Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby HamBone » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:59 pm

That's why the ten was changed from global cooling to global warming to man made global warming and now climate change.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:54 pm

acaton wrote:Do I believe in climate change...yes there is mountains of evidence that clearly show that the climate on this planet has been undergoing change for millions of years. My brother screams, Florida will soon be under water due to the polar ice caps melting. I just point out that Florida has been underwater before and just look at the evidence of seafloors existing where small mountains now stand. Is man causing the current warm up (assuming there really is one) I doubt it.

Will the planet cool off if we allow our Gov to tax carbon in order to create yet another redistribution cash machine? I doubt it. I will give Al and SOME Progressives credit for the foresight and understanding in how easy it is to make a ton of cash on something that has been happening for centuries with or without man’s involvement...outstanding!

Whenever one can make two Google searches and find two credible reports that support either side of the debate, perhaps the truth lies elsewhere...or at least near the middle. My guess is taxing carbon wall not solve a damn thing but will make some Gov agencies very powerful, and some individuals above the law.


That's the basis of the lesser problem. Not that Climate change exists or is man made, but the appropriate response to such a phenomenon. The precautionary principle dictates that regardless of how realistic the cataclysmic predictions are, humanity should take appropriate steps to mitigate the risk if there is any possibility that it can happen. For example, we wear seat belts not because we expect to get in a crash, but we wear them to mitigate the potential risk of injury.

Individuals, businesses, governments, etc. are attempting to either ignore that risk in favor of self-interest, or even worse, profit or gain power in the response to the steps taken to mitigate the risk.

Buc2 has been able to quickly point out foolishness of doomsday scenarios intended to frighten the public into taking drastic measures, those people are obviously overemphasizing the importance of doing something for less than noble purposes. Conversely, Those who stand to lose the most from "going green" have equally manipulated a portion of the public into denying that such a phenomenon exists or is man made for the simple preservation of their self interest.

Lost in all of this is the simple science that demonstrates the absolute plausibility of global warming and its potential to alter the climate. Thus, the planet is beginning to choke to death on its own **** while we argue over money.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby acaton » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:11 pm

That is my point, the climate is changing always has. I just doubt man's activities are causing it. Like most people, I want to support things that make things cleaner and better for the environment, taxing carbon is just bullshit.

Well said MB.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby acaton » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:18 pm

HamBone wrote:That's why the ten was changed from global cooling to global warming to man made global warming and now climate change.


I remember my first chemistry prof telling us about the coming mini-ice age. This ice age was supposed to get to the great lakes just short of the Sputhern shores. Of course the thinking then was the pollution was predicted to reflect the sun's warmth causing a drastic cooling.

That theory/ guess went to hell.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:24 pm

acaton wrote:That is my point, the climate is changing always has. I just doubt man's activities are causing it. Like most people, I want to support things that make things cleaner and better for the environment, taxing carbon is just bullshit.

Well said MB.


Yeah, I don't support taxing carbon either. While taxation is an effective way of altering behavior, it is negative reinforcement. Much the same as the Obamacare tax on not having health insurance.

That being said, both sides HAVE to come together and at least agree that pollution is undesirable and that it could have serious consequences if not addressed.

I support the idea of cleaner energy because I want the planet to be cleaner, I want us to do it better, and I don't want to give money to my power company any more. I don't have the scientific knowledge to prove or disprove the predictions of climate scientists, therefore I concede that I do not have all the answers. Conversely, the climate gurus cannot be so presumptuous as to also be economists. They have sounded the warning bell, now it is up to others to sack up and tackle the problem with their respective expertise.

If we can develop cars that can go 0-60 in under 5 seconds while not using a drop of gas and have homes and businesses that don't need electrical and natural gas meters attached to them we should do it. Not because the world is going to end if we don't, but because we can and we should.

We should do the right thing because it's the right thing to do. All other reasons for or against be damned.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby acaton » Mon Feb 16, 2015 5:12 pm

Agreed.

I hope I am still alive when the technology breaks out from the current limitations.

Enjoyed it MB.

Out.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Corsair » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:00 pm

Scientists Politely Remind World That Clean Energy Technology Ready To Go Whenever

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CAMBRIDGE, MA—Stating that they just want to make sure it’s something everyone keeps in mind going forward, an international consortium of scientists gently reminded the world Wednesday that clean energy technologies are pretty much ready to go anytime. “We’ve got solar, wind, geothermal—we’re all set to move forward with this stuff whenever everyone else is,” said Dr. Sandra Eakins, adding that researchers are also doing a lot of pretty amazing things with biomass these days. “Again, we’re good to go on this end, so just let us know. You seriously should see these new hydrogen fuel cells we have. Anyway, just say the word, and we’ll start rolling it out.” At press time, representatives from the world’s leading economies had signaled that they would continue to heavily rely on fossil fuels until they had something more than an overwhelming scientific consensus to go on.Image
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby acaton » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:44 pm

Funny right there.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Feb 17, 2015 8:59 am

One of the better Onion articles.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Buc2 » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:11 am

Corsair wrote:What to Call a Doubter of Climate Change?


