Trump's Muslim Ban

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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:37 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
NYBF wrote:I have a hard time believing this guy was yelling "Allahu akbar!"



Why? Seems even more likely now.


LINK

The actual shooting suspect is 27-year-old Alexandre Bissonnette, a white French Canadian who is, by all appearances, a rabid anti-immigrant nationalist. A leader of a local immigration rights groups, François Deschamps, told a local paper he recognized his photo as an anti-immigrant far-right “troll” who has been hostile to the group online. And Bisonnette’s Facebook page – now taken down but still archived – lists among its “likes” the far right French nationalist Marine Le Pen, Islam critics Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, the Israeli Defense Forces, and Donald J. Trump (he also “likes” the liberal Canadian Party NDP along with more neutral “likes” such as Tom Hanks, the Sopranos and Katy Perry).
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby uscbucsfan » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:43 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Why? Seems even more likely now.


LINK

The actual shooting suspect is 27-year-old Alexandre Bissonnette, a white French Canadian who is, by all appearances, a rabid anti-immigrant nationalist. A leader of a local immigration rights groups, François Deschamps, told a local paper he recognized his photo as an anti-immigrant far-right “troll” who has been hostile to the group online. And Bisonnette’s Facebook page – now taken down but still archived – lists among its “likes” the far right French nationalist Marine Le Pen, Islam critics Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, the Israeli Defense Forces, and Donald J. Trump (he also “likes” the liberal Canadian Party NDP along with more neutral “likes” such as Tom Hanks, the Sopranos and Katy Perry).


Ok? Why wouldn't he yell "Allahu akbar!"? I think it's more likely that he would knowing now who he is.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:51 pm

I don't know if did or didn't for sure. It was FoxNews that reported that initially and it's foolish to believe anything from a single news outlet these days (sadly).

Seems irrelevant imo if he's not a Muslim, which seems to be the case.

This discussion is probably better suited for another thread either way.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby mightyleemoon » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:19 pm

He shouted...sarcastically?
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:27 pm

That's what I was thinking. Was he being ironic?


Is he a hipster?

(Does he have an Etsy store?)
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby uscbucsfan » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:42 pm

I can't tell if you are being serious or not...or maybe just because I am former military, but yelling "Allahu akbar!"at the "enemy" in some facet was fairly common.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:48 pm

Yeah, we get it.

But if the point is that someone yelled Allahu Akbar and that is evidence that this is Muslim on Muslim crime, that's where lines get crossed.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby uscbucsfan » Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:51 pm

Corsair wrote:Yeah, we get it.

But if the point is that someone yelled Allahu Akbar and that is evidence that this is Muslim on Muslim crime, that's where lines get crossed.


100% agree. Kinda my point from the beginning once the picture was released. Just because someone hears that, which doesn't even mean it was ever said, doesn't automatically mean it was a Muslim (obviously), but I didn't realize the original source was Fox News. If I paid attention or knew that from the beginning, I would have guessed it was likely not a Muslim.

It seems like every breaking news story recently is dangerously wrong with the first report. Things like the "riots" in Charleston or this...it's becoming so normal, that we expect it, and that's a terrible place for our media to be...this goes for both sides.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:02 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:It seems like every breaking news story recently is dangerously wrong with the first report. Things like the "riots" in Charleston or this...it's becoming so normal, that we expect it, and that's a terrible place for our media to be...this goes for both sides.


I agree. And I think that the networks are realizing it to some degree. Some more than others. I feel like CNN has been slow on the uptake, but they have had some bright shining moments as well. When they confronted Spicer at his first press conference and Conway during the Steele memo they got big points for fighting against the propaganda machine. When they had Debbie Wasserman-Shultz back on the airwaves they lost points. They are still chasing the Trump ratings machine and falling for every misdirection that's been floated.

Wolf Blitzer is still a partisan hack who gets way more credence than he should. But Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity are shameless in their bias as well. Megyn Kelly was a shining star for them.

I've gravitated to including a little BBC print, WSJ print and NPR (which is sadly probably going away).
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:23 pm

Trump has fired Acting U.S. Attorney General Sally Yates

In response to Yetes' earlier decision:

Directed Justice Department attorneys Monday not to defend President Trump's executive order refugee and immigration ban

She said she was not convinced that the executive order is lawful
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:27 pm

In Trump's world, people don't have honest policy disagreements. They "betray" him. That's an authoritarian impulse.
Last edited by Corsair on Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Rocker » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:28 pm

Methinks you're letting your admitted bias cloud your thinking on this one.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:52 pm

Apparently the AG is no longer insulated from partisan politics and is not allowed to act independent of the executive branch. An acting Attorney General was just fired over a single issue and the President was allowed to name his replacement without congressional overview.
Scary stuff.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:45 pm

And now Donald has fired the head of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:50 pm

Corsair wrote:Apparently the AG is no longer insulated from partisan politics and is not allowed to act independent of the executive branch. An acting Attorney General was just fired over a single issue and the President was allowed to name his replacement without congressional overview.
Scary stuff.


