Police Brutality in the US

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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:54 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
I agree that painting with a broad brush often obscures the actual problem at hand.

The issue with policing is a systemic issue not a local problem. There are a lot of studies over the past 25 years that bear this out. I don’t know what would fix this, but I can identify the problem. We need the accusations of police misconduct to be investigated by an entity that the public trusts to be fair.

The problem is not that there are bad apples, but that these offenders often go unpunished. Every group, police included, has ***holes, racists and general crap human beings alongside great men and women. The difference is the ***hole/bigot who becomes a cop has the authority to take a life and something is broken in the way we choose whether or not to even investigate this person. Instead of focusing on how to keep bad apples out (I don’t think it’s possible) we need to prosecute them when they show themselves.

Think back to all those high profile cases of murder by cop, police brutality etc. If those officers were prosecuted and sentenced we wouldn’t see the mistrust and hatred we see for cops now. So it’s not just the officers the public mistrusts but the system that somehow protects the bad officers.

I’m typing on my phone so I apologize for auto corrections etc. I can never get all my thoughts together for longer posts while on my phone.


The cases where the officer is prosecuted often go unpublicized or barely receive attention. It happens, twice in the last year in SC (the Charleston case was big, but the State Trooper in Columbia received 0 press).

A lot of the cases are grouped in to this vile behavior are actually not punishable as mentioned in the immigration thread. Things like the Michael Brown case, the woman who was facebook tweeting while holding a gun and her baby, the Tusla shooting, off the top of my head aren't illegal shootings, they aren't evil individuals being protected in the system, but they are grouped together by this movement, which also is a detriment to real issues and injustice taking place. These things are protected by Graham v. Connor/Objective reasonableness and as long as we arm a force of people and put them in these situations, they will be protected in these situations. While the terrible injustices occur far too often than they should and likely more happens than we know of, it's still extremely rare and unfair to point at all Police.


Thank you for your reply. I disagree with some of your post and will post why later today when I get a moment.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:59 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
The cases where the officer is prosecuted often go unpublicized or barely receive attention. It happens, twice in the last year in SC (the Charleston case was big, but the State Trooper in Columbia received 0 press).

A lot of the cases are grouped in to this vile behavior are actually not punishable as mentioned in the immigration thread. Things like the Michael Brown case, the woman who was facebook tweeting while holding a gun and her baby, the Tusla shooting, off the top of my head aren't illegal shootings, they aren't evil individuals being protected in the system, but they are grouped together by this movement, which also is a detriment to real issues and injustice taking place. These things are protected by Graham v. Connor/Objective reasonableness and as long as we arm a force of people and put them in these situations, they will be protected in these situations. While the terrible injustices occur far too often than they should and likely more happens than we know of, it's still extremely rare and unfair to point at all Police.


Thank you for your reply. I disagree with some of your post and will post why later today when I get a moment.


I'm open to discuss this. I'm not just a blind police defender as there are multiple instances where I condemn and will even describe what actions should have been taken or how I feel is best to fix things, but I feel it is important to portray a fair perspective from an LEO stand point. Some don't care to hear about it and want to drop a one-liner or straw man argument, but then this just falls in the same place as public shootings and gun control. If there can't be an open discussion and compromises, nothing will ever be done.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:06 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
Thank you for your reply. I disagree with some of your post and will post why later today when I get a moment.


I'm open to discuss this. I'm not just a blind police defender as there are multiple instances where I condemn and will even describe what actions should have been taken or how I feel is best to fix things, but I feel it is important to portray a fair perspective from an LEO stand point. Some don't care to hear about it and want to drop a one-liner or straw man argument, but then this just falls in the same place as public shootings and gun control. If there can't be an open discussion and compromises, nothing will ever be done.


Agreed on all points. We have to be able to discuss and even be okay saying “Hey we may not agree but I better understand and respect your position”.

I don’t think we all have to agree to come to workable solutions.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:08 pm

NYBF wrote:There's no way they let someone named Mohammed get away with killing a white girl.



http://www.startribune.com/minneapolis- ... 477405923/
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Buc2 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:48 pm

NYBF wrote:
NYBF wrote:There's no way they let someone named Mohammed get away with killing a white girl.



http://www.startribune.com/minneapolis- ... 477405923/

Yeah. That's the reason why he was convicted. :roll:
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:50 pm

Yeah, given his previous posts, I would of think NYBF would be happy that a police officer is being held accountable...maybe not though
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:26 pm

Buc2 wrote:

Yeah. That's the reason why he was convicted. :roll:


He was convicted already? New meaning to "speedy trial."
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Tue Mar 20, 2018 8:27 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Yeah, given his previous posts, I would of think NYBF would be happy that a police officer is being held accountable...maybe not though


Very happy someone is finally being held accountable. I can only think of one other officer that's been charged with murder, though. And he walked. We'll see if this is different.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:48 am

NYBF wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Yeah, given his previous posts, I would of think NYBF would be happy that a police officer is being held accountable...maybe not though


Very happy someone is finally being held accountable. I can only think of one other officer that's been charged with murder, though. And he walked. We'll see if this is different.