How about Climate heretic?
Or maybe the science isn't settled...

Small volcanic eruptions might eject more of an atmosphere-cooling gas into Earth’s upper atmosphere than previously thought, potentially contributing to the recent slowdown in global warming, according to a new study.

Scientists have long known that volcanoes can cool the atmosphere, mainly by means of sulfur dioxide gas that eruptions expel. Droplets of sulfuric acid that form when the gas combines with oxygen in the upper atmosphere can remain for many months, reflecting sunlight away from Earth and lowering temperatures. However, previous research had suggested that relatively minor eruptions—those in the lower half of a scale used to rate volcano “explosivity”—do not contribute much to this cooling phenomenon.

Now, new ground-, air- and satellite measurements show that small volcanic eruptions that occurred between 2000 and 2013 have deflected almost double the amount of solar radiation previously estimated. By knocking incoming solar energy back out into space, sulfuric acid particles from these recent eruptions could be responsible for decreasing global temperatures by 0.05 to 0.12 degrees Celsius (0.09 to 0.22 degrees Fahrenheit) since 2000, according to the new study accepted to Geophysical Research Letters, a journal of the American Geophysical Union.

These new data could help to explain why increases in global temperatures have slowed over the past 15 years, a period dubbed the ‘global warming hiatus,’ according to the study’s authors.

The warmest year on record is 1998. After that, the steep climb in global temperatures observed over the 20th century appeared to level off.


How can there be new data on science settled?
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby The Outsider » Tue Feb 17, 2015 3:39 pm

Because science as a rule is never settled.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Alpha » Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:44 pm

Climate change. No climate change. Whatthefuckever.

I live about 1 mile from the ocean. As long as this means that my home will soon be ocean-front property...then I'm all for it.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby acaton » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:12 am

Just goes to demonstrate that climate change, if handled properly can turn into a great retirement plan.

However, I am about 2.5 miles from the ocean so I'll need a bit more warmth.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Xandtar » Wed Feb 18, 2015 9:08 am

I'm a climate neutralist.

I don't really care because with all the billions of people in the world, nothing I do is going to make a difference anyway. That said, my wife makes me recycle, etc. so whatever.

But just for fun, there is a nice website which explains that some of the climate change is due to temperature gauges being in heat islands like Moscow or Tokyo which is technically not allowed, rural areas with no heat island effect are supposed to be used. Etc. etc., you can read up on it ad nauseum, this is the home of pause science such as it is.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:49 pm

For Buc2

Wei-Hock "Willie" Soon, a favorite scientist of climate-change deniers for his theory attributing global warming to variations in the sun's energy and not human activity, has accepted more than $1.2 million from the fossil-fuel industry in the last decade, the New York Times reports. He also failed to disclose that conflict of interest in most of his published papers.

Soon's corporate funding has been known for some time, but newly released documents, obtained by Greenpeace under the Freedom of Information Act, reveal just how close Soon is to the industry to which he lends his ostensibly objective support.

Corporate contributions, the Times reports, were pegged to specific papers:

The documents show that Dr. Soon, in correspondence with his corporate funders, described many of his scientific papers as "deliverables" that he completed in exchange for their money. He used the same term to describe testimony he prepared for Congress.

Soon, a researcher at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics, received $335,000 from Exxon Mobil, $274,000 from the American Petroleum Institute, and $230,000 from the Charles G. Koch Foundation, the Guardian reports. The documents reportedly show that the Kochs and other donors used an anonymous trust to give Soon another $324,000.


An inconvenient truth, I'd say
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Buc2 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:08 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
An inconvenient truth, I'd say


What a dumbass. Sucks to be him right now.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Buc2 » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:17 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
An inconvenient truth, I'd say


What a dumbass. Sucks to be him right now.


You know what's funny, MB? A lot of the stuff I post here I get from a couple of "deniers" from another website I frequent. I post that stuff here simply as a dissenting opinion. At the same time, I take the pro-warming stuff posted here (including your article on Soon), and post it over there. It's a good way to keep the debate alive and it flags articles on the subject I might miss if left to myself.

I honestly don't know what the entire truth of the matter is, but the subject is fascinating to me. I generally come down on the side of, right or wrong, we MUST take care of the one and only inhabitable planet we currently have access to. In that vain, it certainly doesn't hurt to curb as many pollutants as possible from entering our biosphere.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Buc2 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:25 am

Buc2 wrote:
Buc2 wrote:
What a dumbass. Sucks to be him right now.


