same.


How, exactly is it harder to distinguish between the public and law breaking dirt bags? And even if that is true are we just supposed to accept that cops are going to gun down more Innocents? Or do we do something like force police departments to raise standards of applicants and training? Specifically in non-lethal methods.

And, I'll reiterate, law enforcement isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the country. Makes you wonder why every officer needs a a Glock.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:15 pm

The Outsider wrote:And, I'll reiterate, law enforcement isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs in the country. Makes you wonder why every officer needs a a Glock.


Doesn't make me wonder. It's America and guns are prevalent so disarming LEOs doesn't seem logical to me. Despite what some think LEOs have the right to protect themselves and go home to their family. Pulling the trigger is the last thing the vast majority of LEOs want to do despite the what folks in the media would try and have everyone believe.

There are bad eggs in LE, just like there are bad members of the military, dirty politicians, corrupt bankers, shady IT people, etc. As long as humans are manning the positions there will be human error. I'm all for increased training, implementation of non-lethal means, and whatever else makes sense to reduce police shooting. But I don't support anything that puts LE in more danger (like taking away their gun) or reduces their ability to police their neighborhoods. It's a two-way street and if there was more respect from both sides in a encounter w/ LE we'd see almost none of these. But people (including bad LEOs) these days are disrespectful, confrontational, panic, and don't listen so situations escalate where one, or both sides feel it's kill or be killed/captured.

It's absurd to even mention disarming LE in a country like the the US where criminals are often armed themselves.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:22 pm

I'm not a proponent of disarming cops
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:25 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I'm not a proponent of disarming cops


I don't think anyone can logically argue they should be.

To say LEOs aren't in the top 10 of most dangerous jobs is subjective as to what qualifies as dangerous. Sure there are 12 jobs that have more deaths per capita, but as a whole LEOs encounter more hostile situations than any job in America. More so than the military.
Last edited by uscbucsfan on Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:37 pm

I'm going to ask you all to take this discussion to the appropriate thread now while I keep my hand on my holstered gun, ready to draw on you if I don't like they way you move at any given moment.

I'm told this is a perfectly acceptable way to diffuse this situation.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby The Outsider » Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:19 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I'm not a proponent of disarming cops


I don't think anyone can logically argue they should be.

To say LEOs aren't in the top 10 of most dangerous jobs is subjective as to what qualifies as dangerous. Sure there are 12 jobs that have more deaths per capita, but as a whole LEOs meet encounter more hostile situations than any job in America. More so than the military.



And yet less of them die. A death is a death regardless of whether it's delivered by a falling block, a chemical explosion, or a gun.

I'll also admit that I'm not a huge proponent of disarming the cops, that was just a jab thrown in at the end out of frustration.

At the end of the day it's up to the authority figures killing innocents to figure out why and fix it. That should be common sense.
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