Police Brutality in the US

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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:57 am

I'm just waiting for an officer to shoot down a jaywalker and DN to come explain that some of the blame needs to fall on the jaywalker. I mean, they did break the law, after all.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:09 pm

bucfanclw wrote:I'm just waiting for an officer to shoot down a jaywalker and DN to come explain that some of the blame needs to fall on the jaywalker. I mean, they did break the law, after all.

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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Buc2 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:21 pm

NYBF wrote:
Buc2 wrote:And sometimes the police officer does exactly what he's supposed to do according to his training.



The story...
https://www.lmtonline.com/neighborhood/ ... 792088.php


Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I think the officer showed incredible restraint not firing the second round of shots until he raised the gun again, even though he would have been beyond justified putting him on his ass right away.

Agreed. I really felt bad for the cop to be honest. You can hear his erratic and heavy breathing. The fear/adrenaline really gave me an idea of the emotion he was feeling at that moment. It made that situation much more real. It's no wonder these men & women have to be certified mentally fit by a psychologist before they can return to street duty.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:27 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I'm just waiting for an officer to shoot down a jaywalker and DN to come explain that some of the blame needs to fall on the jaywalker. I mean, they did break the law, after all.


Damn it. I was going for some hyperbole, but here we are...
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Pirate Life » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:18 pm

Buc2 wrote:And sometimes the police officer does exactly what he's supposed to do according to his training.



The story...
https://www.lmtonline.com/neighborhood/ ... 792088.php


Crazy story... made crazier by the dude calmly walking down the road while this was going down. You can see him strolling through the parking lot across the street when it switches to the body cam video. Either gunshots are a common sound around there or dude just didn't care.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Buc2 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:52 pm

Pirate Life wrote:
Buc2 wrote:And sometimes the police officer does exactly what he's supposed to do according to his training.



The story...
https://www.lmtonline.com/neighborhood/ ... 792088.php


Crazy story... made crazier by the dude calmly walking down the road while this was going down. You can see him strolling through the parking lot across the street when it switches to the body cam video. Either gunshots are a common sound around there or dude just didn't care.

The car that was driving up the street towards them cared. He reversed back the way he came when he saw what was going down. :lol:
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby RedLeader » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:10 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:

Damn it. I was going for some hyperbole, but here we are...


Where.. exactly are we? lol.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:34 am

NYBF wrote:*sigh*

We're really going to compare a guy who pointed a gun directly at a cop to an unarmed person who had their back turned to the police?

Have fun.


Ok I just watched the Stephon Clark video for the first time - have you seen it?

Has anyone actually watched the video of this one? The one that includes the cut up of the nigh-vision view of the chopper?

I've had a history of siding with the civilians with these types of shooting - the charleston shooting, the philando castile shooting, that guy who got straight up executed in the hotel hallway (in vegas I believe) because he couldn't play twister exactly the way the manlet cop wanted him to...

...but with the charleston shooting, you had a guy just running away slowly in broad day light, and he gets shot in the back. the cops were obviously in no threat - they decided to be judge, jury, and carry out their sentence right there in broad day light. the cops were wrong

...with philando castile, he told them he had a gun, was complying with the officer the entire time, he gave the officer his license, and in a split second, a misinterpretation of castile's movement lead to the officer shooting the guy point blank with his baby in the back seat. Castile SHOULD have just not moved, or done anything, so as to not put out any mixed signals (I think he was just reaching for his insurance, because you can see he gives the officer something small first, the officer looks at it and stands there waiting for something else) - but within the context of castile complying, TELLING the officer he had a guy, the officer was over the line by killing him right there

... the vegas one is the most egregious - that was an execution, no other way to look at it. the guy was doing his best to comply, was on the ground, and got shot in the top of the head.


but with the stephon clark shooting...

cops are responding to breaking and entering... at night. they find the guy. he turns and runs. he hops a fence. he gets cornered, and in the mix cops think he's reaching for a gun and they blast him. he's got shots in his back because they fired about 20 bullets at him after he's laying on the ground. that's completely overkill, but I digress...


but what made me go watch the video this morning was I was listening to NPR on the way in and they had a segment about the shooting. All I had heard about the Stephon Clark shooting up until this morning was that "he was shot in the back in his grandma's backyard", and people are pissed off

I'm imagining some dude chillin in his back yard, maybe grillin by himself, hangin around in the middle of the day, cops roll up, mistake him for a B&E perp (because he's black), draw guns on him, he turns away from them with his hands up, and they shoot him.