This dude got charged with 3rd degree murder... which is like... super rare.

Looks like this is the statute:

Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.


Certainly firing a 'shot in the dark' constitutes an act eminently dangerous to others. I actually think they won't convict him on murder in the third degree though because they have to show he had a 'depraved mind' which will be tough. Looks like the murder charge is window dressing, and he'll get his manslaughter sentence.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:09 am

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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:21 am

Zarniwoop wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/unarmed-black-man-stephon-clark-172106486.html

Tragic.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Mar 22, 2018 11:26 am

Zarniwoop wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/unarmed-black-man-stephon-clark-172106486.html


Very sad. It seems like the local PD and authorities are doing what they can in terms of transparency after the fact, which is positive sign in how these incidents are handled.

I thought the Mayor's statement was on point. It's tough to second guess the actions of those officers without knowing more. The vast majority of police shootings (this one included) stem from the same root cause of not listening and following commands. I don't mean to say doing so will ALWAYS prevent these from occurring or that willfully ignoring LE commands automatically justifies LE firing at you, just that by ignoring LE commands the situation becomes escalated and thus more dangerous for everyone involved.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby PrimeMinister » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:11 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/unarmed-black-man-stephon-clark-172106486.html


Very sad. It seems like the local PD and authorities are doing what they can in terms of transparency after the fact, which is positive sign in how these incidents are handled.

I thought the Mayor's statement was on point. It's tough to second guess the actions of those officers without knowing more. The vast majority of police shootings (this one included) stem from the same root cause of not listening and following commands. I don't mean to say doing so will ALWAYS prevent these from occurring or that willfully ignoring LE commands automatically justifies LE firing at you, just that by ignoring LE commands the situation becomes escalated and thus more dangerous for everyone involved.


The root cause in many of these cases is bias (not racism). The officer is in control of the situation, but often in these cases bias leads them to acting out of fear. If an officer feels their only response to a citizen disobeying orders is to kill that citizen they do not deserve to be an officer. They’re a danger to everyone they’re afraid of.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Mar 23, 2018 11:36 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Very sad. It seems like the local PD and authorities are doing what they can in terms of transparency after the fact, which is positive sign in how these incidents are handled.

I thought the Mayor's statement was on point. It's tough to second guess the actions of those officers without knowing more. The vast majority of police shootings (this one included) stem from the same root cause of not listening and following commands. I don't mean to say doing so will ALWAYS prevent these from occurring or that willfully ignoring LE commands automatically justifies LE firing at you, just that by ignoring LE commands the situation becomes escalated and thus more dangerous for everyone involved.


The root cause in many of these cases is bias (not racism). The officer is in control of the situation, but often in these cases bias leads them to acting out of fear. If an officer feels their only response to a citizen disobeying orders is to kill that citizen they do not deserve to be an officer. They’re a danger to everyone they’re afraid of.


That's fair and I agree there is truth in that. I believe my point supports that in that ignoring LE commands creates a natural bias in that the suspect doesn't respect LE thus may be willing to go to even more extreme measures to prevent apprehension so increased fear is natural as the LEO is not in control of the situation when the suspect is fleeing and/or ignoring commands.

I agree with that 3rd sentence 100%. LE has to continue to get better at ROE and specifically applying deadly force when dealing with suspects that are not cooperative. But it's a very slippery slope and cops deserve the right protect their own lives. I get the 'this is what that signed up for' argument, but that doesn't mean the should be forced to be bullet shields either.

None of us what to see these types of incidents occur, just like we don't want to see dead cops. Citizens and LE need to continue to communicate to avoid the escalations b/c imo that when the vast majority of police shooting occur.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:05 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/unarmed-black-man-stephon-clark-172106486.html


Very sad. It seems like the local PD and authorities are doing what they can in terms of transparency after the fact, which is positive sign in how these incidents are handled.



Police said Clark advanced on them with an object in his hand.

“Fearing for their safety,” the officers began firing at Clark, hitting him multiple times, the department said. Two officers each fired 10 shots at Clark, though it was not immediately clear how many times he was struck.