You know what's funny, MB? A lot of the stuff I post here I get from a couple of "deniers" from another website I frequent. I post that stuff here simply as a dissenting opinion. At the same time, I take the pro-warming stuff posted here (including your article on Soon), and post it over there. It's a good way to keep the debate alive and it flags articles on the subject I might miss if left to myself.

I honestly don't know what the entire truth of the matter is, but the subject is fascinating to me. I generally come down on the side of, right or wrong, we MUST take care of the one and only inhabitable planet we currently have access to. In that vain, it certainly doesn't hurt to curb as many pollutants as possible from entering our biosphere.


The responses:

Ultra-conservative Koch brothers? They're Libertarians. The only question that matters here is, did he falsify any of his data, like the IPCC & their hired stooges have? If not, it doesn't matter where the money came from. It was necessary to counter the lies coming out of the U.N. etc.


Republicans To Investigate Climate Data Tampering By NASA
2:16 PM 02/20/2015

Are government climate agencies tampering with climate data to show warming? Some Republicans think so. California Republican Rep. Dana Rohrabacher says to expect congressional hearings on climate data tampering.

Rohrabacher is a senior member of the House Science, Space and Technology Committee, which has jurisdiction over NASA and other agencies that monitor the Earth’s climate.

Rohrabacher has long been critical of the theory of man-made global warming. Lately, the California Republican has criticizing NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration for allegedly tampering with temperature data to create an artificial warming trend. Such data is then used to justify regulations aimed at curbing fossil fuel use and other industrial activities.

Rohrabacher isn’t the only one to call for hearings on the science behind global warming. Oklahoma Republican Sen. Jim Inhofe has also promised to hold hearings on global warming data.

“We’re going to have a committee hearing on the science,” said Inhofe, who chairs the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee. “People are going to hear the other side of the story.”

For years, those skeptical of man-made global warming have argued that government agencies are altering raw temperature data to create a warming trend. Allegations of tampering have increased as satellite temperature readings show much less warming than land and ocean-based weather stations show.

Link for more.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Jonny » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:16 am

How would you guys react if the consensus among scientists within America shifted based on the political party that is in power?

In the future when Republicans come into power (Rand!!), if we see Environmental agencies operating on public money shift their stance towards "nope, global warming due to human intervention is a non issue", that would be devastating on several levels.

That would clearly mean that those agencies dependent on public money will fabricate data as their masters please. At this point you do not know what to stance you are to believe in. It would also create a huge amount of unnecessary distrust on the scientific community on other matters such as Evolution, GMO safety etc.

/Alex Jones
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Buc2 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 9:36 am

Jonny wrote:How would you guys react if the consensus among scientists within America shifted based on the political party that is in power?

In the future when Republicans come into power (Rand!!), if we see Environmental agencies operating on public money shift their stance towards "nope, global warming due to human intervention is a non issue", that would be devastating on several levels.

That would clearly mean that those agencies dependent on public money will fabricate data as their masters please. At this point you do not know what to stance you are to believe in. It would also create a huge amount of unnecessary distrust on the scientific community on other matters such as Evolution, GMO safety etc.

/Alex Jones


I'm more interested in the truth. If the truth means exposing the lies of previous administrations and the UN, so be it. I do not want the truth covered up just to assuage the public. If there was a lot of lying going on, I'd be more interested in exposing the liars and their motives to the American people and then worry about the "trust" damage control.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Jonny » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:25 am

Buc2 wrote:I'm more interested in the truth. If the truth means exposing the lies of previous administrations and the UN, so be it. I do not want the truth covered up just to assuage the public. If there was a lot of lying going on, I'd be more interested in exposing the liars and their motives to the American people and then worry about the "trust" damage control.


But we would not know what the truth really is at that point. Of course, if the Republican Presidential candidate is a man of integrity unlike Obama, I would tend to consider their version as truth.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Buc2 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:08 am

Jonny wrote:
Buc2 wrote:I'm more interested in the truth. If the truth means exposing the lies of previous administrations and the UN, so be it. I do not want the truth covered up just to assuage the public. If there was a lot of lying going on, I'd be more interested in exposing the liars and their motives to the American people and then worry about the "trust" damage control.


But we would not know what the truth really is at that point. Of course, if the Republican Presidential candidate is a man of integrity unlike Obama, I would tend to consider their version as truth.


Sounds like a Catch-22. Tough spot for a GOP admin to be in if that were to play out. But I'd rather them try to get the truth out there regardless of it might affect the public trust.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:13 am

Jonny wrote:How would you guys react if the consensus among scientists within America shifted based on the political party that is in power?

In the future when Republicans come into power (Rand!!), if we see Environmental agencies operating on public money shift their stance towards "nope, global warming due to human intervention is a non issue", that would be devastating on several levels.