"Stephone Clark shot in the back by police in his grandma's backyard"

The NPR segment they had a black woman on saying she and her little boy watched the video together, and she starts crying describing what her son asked her when they watched the video, saying her son asked her, "so if I'm stopped by the cops... what am I supposed to do... put my hands up or just drop down". She's sobbing as she relays this story.

Here's what you tell him: don't break into cars in the middle of the night. don't run from the cops. don't jump fences to get away from the cops. don't get yourself into a corner and start acting suspiciously. Stop. Stand there with your hands up and follow instructions clearly. 9,999 times out of 10,000 you're going to get out alive if you do that. (the vegas hallway is the 1) And if you're not doing anything wrong, 9,900 out of 10,000 times you're not going to jail. But if you start running from the cops, in the middle of the night, you're just expanding that grey area for the police. From their point of view, you're: A) desperate enough in life to be out stealing, B) desperate enough in the moment to run from the police, which makes it a pretty easy logical jump to imagine that you're also, C) desperate enough to start shooting at the police. Don't make the logical jump so obvious. Just stop moving. Put your hands up.

In the end, I obviously think there are solutions out there, rubber bullets, all that - but there is a two way relationship here. You have a responsibility to play by the rules in society. If you are stopped by the authorities, it is your responsibility to remove any suspicion and comply 100%. It is part of living in a civilized society. We have police in the first place because there are bad actors out there, looking to take advantage of innocent people. Always has, always will. So a police force is a necessity to maintain order. So interact with them accordingly. And at the same time, the police should be trained better to deescalate situations more productively. But while we ride this change back to "normal" (I think body cams, etc are going to help alot with curbing the 30-40 year trend of increased militarization of the police force that we've seen, and restore some balance and accountability)... let's just try to remember to act in good faith and take responsibility for your actions - on both sides, with the tension of the relationship in mind at all times. Otherwise, the lack of "precision" with calling each event what it truly is only serves to muddy the truth and creates more overreaction from both sides in the long run.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:17 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
cops are responding to breaking and entering... at night. they find the guy. he turns and runs. he hops a fence. he gets cornered, and in the mix cops think he's reaching for a gun and they blast him. he's got shots in his back because they fired about 20 bullets at him after he's laying on the ground. that's completely overkill, but I digress...


That might work if he had ANY shots in his front. One shot through the front of his chest, he spins, falls as the officers continue to shoot. OK, I get it. If there was just one shot the didn't enter through his side or his back.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:21 am

NYBF wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
cops are responding to breaking and entering... at night. they find the guy. he turns and runs. he hops a fence. he gets cornered, and in the mix cops think he's reaching for a gun and they blast him. he's got shots in his back because they fired about 20 bullets at him after he's laying on the ground. that's completely overkill, but I digress...


That might work if he had ANY shots in his front. One shot through the front of his chest, he spins, falls as the officers continue to shoot. OK, I get it. If there was just one shot the didn't enter through his side or his back.


did you watch the video? here's washingtonpost's version that I watched:

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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:43 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
NYBF wrote:
That might work if he had ANY shots in his front. One shot through the front of his chest, he spins, falls as the officers continue to shoot. OK, I get it. If there was just one shot the didn't enter through his side or his back.


did you watch the video? here's washingtonpost's version that I watched:



Yeah. My favorite part was after he was on the ground for 5 minutes with officers staring at him the entire time and seeing absolutely zero signs of any possible movement, the one officer suggests bringing in a non-lethal just in case he's pretending.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:32 am

NYBF wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
did you watch the video? here's washingtonpost's version that I watched:



Yeah. My favorite part was after he was on the ground for 5 minutes with officers staring at him the entire time and seeing absolutely zero signs of any possible movement, the one officer suggests bringing in a non-lethal just in case he's pretending.


Yeah, I know, that part is utterly ridiculous- what of the rest?
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:52 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
NYBF wrote:
Yeah. My favorite part was after he was on the ground for 5 minutes with officers staring at him the entire time and seeing absolutely zero signs of any possible movement, the one officer suggests bringing in a non-lethal just in case he's pretending.


Yeah, I know, that part is utterly ridiculous- what of the rest?


There was nothing I saw in the video that made it appear as if the suspect was advancing on them or reaching for anything. I'm not saying that didn't happen, but by the time the chopper swings around and you can see him the shots are already being fired, and the body camera appears to be mostly blocked by the officer holding his gun. And they never identified themselves as cops.