I read the DOJ legal counsel approved the legality of the order. If so, is a new POTUS not within his legal right to replace a temp AG? Was Yates confirmed by Senate?
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Four Verticals » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:23 pm

Can we just move to the riots (I guess we're pretty close here), multiple terrorist attacks, assassination attempts, etc. and just get it over with post haste. This is comical. :lol:
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Brazen331 » Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:52 pm

Corsair wrote:Apparently the AG is no longer insulated from partisan politics and is not allowed to act independent of the executive branch. An acting Attorney General was just fired over a single issue and the President was allowed to name his replacement without congressional overview.
Scary stuff.


Great stuff, Corsair. So this woman is some martyr who was acting without partisanship and was fired unjustly? Alright, if you cannot paste a report of her saying something similar about Obama's ban on Iraqis, a quote of her questioning the legality of that action, then this woman is full of **** and WAS behaving in a partisan manner.

She only has days left in her position and wanted to make a statement on the way out so she could be the toast of liberal cocktail parties it seems to me. I think she wanted to be terminated for insubordination, unless you can find that quote of her questioning Obama. But we both know it does not exist. The woman is a hypocritical, partisan hack.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:07 am

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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby sanka » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:07 am

It's "unprecedented" ....to have a US President who can equally piss off people whether dealing with domestic or foreign affairs.

Trump is now failing his first task....to protect American citizens...... he is now putting us in danger. It's hardly been 10 days and he has pissed off so many people..... Hopefully now my fellow Americans will appreciate Obama.... Under Obama US was respected and Americans were becoming cool again.... as Michelle said "We will now know what it fells like to live without hope".
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Brazen331 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:46 am

Corsair wrote:


I like the way she comports herself; she certainly has the look of an AG. She comes off as a much more impressive individual than Sessions in that clip.

But this does not really address whether or not she did this for political reasons and if there is really no difference from her and Sessions from a partisan ideological standpoint,

If she is really a strict Constitutionalist, with no agenda, a rather rare condition for a Liberal to suffer from, then she should behave no different under Trump than Obama. Seems like Obama can do the same thing Trump does and not get the same reaction.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Jan 31, 2017 4:21 am

Brazen, I know your echo chamber tells you Obama did the same thing, but adding more scrutiny to new applications is not the same thing as a travel ban. NBA and MLB are now having difficulty with games in Toronto because some players won't be able to go. There's a HUGE difference.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby mightyleemoon » Tue Jan 31, 2017 7:58 am

Brazen331 wrote:If she is really a strict Constitutionalist, with no agenda, a rather rare condition for a Liberal to suffer from


You're showing your hand here with your ignorance to the fact that conservatives are just as incompetent when it comes to interpreting the constitution with no agenda.

Well, at least any conservatives within the last 30 years or so. They're doing their best to pass liberals in the agenda department these days.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jan 31, 2017 9:54 am

bucfanclw wrote:Brazen, I know your echo chamber tells you Obama did the same thing, but adding more scrutiny to new applications is not the same thing as a travel ban. NBA and MLB are now having difficulty with games in Toronto because some players won't be able to go. There's a HUGE difference.


lol I know its early and what I'm about to say may be a little crass, but:

**** em?

Who cares about the temporary inconvenience of a couple of NBA/MLB teams/players. Like that's some horrifying reason to call this off. We're talking about a move that is more about an ideological stance (nationalism over religion). Who cares about some damn ball players. The stakes are the identity and strength of the republic. Fuckin NBA and MLB have forced missing entire (half)seasons before squabbling over paychecks.

I'd also like to remind everybody of US immigration policy over the past 100 years:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Origins_Formula

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Act_of_1965

The only difference was, there was no social media for people to bring their anecdotal stories to the fore-front to pull on peoples emotional heartstrings. Social media has a wonderful way of amplifying minority (not race or gender, etc) causes/occurrences. It's exactly why nobody predicted the Trump win. Because everybody's in their little internet bubble, completely divorced from reality.

Another thing:

Graph from UC Davis Riverside:
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Mind you, the phrase "melting pot" was spread in wide usage in the united states in 1908 when a play by the same name made the concept mainstream. Doesn't look like the US was very ethnically diverse, by today's standards, in 1908, yet American's still viewed it that way.

