40 days before Philly

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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby threadkiller » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:29 am

mdb1958 wrote:Didnt look like either of those two teams wanted to run at those defensive tackles and when they did I didnt see much success.
Not sure where your getting steaming pile from.


From watching his interaction play after play with the tiny, small school offensive linemen tasked with blocking him. Watching them more than hold their own against his minimal effort. Also, you provided an analysis of the defense and not the player.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Noles1724 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:33 am

mdb1958 wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:Looks like we are getting a positive scouting review from mdb regarding this prospect, threadkiller.


In my best Bootz voice "whats your opinion kiddo".


horrible impression.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:02 am

mdb1958 wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:Looks like we are getting a positive scouting review from mdb regarding this prospect, threadkiller.


In my best Bootz voice "whats your opinion kiddo".


If I find some time to watch it I'll post my opinion.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:09 am

Brazen331 wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:
In my best Bootz voice "whats your opinion kiddo".


If I find some time to watch it I'll post my opinion.



You do that sluggo.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Cheb » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:21 am

I watched both of the Grover Stewart games available, and I can see why mdb is excited. He's big, he's strong, and he moves well for a man his size.

However, he isn't a good defensive lineman. He can't handfight, he plays with iffy leverage, sucks versus a double team, questionable pursuit effort. What he does have is a dynamite bullrush. He can move people, that's for sure. But as a nosetackle, he is very one-dimensional, even if that dimension is pretty good.

You know, the differences between a bullrush and a drive block are largely academic. If the Bucs drafted him, I would think long and hard about moving him over to offense and see how he does at guard. With his strength and physical attributes, he could be something special if he gets his technique down.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby threadkiller » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:53 am

They even slow down a few plays so you could really focus on him putting a lineman on skates.

I am massively disappointed that I finally got somebody to watch those two tapes, and you didn't make any mention of the announcing. It's honestly the only thing that got me to watch the second game.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:58 am

Cheb wrote:I watched both of the Grover Stewart games available, and I can see why mdb is excited. He's big, he's strong, and he moves well for a man his size.

However, he isn't a good defensive lineman. He can't handfight, he plays with iffy leverage, sucks versus a double team, questionable pursuit effort. What he does have is a dynamite bullrush. He can move people, that's for sure. But as a nosetackle, he is very one-dimensional, even if that dimension is pretty good.

You know, the differences between a bullrush and a drive block are largely academic. If the Bucs drafted him, I would think long and hard about moving him over to offense and see how he does at guard. With his strength and physical attributes, he could be something special if he gets his technique down.


Well, some need a little work and some need a lotta work. I think he'd be coming to a good group of guys to learn from and there shouldnt be no big rush for a high play count unless his practice shows. Jay Hayes needs to take the clay and mold him into a good player. Like I told TK, the teams didnt seem to run much and when they did it was to the outside. The rest was quick pass plays, their QB didnt hold the ball very long - he got rid of it quick. I cant even remember if he got sacks in those games, if he did the sample of film is still small. The rest of his team didnt play very good.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:09 pm

threadkiller wrote:They even slow down a few plays so you could really focus on him putting a lineman on skates.

I am massively disappointed that I finally got somebody to watch those two tapes, and you didn't make any mention of the announcing. It's honestly the only thing that got me to watch the second game.



Dont you realize, I got you to get someone else to watch those tapes. Dont take my little tiny insignificant small schoolish clap of thunder from me.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby threadkiller » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:53 pm

Small school announce team >>>>>>>> small school DT. They are the real hidden gem in this.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:29 pm

Alabama LB Ruben Forster fails combine drug test (diluted sample). Claims he was sick and dehydrated thus drank lots of water. This was all prior to his blowup that got him sent home early.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:13 pm

threadkiller wrote:Small school announce team >>>>>>>> small school DT. They are the real hidden gem in this.



I was thinking minimal cost to acquire.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:25 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Alabama LB Ruben Forster fails combine drug test (diluted sample). Claims he was sick and dehydrated thus drank lots of water. This was all prior to his blowup that got him sent home early.


He should be available when we pick but he would be off my board. Red flags don't get much bigger than a failed combine test. That's just screaming Justin Blackmon, Randy Gregory...
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:42 pm

Brazen331 wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:Alabama LB Ruben Forster fails combine drug test (diluted sample). Claims he was sick and dehydrated thus drank lots of water. This was all prior to his blowup that got him sent home early.