From what I've seen of the chopper footage, it looks like this is the same person they were following all along. So I'll assume he was the guy actually breaking the windows. But I still have not seen a single thing that justifies being shot 6 or 7 times in the back.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:26 am

DreadNaught wrote:I wasn't comparing the shootings themselves to one another as I believe police shootings are unique to one another to one degree or another. I was making a point to people like NYBF, who seemingly never place a shred of accountability on the victims and ALL of the blame on the officer regardless of unique specifics of each individual situation.

In hindsight I should've just posted the question at the beginning and left it at that.

People don’t blame the victims because even if you are selling loose cigarettes or running away from the police, you shouldn’t be shot or choked to death.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:43 am

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:I wasn't comparing the shootings themselves to one another as I believe police shootings are unique to one another to one degree or another. I was making a point to people like NYBF, who seemingly never place a shred of accountability on the victims and ALL of the blame on the officer regardless of unique specifics of each individual situation.

In hindsight I should've just posted the question at the beginning and left it at that.

People don’t blame the victims because even if you are selling loose cigarettes or running away from the police, you shouldn’t be shot or choked to death.


Guess that depends who you're talking to.

mdb1958 wrote:Be nice, he's just out breaking windows
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:35 am

Ken Carson wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:I wasn't comparing the shootings themselves to one another as I believe police shootings are unique to one another to one degree or another. I was making a point to people like NYBF, who seemingly never place a shred of accountability on the victims and ALL of the blame on the officer regardless of unique specifics of each individual situation.

In hindsight I should've just posted the question at the beginning and left it at that.

People don’t blame the victims because even if you are selling loose cigarettes or running away from the police, you shouldn’t be shot or choked to death.


Exactly the point.

Pointing a gun at an officer should = death
Breaking windows and running from the police should = jail.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby PanteraCanes » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:19 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:People don’t blame the victims because even if you are selling loose cigarettes or running away from the police, you shouldn’t be shot or choked to death.


Exactly the point.

Pointing a gun at an officer should = death
Breaking windows and running from the police should = jail.



So I don't know the entire situation so what I am going to say is more of a general statement.

I assume this is happening in some kind of residential area. Having someone they know has committed crimes and is running away. What steps need to be taken to make sure the person running away doesn't get into a civilian residence and harm or take hostage an innocent person? Conversely there is also precautions that need to be taken that a stray projectile does not harm those same people.


Also I agree with what was said above. The headline was spun in a way to make you think its a nice Sunday afternoon that the guy is BBQing at a family event and gets rolled up on.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:39 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:People don’t blame the victims because even if you are selling loose cigarettes or running away from the police, you shouldn’t be shot or choked to death.


Exactly the point.

Pointing a gun at an officer should = death
Breaking windows and running from the police should = jail.


If you wait until a gun is pointed at you than you're already too late. As someone that has been through these simulations countless times I can tell you it doesn't work that way and LE is not trained that way for good reason. If a suspect is running from LE and gets cornered in and they don't immediately keep their hands empty and visible there is a chance they could be shot at. I've watched various videos of that Sacramento incident and the LEOs were in pursuit of a suspect that was committing a felony. They had been told by the chopper that the suspect likely had some type of object that he was breaking windows with. When cornered the suspect didn't have the empty-visible hands and the LEOs make a split second decision that after the fact I'm sure they regret. But what if it was a gun? This would've been by the book, no? That is the point here. The LEOs had a split second to decide whether to hold their ground and potentially be shot at by a suspect that had already committed multiple crimes and repeatedly demonstrated to be non-compliant. Those cops didn't know in that split second they made the decision to fire that it was his grandmas house or that it was a cell phone in his hand instead of gun. They just chased an alleged felon through a neighborhood to the point he was cornered in a backyard trying to access a door. His hand goes up and it has an object in it (it's night time) and the LEOs made a decision in that moment.

That suspect made multiple terrible decisions that night leading up to him being shot. The LEOs made one bad (in hindsight) split second decision and are getting all the blame after the fact. It's a damn tragedy that could've been easily avoided. Identifying how it could've been avoided is not victim blaming imo as I haven't seen where people have said he deserved to die.