Stephon Clark, an unarmed black man gunned down by Sacramento police officers in his grandmother's backyard, was shot six times in back and two times in the side, according to an independent autopsy released Friday.


Sneaky SOB, turning around and advancing on the cops to set them up...
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:31 am

Be nice, he's just out breaking windows
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:29 am

mdb1958 wrote:Be nice, he's just out breaking windows


So that makes it OK to shoot him in the back?
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Buc2 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:45 pm

And sometimes the police officer does exactly what he's supposed to do according to his training.



The story...
https://www.lmtonline.com/neighborhood/ ... 792088.php
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Brazen331 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:02 pm

Buc2 wrote:And sometimes the police officer does exactly what he's supposed to do according to his training.



The story...
https://www.lmtonline.com/neighborhood/ ... 792088.php


I’m sure NYBF would argue that the officer overreacted and that this is an unjustified instance of police brutality.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby bucfanclw » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:12 pm

Brazen331 wrote:
Buc2 wrote:And sometimes the police officer does exactly what he's supposed to do according to his training.



The story...
https://www.lmtonline.com/neighborhood/ ... 792088.php


I’m sure NYBF would argue that the officer overreacted and that this is an unjustified instance of police brutality.

Looked like a legit shooting. What about this video makes you think NYBF would say that?
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby PrimeMinister » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:42 pm

That’s a legit shooting. Nothing should happen to the officer.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:48 pm

Brazen331 wrote:I’m sure NYBF would argue that the officer overreacted and that this is an unjustified instance of police brutality.




This is the kind of bullshit that makes this board so tedious at times
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Brazen331 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:08 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:I’m sure NYBF would argue that the officer overreacted and that this is an unjustified instance of police brutality.




This is the kind of bullshit that makes this board so tedious at times


I guess you haven’t been accused of desiring more dead kids by BZ’s version of David Hogg.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:41 am

Brazen331 wrote:I’m sure NYBF would argue that the officer overreacted and that this is an unjustified instance of police brutality.


You are such a stupid **** I am astonished you have not yet been killed doing simple day to day tasks like breathing.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:43 am

Buc2 wrote:And sometimes the police officer does exactly what he's supposed to do according to his training.



The story...
https://www.lmtonline.com/neighborhood/ ... 792088.php


Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I think the officer showed incredible restraint not firing the second round of shots until he raised the gun again, even though he would have been beyond justified putting him on his ass right away.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:05 am

NYBF wrote:
Buc2 wrote:And sometimes the police officer does exactly what he's supposed to do according to his training.



The story...
https://www.lmtonline.com/neighborhood/ ... 792088.php


Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I think the officer showed incredible restraint not firing the second round of shots until he raised the gun again, even though he would have been beyond justified putting him on his ass right away.


don't know if there's a more apt use of that phrase. dumb **** got exactly what he asked for.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:18 am

NYBF wrote:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


Is committing vandalism, B&E, then subsequently evading the police a stupid game?

I'm not saying that this unarmed guy in Sacramento deserved to be shot, not at all. But I do agree with that statement you made and imho his actions put him in a situation where LEO's were put in a situation where life and death decisions are made. The more I read and watch the videos from that incident the more I think it's a ROE issue and that is common thread in these incidents.

I think some re-evaluation around ROE makes the most sense. Many times these officers are working in pairs, so maybe a solution is for one of the LEOs to be equipped with non-lethal ammo (they'll still have their regular side arm also) so in these situations where it's not clear if the assailant is armed or not and the LEO is firing first out of fear than they can subdue the subject via non-lethal means.

The obvious downside is some cop will shoot rubber pellets and the assailant will fire back with real bullets, but the other LEOs and even the cop w/ the non-lethal ammo can then switch b/c at that point the gunmen has basically committed suicide by LE. Again, the non-lethal means of initial engagement would end once a firearm is confirmed to be in possession of the suspect.

Non-lethal means of engagement isn't a new concept unfortunately. Just like in the gun debate it addresses a symptom instead of the root issue. Even when things like tasers and rubber bullets are used there are still issues of excessive force/police brutality.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:21 am

*sigh*

We're really going to compare a guy who pointed a gun directly at a cop to an unarmed person who had their back turned to the police?

Have fun.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:48 am

Yeah Dread that’s not a comparison even worth debating.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:39 am

I wasn't comparing the shootings themselves to one another as I believe police shootings are unique to one another to one degree or another. I was making a point to people like NYBF, who seemingly never place a shred of accountability on the victims and ALL of the blame on the officer regardless of unique specifics of each individual situation.

In hindsight I should've just posted the question at the beginning and left it at that.
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