Further, if you're interested in an accidental historical parallel drawn by a very intelligent guy (2:00 mark):


I happened to be watching a couple of this guy's videos this weekend for fun (yes they're cheesy, and yes, I'm in full-on boring-ass dad mode). Mind you, this guy made this video 4 years ago, and has no concept of Trump, etc. But by all means, he's got what would be viewed today as a very "anti-Trump" bumper sticker on his laptop, "This machine kills fascists". And if you go to the 2:00 mark, he starts to draw the parallel I'm talking about. There's a large portion of this country that has steady woken up to the imperialist dealings of the US over the past 10-15 (thanks to the internet), so there's enough natural born citizens these days shouting "This country is an imperialist empire, we're killing everybody, we're bombing innocent people, **** this country, **** the USA, etc". I know because I was one of them. Believe me, I would have never imagined I would have the views of the world that I do now. But the world is ****. We ARE better. We ARE lucky to be born here. And there have been men and women over the past 250 years that have REALLY sacrificed, sacrificed everything in fact, to secure the freedoms this country allows its citizens. And we cannot be invaded from the inside out with a bunch of people who don't hold this country in the highest regard. It is truly an ideological battle. There's so much disdain for this country, not only from the outside, but from within, as we speak. Ya the border **** and the visa EO are hard laws, but seriously (and I cannot believe I'm actually saying this), if you don't like it, get out (lol). I know its simplistic, but sometimes these issues get distilled down to that very ideological essence. How many people in the US would actually go live in Africa? How many would willingly go live in Yemen? There's a reason everybody wants to be here. Ya this country isn't perfect, ya there's work to do. But there needs. to be. a degree. of reverence. That means putting your god's laws second. That means learning the language. That means integrating into society. That means making an effort to be a stand up citizen. That means being TRULY PROUD and TRULY THANKFUL for being here. Not just bitching about some inconvenience not being able to come here caused you. Sure, in 2100 patriotism/nationalism may be a cancer. But we're not even close, philosophically, as a species, to abandon our nation-states. The world is full of shitty people. So we cling to our tribal wars for now because all we deserve as a species, but if we're going to be at tribal war, I do not expect us to sit back and roll over and die off, just like every other great civilization on this planet (with the exception of maybe the chinese. they've been around forever. they deserve props. which again, sort of makes my point.). You may call me alarmist now. But demographics are demographics. We breed and come to social awareness on 20 year time scales. And people pass their ideals to their children. You may say I'm an alarmist now; the outcome will be delayed, but the battle is being fought right now.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby NYBF » Tue Jan 31, 2017 10:36 am

bucfanclw wrote:Brazen, I know your echo chamber tells you Obama did the same thing, but adding more scrutiny to new applications is not the same thing as a travel ban. NBA and MLB are now having difficulty with games in Toronto because some players won't be able to go. There's a HUGE difference.


MLS, too. And I wonder if it will affect NHL.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Rocker » Tue Jan 31, 2017 11:21 am

Great post, beard.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby mightyleemoon » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:17 pm

Rocker wrote:Great post, beard.


Totally.

"Shut up and be thankful for what you have!"

That's the mentality behind every great nation.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:34 pm

mightyleemoon wrote:
Rocker wrote:Great post, beard.


Totally.

"Shut up and be thankful for what you have!"

That's the mentality behind every great nation.


Care to comment on the actual substance of the 785 words, two context-providing wikipedia articles, a graph, and a historical metaphor that I put together, rather than a sarcastic response to the 9-word strawman you put together?
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby mightyleemoon » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:54 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
mightyleemoon wrote:
Totally.

"Shut up and be thankful for what you have!"

That's the mentality behind every great nation.


Care to comment on the actual substance of the 785 words, two context-providing wikipedia articles, a graph, and a historical metaphor that I put together, rather than a sarcastic response to the 9-word strawman you put together?


17 words.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:56 pm

mightyleemoon wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Care to comment on the actual substance of the 785 words, two context-providing wikipedia articles, a graph, and a historical metaphor that I put together, rather than a sarcastic response to the 9-word strawman you put together?


17 words.


Yes, you typed 17 words. You committed only 9 of them to your straw man. nevermind i'm not interested anymore lol
Last edited by beardmcdoug on Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:00 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
mightyleemoon wrote:
17 words.


Yes, you typed 17 words. You committed only 9 of them to your straw man. Nevermind dude, I'm not interested anymore

So he wasted half of his own time. Nice.
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