That would clearly mean that those agencies dependent on public money will fabricate data as their masters please. At this point you do not know what to stance you are to believe in. It would also create a huge amount of unnecessary distrust on the scientific community on other matters such as Evolution, GMO safety etc.

/Alex Jones


Complete non sequitur.


....And Alex Jones is an idiot.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby lachisbackisback » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:16 pm

Buc2, you should probably inform your friend that the Koch brothers tried to co-opt the Libertarian Party around 35 years ago, due to fear that environmental taxes would bankrupt their business interests, with one of the brothers running. Since that wasn't effective, they have since moved on to starting fake grassroots movements like the Tea Party and various "concerned citizens" initiatives, buying judicial races and co-opting the Republican Party instead.

He's a bit out of date with that reference, and his inability to see why them being a hugely powerful corporation that advances political initiatives simply because they would go from being the 2nd most profitable business in the States to potentially bankrupt if they were taxed relative to the amount of pollution they directly dump into the environment is relevant makes him a bit of a dummy.

Jonny, I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to think that a complete 180 on the part of only American scientists wouldn't be noticed and exposed. Hence, I very much doubt anyone would go that route.... especially when 5 or 6 bribes in relation to 16,000 scientists in agreement worldwide still create an active discussion on the topic, with the added bonus of people like Buc2's friends, who will go to the grave knowing in their hearts that the bribes resulted in the truth.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Jonny » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:15 pm

lachisbackisback wrote:Jonny, I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to think that a complete 180 on the part of only American scientists wouldn't be noticed and exposed. Hence, I very much doubt anyone would go that route.... especially when 5 or 6 bribes in relation to 16,000 scientists in agreement worldwide still create an active discussion on the topic, with the added bonus of people like Buc2's friends, who will go to the grave knowing in their hearts that the bribes resulted in the truth.


Agreed. I have a huge amount of skepticism towards this one issue even with scientific consensus because of the way major corporations were able to save billions of dollars as tax avoidance due to credits offered by the current government for investing in renewable energy. I hope there is no tax money being wasted on the con artists working on Solar freakin Roadways, with Obama you never know, brb I'll have to check on that.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Buc2 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 1:50 pm

lachisbackisback wrote:Buc2, you should probably inform your friend that the Koch brothers tried to co-opt the Libertarian Party around 35 years ago, due to fear that environmental taxes would bankrupt their business interests, with one of the brothers running. Since that wasn't effective, they have since moved on to starting fake grassroots movements like the Tea Party and various "concerned citizens" initiatives, buying judicial races and co-opting the Republican Party instead.

He's a bit out of date with that reference, and his inability to see why them being a hugely powerful corporation that advances political initiatives simply because they would go from being the 2nd most profitable business in the States to potentially bankrupt if they were taxed relative to the amount of pollution they directly dump into the environment is relevant makes him a bit of a dummy.

Jonny, I don't think anyone would be stupid enough to think that a complete 180 on the part of only American scientists wouldn't be noticed and exposed. Hence, I very much doubt anyone would go that route.... especially when 5 or 6 bribes in relation to 16,000 scientists in agreement worldwide still create an active discussion on the topic, with the added bonus of people like Buc2's friends, who will go to the grave knowing in their hearts that the bribes resulted in the truth.


His response to your response:

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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby lachisbackisback » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:12 pm

Jonny, I think more money is on the table via not paying carbon taxes and the like (I referenced a notable example of that in my Koch material to Buc2), so I don't share your skepticism in that regard. The government can hand out money to corporations in a myriad of ways, so I don't think it's logical to think that they invented one that runs counter to the interests of the corporations in the first place by paying off scientists.

Buc2, based on his initial idiocy, he should stick to funny gifs entirely. What sort of website is it, anyhow?
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Buc2 » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:24 pm

lachisbackisback wrote:Jonny, I think more money is on the table via not paying carbon taxes and the like (I referenced a notable example of that in my Koch material to Buc2), so I don't share your skepticism in that regard. The government can hand out money to corporations in a myriad of ways, so I don't think it's logical to think that they invented one that runs counter to the interests of the corporations in the first place by paying off scientists.

Buc2, based on his initial idiocy, he should stick to funny gifs entirely. What sort of website is it, anyhow?


Get off your high horse, know-it-all.
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby PrimeMinister » Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:27 pm

If we aren't going to be on high horses what kind of site is this???
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Re: Climate chg/global warming/climate disruption/carbon...

Postby Alpha » Tue Feb 24, 2015 10:17 pm

Buc2 wrote:Get off your high horse, know-it-all.


Since you're the guy posting the gif of Nicholson "pseudo-masturbating", I guess we'll never have to worry about you taking the high road, sport.

Now...if you wanna troll around in the gutter...then I'm your huckleberry.
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