Is it ok to have a more nuanced discussion and mention that good policing is a two-street? That there are actions a person can and should avoid as to not escalate the situation w/ LE? We rightfully talk about the various things the police should do differently to avoid these types of shootings, and that is great. But when someone mentions that maybe running from the police and or otherwise not complying is not wise it gets met with 'victim blaming'. Maybe it's just me, but I feel it's possible to want LE to be better while also discussing how these incidents escalate to that point from both sides.
Last edited by DreadNaught on Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:45 am

DN ~ as you know you and I have disagreed a lot on this issue in the past....nevertheless that was a very good post...particularly the last two paragraphs
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:49 am

DreadNaught wrote:If you wait until a gun is pointed at you than you're already too late.


Did you watch the video above where the officer waited until he saw a gun and fired?

DreadNaught wrote:This would've been by the book, no? That is the point here.


Isn't part of "by the book" identifying yourself as a police officer?

DreadNaught wrote: But when someone mentions that maybe running from the police and or otherwise not complying is not wise it gets met with 'victim blaming'.


You literally followed my post saying the person who pulled the gun on the cop got what he deserved was comparable to what happened to Stephon Clark.

DreadNaught wrote:
NYBF wrote:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


Is committing vandalism, B&E, then subsequently evading the police a stupid game?
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:00 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:DN ~ as you know you and I have disagreed a lot on this issue in the past....nevertheless that was a very good post...particularly the last two paragraphs


Thanks bud. I'm not trying to absolve bad policing or deflect LE accountability. They are and should be held to the highest standard and I get that. There have been police shootings like Castile and that kid in SC running away from the cop (among others) that are totally indefensible when it comes to the use of force.

But based on what I've seen and read (kudos to the local Police Chief in Sacramento for making the info public quickly) this was tragic, but defensible shooting. Sometimes that is the way it goes unfortunately and imo it should be discussed how situations like this one could have been avoided so that a persons life isn't determined by a split second decision as to whether it's a gun or something else in their hand.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:14 pm

NYBF wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:If you wait until a gun is pointed at you than you're already too late.

Did you watch the video above where the officer waited until he saw a gun and fired?

Again, that is not how it works. You're just playing MMQB.


NYBF wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:This would've been by the book, no? That is the point here.

Isn't part of "by the book" identifying yourself as a police officer?

Clark was being pursued through the neighborhood w/ sirens, flashing lights, and even a chopper overhead tracking him. Is your argument that he didn't realize it was LE? :roll:


NYBF wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:But when someone mentions that maybe running from the police and or otherwise not complying is not wise it gets met with 'victim blaming'.

You literally followed my post saying the person who pulled the gun on the cop got what he deserved was comparable to what happened to Stephon Clark.

You implied I was comparing the shootings, which I get. That is why I clarified it for everyone my next post where I "literally" stated it wasn't comparable.

I was attempting to get you to see the Clark shooting from more than one perspective is all.
DreadNaught wrote:
NYBF wrote:Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Is committing vandalism, B&E, then subsequently evading the police a stupid game?

DreadNaught wrote:I wasn't comparing the shootings themselves to one another as I believe police shootings are unique to one another to one degree or another. I was making a point to people like NYBF, who seemingly never place a shred of accountability on the victims and ALL of the blame on the officer regardless of unique specifics of each individual situation.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby NYBF » Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:26 pm

Looking at the security videos from the police shooting in NY yesterday, it appears as though the cops were probably in the right there.

https://nydn.us/2GUrBQP
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:12 pm

NYBF wrote:Looking at the security videos from the police shooting in NY yesterday, it appears as though the cops were probably in the right there.

https://nydn.us/2GUrBQP


It's more about LE being able to justify a shooting as defensible, which in this case I'd agree.

It's still very unfortunate as this guy was obviously mentally ill and waving around a silver object like it was a gun.

Ideally I'd like to see more non-lethal means of force (rubber bullets, taser) used initially when possible and doesn't otherwise endanger the lives of the LEOs on scene. People will still complain about the use of those, but less unarmed people would be dead in the process. Which imo is one of main of objectives around this issue.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:16 pm

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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby The Outsider » Fri Apr 20, 2018 4:36 pm




Lol Jesus Christ do you think they got him?

While that was a justified shooting, the officers that fired though, I mean, come on those rounds cost money.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Apr 20, 2018 5:34 pm

If you watch closely as he gets tased he grabs his gun and unloads it, but he cant aim it because of the shock.

I think saying ------------- what---- you gonna shoot me? Is not a good way of thinking.
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Re: Police Brutality in the US

Postby The Outsider » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:59 pm

mdb1958 wrote:If you watch closely as he gets tased he grabs his gun and unloads it, but he cant aim it because of the shock.

I think saying ------------- what---- you gonna shoot me? Is not a good way of thinking.


Your point?
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