He should be available when we pick but he would be off my board. Red flags don't get much bigger than a failed combine test. That's just screaming Justin Blackmon, Randy Gregory...


No way do I consider Foster at 19 after this. Not with Kwon and Lavonte onboard already.

I've already been pondering Hassan Reddick at 19 if he's there. He can the SLB that plays closer to the LOS in Mike Smiths offset 4-3 we run. Then he can play as an EDGE rusher on 3rd down or pass situations also. So he's not just a 2 down LB. Would be a good coverage guy on ST also.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:06 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
He should be available when we pick but he would be off my board. Red flags don't get much bigger than a failed combine test. That's just screaming Justin Blackmon, Randy Gregory...


No way do I consider Foster at 19 after this. Not with Kwon and Lavonte onboard already.

I've already been pondering Hassan Reddick at 19 if he's there. He can the SLB that plays closer to the LOS in Mike Smiths offset 4-3 we run. Then he can play as an EDGE rusher on 3rd down or pass situations also. So he's not just a 2 down LB. Would be a good coverage guy on ST also.


Oh yeah. The value of Reddick at 19 would be hard to pass up. I'm thinking he might go in the 9 hole to the Bengals now.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby threadkiller » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:17 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
threadkiller wrote:Small school announce team >>>>>>>> small school DT. They are the real hidden gem in this.



I was thinking minimal cost to acquire.


Fine, you can have him in the 7th over whatever Licht is planning on wasting that pick on.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:06 pm

threadkiller wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:

I was thinking minimal cost to acquire.


Fine, you can have him in the 7th over whatever Licht is planning on wasting that pick on.



You wont be sorry.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Four Verticals » Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:56 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Alabama LB Ruben Forster fails combine drug test (diluted sample). Claims he was sick and dehydrated thus drank lots of water. This was all prior to his blowup that got him sent home early.


This probably hurts the Bucs. Player they wouldn't take and likely to go before their first pick.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Doctor » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:03 am

You guys are nuts. And what does having David have to do with anything? He'll still be the WLB. The question is who are you putting next to him. Foster could be a monster in Mike Smiths defense. I know Kwon has a lot of fanboys on here, but lets not act like he's Ray Lewis. Passing on Foster because we have the great Kwon would be passing on Patrick Willis type prospect because we have the great Barrett Ruud. Oh wait....

This could very well give us the best LB corp in the league. Yeah, I said it. Not only that, give us plenty of flexibility and a very healthy rotation in the nickle package as well as depth at the position overall. Yeah, sure, not the sexiest "need filled", but so what.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:32 am

If Kwon is Barrett Ruud how can we have the best LB trio in the NFL?

Which of the 3 becomes the 2-down LB?

Foster may be a great LB. But too much risk at this point and not enouh value/upside at 19 when we already have 2 young dynamic LBs.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby MJW » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:50 am

In 2015, Kwon was the single most overrated Buccaneer. He was a huge liability against the run and missed way too many tackles.

In 2016, Kwon was the single most improved Buccaneers. His tackling, reaction speed, and focus all improved noticeably.

I do not see him getting bounced out of the MIKE job at this point.
Nor do I see us drafting a SAM at #19.

You can always make the case this regime is okay with dumping David. His play has slipped and he's making a lot of money. But is that really a priority in a draft loaded with DBs and TEs and pass rushers? It doesn't feel like it to me.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:55 am

They started blitzing David a lot later last season. I don't think that they are done with him yet.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:34 am

MJW wrote:Nor do I see us drafting a SAM at #19.


I agree with this if the logic that the SAM is a 2-down player like Daryl Smith was for us last season. The value just isn't there.

But a guy like Reddick is more than a 2-down SAM. His best attribute is rushing the passer would be a Bruce Irvin type of LB that is stout in the run as a 4-3 LB in base personnel and also a guy who gives you some heat off the edge on 3rd/passing downs.

We have a hole at SLB and you can never have enough EDGE rushers. A guy like Reddick is invaluable on a 53 man roster b/c he allows 1 less LB or DE taking up a roster spot on gameday.

Reddick-Kwon-LVD is a heck of LB corps and Reddick makes the base defense more physical. Reddick can be the 5th rusher when we blitz from base personnel keeping Kwon and LVD in coverage. Then drop Reddick down to rush w/ the 4 man D-line opposite Spence on passing situations.

Great value imo...
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Apr 21, 2017 10:49 am

DreadNaught wrote:
MJW wrote:Nor do I see us drafting a SAM at #19.


I agree with this if the logic that the SAM is a 2-down player like Daryl Smith was for us last season. The value just isn't there.

But a guy like Reddick is more than a 2-down SAM. His best attribute is rushing the passer would be a Bruce Irvin type of LB that is stout in the run as a 4-3 LB in base personnel and also a guy who gives you some heat off the edge on 3rd/passing downs.

We have a hole at SLB and you can never have enough EDGE rushers. A guy like Reddick is invaluable on a 53 man roster b/c he allows 1 less LB or DE taking up a roster spot on gameday.

Reddick-Kwon-LVD is a heck of LB corps and Reddick makes the base defense more physical. Reddick can be the 5th rusher when we blitz from base personnel keeping Kwon and LVD in coverage. Then drop Reddick down to rush w/ the 4 man D-line opposite Spence on passing situations.

Great value imo...

LVD is terrible in coverage though. I'd rather have LVD play that Reddick role (as you described) and Foster/Kwon in coverage.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:10 am

real bucs fan wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
I agree with this if the logic that the SAM is a 2-down player like Daryl Smith was for us last season. The value just isn't there.

But a guy like Reddick is more than a 2-down SAM. His best attribute is rushing the passer would be a Bruce Irvin type of LB that is stout in the run as a 4-3 LB in base personnel and also a guy who gives you some heat off the edge on 3rd/passing downs.

We have a hole at SLB and you can never have enough EDGE rushers. A guy like Reddick is invaluable on a 53 man roster b/c he allows 1 less LB or DE taking up a roster spot on gameday.

Reddick-Kwon-LVD is a heck of LB corps and Reddick makes the base defense more physical. Reddick can be the 5th rusher when we blitz from base personnel keeping Kwon and LVD in coverage. Then drop Reddick down to rush w/ the 4 man D-line opposite Spence on passing situations.

Great value imo...

LVD is terrible in coverage though. I'd rather have LVD play that Reddick role (as you described) and Foster/Kwon in coverage.


That is a fair point. LVD has shown weakness in coverage. But in your scenario w/ Foster it would force LVD into becoming the 2-down LB unless we did something dramatic w/ personnel like a 3-3-5, which is unlikely imo. So then the question becomes is it really valuable to draft a LB at 19 (Foster) that forces our $10m/yr LB (LVD) off the field 50% of the time?

If we draft Foster I want him at MLB. I love Kwon and think he's a badass. But MLB is where Foster needs to be plugging the run and chasing down anything on the perimeter. So where does that put Kwon? SLB? If so I think it reduces what he is as a LB since I also think Kwon is best utilized as a MLB. This is the reason Reddick is the better fit for this team. He's a natural SLB in a 4-3 and keeps Kwon and LVD in place.

Reddick is far superior rusher to any of those 3. LVD is an exciting blitzer b/c of his quickness, but is easily neutralized if accounted for. Reddick is guy that will dominate a TE to RB kept in to block. Check out some his tape from Temple, he's an beast off the edge, just undersized to play there every down as a DE.

So to me Reddick is the more valuable fit to this current roster. I agree 100% Foster is the better guy in coverage and running sideline to sideline. Both guys are very intriguing, I just think you can get all 3 LBs on the field more w/ Reddick b/c of what he gives you as an EDGE rusher so that we wouldn't have to change our scheme.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Doctor » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:16 am

Kwon looked really good rushing the passer last year.

I don't think you need to designate the "2-down" LB. It all comes down to whatever play is called and the best personnel to run it. Sometimes it will be LVD/Foster sometimes it will be Kwon/Foster sometimes Kwon/LVD.

If it's 3rd and short you'd keep LVD in, but in 3rd and long I'd pull LVD. And many other variations of this.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:30 am

Doctor wrote:Kwon looked really good rushing the passer last year.

I don't think you need to designate the "2-down" LB. It all comes down to whatever play is called and the best personnel to run it. Sometimes it will be LVD/Foster sometimes it will be Kwon/Foster sometimes Kwon/LVD.

If it's 3rd and short you'd keep LVD in, but in 3rd and long I'd pull LVD. And many other variations of this.


I completely disagree with this b/c I've never seen any team employ this strategy. We'll have our designated sub package personnel grouping that will include 2 LBs and barring injury or occasional rest it will be those same 2 guys.

Let's not conflate LBs blitzing w/ rushing the passer. Any LB with the athleticism of Kwon or LVD is going to look good blitzing, but do they beat blocks if accounted for? Reddick is guy that has played in the trenches and is adept at beating a designated blocker to get to the QB or ball carrier. He led CFB in TFLs last season. Exactly the type of traits you want in a SLB who plays close to the LOS in Mike Smiths offset 4-3u.

Also, the point remains that 1/3 (Kwon/Foster/LVD) will off the field 50% of the time when we are in nickel/sub package. So is it more valuable to draft a player at 19 that would greatly reduce the # of snaps for Kwon or LVD? In addition, who plays SAM in our base 4-3?

Once all those are answered, is that more valuable than a guy is a more natural fit at SLB (Reddick) which is a position need, that can also give us some juice as an EDGE rusher as a DE in nickel/sub situations. Thus keeping both Kwon and LVD in place.

I'm not arguing against Fotster the player. I think he's a fantastic ILB, I'm just playing it through and saying it would create some reshuffling schematically. Whereas you have a more natural fit and really good prospect in Reddick.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Apr 21, 2017 11:49 am

DreadNaught wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:LVD is terrible in coverage though. I'd rather have LVD play that Reddick role (as you described) and Foster/Kwon in coverage.


That is a fair point. LVD has shown weakness in coverage. But in your scenario w/ Foster it would force LVD into becoming the 2-down LB unless we did something dramatic w/ personnel like a 3-3-5, which is unlikely imo. So then the question becomes is it really valuable to draft a LB at 19 (Foster) that forces our $10m/yr LB (LVD) off the field 50% of the time?

If we draft Foster I want him at MLB. I love Kwon and think he's a badass. But MLB is where Foster needs to be plugging the run and chasing down anything on the perimeter. So where does that put Kwon? SLB? If so I think it reduces what he is as a LB since I also think Kwon is best utilized as a MLB. This is the reason Reddick is the better fit for this team. He's a natural SLB in a 4-3 and keeps Kwon and LVD in place.

Reddick is far superior rusher to any of those 3. LVD is an exciting blitzer b/c of his quickness, but is easily neutralized if accounted for. Reddick is guy that will dominate a TE to RB kept in to block. Check out some his tape from Temple, he's an beast off the edge, just undersized to play there every down as a DE.

So to me Reddick is the more valuable fit to this current roster. I agree 100% Foster is the better guy in coverage and running sideline to sideline. Both guys are very intriguing, I just think you can get all 3 LBs on the field more w/ Reddick b/c of what he gives you as an EDGE rusher so that we wouldn't have to change our scheme.


I think you misunderstood me. I was saying have LVD rush the passer on 3rd downs in the nickel D so he wouldn't leave the field. In essence the 3-3-5 D Cheb described with LVD rushing and McCoy/Ayers/Spence as the down lineman. David is very underrated as a pass rusher, people forget that in his best season he had 7 sacks in limited rush opportunities and 5+ sacks in both his years playing at Nebraska as well as 5 sacks last year.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby Naismith » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:03 pm

real bucs fan wrote:In essence the 3-3-5 D Cheb described with LVD rushing and McCoy/Ayers/Spence as the down lineman.


I'm definitely not an X's and O's expert but it seems like this unit is way too small up front.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby real bucs fan » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:31 pm

Naismith wrote:
real bucs fan wrote:In essence the 3-3-5 D Cheb described with LVD rushing and McCoy/Ayers/Spence as the down lineman.


I'm definitely not an X's and O's expert but it seems like this unit is way too small up front.


Not like Reddick is much bigger than LVD. Plus in this scenario you've got foster backing the line as well.
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Re: 40 days before Philly

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:43 am

Cheb wrote:I watched both of the Grover Stewart games available, and I can see why mdb is excited. He's big, he's strong, and he moves well for a man his size.

However, he isn't a good defensive lineman. He can't handfight, he plays with iffy leverage, sucks versus a double team, questionable pursuit effort. What he does have is a dynamite bullrush. He can move people, that's for sure. But as a nosetackle, he is very one-dimensional, even if that dimension is pretty good.

You know, the differences between a bullrush and a drive block are largely academic. If the Bucs drafted him, I would think long and hard about moving him over to offense and see how he does at guard. With his strength and physical attributes, he could be something special if he gets his technique down.



Just talk about these guys. Now Reuter has him going in the 4th round to the Chargers. What do you think about that?
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