Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:53 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
TheChefO wrote:
For such a confident bunch that will easily skate to victory over unlikable Trump, they sure are crawling out of the woodwork ...



That seems like a pretty weak claim.

If people think they are the best candidate they should join, regardless of how strong/weak their party is.


Sure ... why not ... I can see why some may feel their policy views aren't represented by the current batch and thus need to throw their hat in the ring ... If that isn't the case, then it seems to me to be boiling down to elect-ability to beat Trump. This being the goal, sit back and watch, root on the sidelines or endorse one and help their campaign.

I wonder which unique policy proposals will be offered by Mr. Holder?

Holder’s coverup of documents on behalf of Obama, who asserted executive privilege to withhold the information from Congress, led to him being the first-ever and only sitting Attorney General of the United States to be held in contempt of Congress. The U.S. House in 2012 voted Holder into both civil and criminal contempt of Congress over the Fast and Furious scandal, just one of many scandals that plagued Holder’s Department of Justice.


Related:

Favorable / Unfavorable

Donald Trump: 44 / 54 percent

Joe Biden: 43 / 50 percent

Bernie Sanders: 41 / 54 percent

Elizabeth Warren: 42 / 44 percent

Kamala Harris: 27 / 46 percent

Pete Buttigieg: 27 / 34 percent

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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby deltbucs » Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:59 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
I don't have a link to his personal description of the plan. But I got this information from both Fox News and the Intercept, both ends of the spectrum.



ok thanks, i'll poke around for it. I have heard him at times mention many (but not all) of the things you described.

If anyone can stand reading more than a headline about someone on the other team...

https://theintercept.com/2019/11/07/san ... n-ice-cbp/

Like maybe just a tiny bit of nuance such as
To break up ICE and CBP, under Sanders’s platform, their functions would be redistributed to other federal agencies. Under a Sanders administration, “deportation, enforcement, border and investigatory authority would return to the Department of Justice,” naturalization and citizenship authority would go to the State Department, and customs authority would return to the Treasury.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby deltbucs » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:00 pm

True story!

MSNBC Poll Finds Support For Bernie Sanders Has Plummeted 2 Points Up


https://politics.theonion.com/msnbc-pol ... 1839538968
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Brazen331 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:20 pm

deltbucs wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

ok thanks, i'll poke around for it. I have heard him at times mention many (but not all) of the things you described.

If anyone can stand reading more than a headline about someone on the other team...

https://theintercept.com/2019/11/07/san ... n-ice-cbp/

Like maybe just a tiny bit of nuance such as
To break up ICE and CBP, under Sanders’s platform, their functions would be redistributed to other federal agencies. Under a Sanders administration, “deportation, enforcement, border and investigatory authority would return to the Department of Justice,” naturalization and citizenship authority would go to the State Department, and customs authority would return to the Treasury.


Please. He is banning all deportations. Bernie Sanders is a fucktard.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:27 pm

After reading that article and looking at Sanders website and other articles on his view, I don’t see anything that original quote got wrong apart from halting all deportations — though his website does say there will be a moratorium on deportations in the near term



Like most of the D candidates who claim they aren’t open borders Sanders hasn’t laid out a policy for border enforcement or enforcement within the mainland or anything he would do vis a vis the processing of asylum seekers and caravans.. Indeed the article even says he would no longer conduct workplace raids as an enforcement tool



If someone has a link to his ideas on these issues I mentioned I’d be happy to read them
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Brazen331 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:36 pm

I got it wrong: it's not 50,000 climate migrants the first year. It is a minimum of 50,000 climate migrants the first year. I wonder how many in the second? Has he specified where these climate migrants are supposed to come from yet.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:30 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:After reading that article and looking at Sanders website and other articles on his view, I don’t see anything that original quote got wrong apart from halting all deportations — though his website does say there will be a moratorium on deportations in the near term



Like most of the D candidates who claim they aren’t open borders Sanders hasn’t laid out a policy for border enforcement or enforcement within the mainland or anything he would do vis a vis the processing of asylum seekers and caravans.. Indeed the article even says he would no longer conduct workplace raids as an enforcement tool



If someone has a link to his ideas on these issues I mentioned I’d be happy to read them

Then read it again.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:35 pm

Here’s the section I read. Can you highlight the part that I’m apparently missing about border enforcement and his plan to secure our border from illegal immigrants? Specifically, which parts will be aimed at making it more difficult to cross the border illegally or disincentivizing people from attempting to cross. And secondly, enforcement once within the mainland (more than 100 miles from the border). To be clear, I’m not asking anything related to asylum seekers - I agree with a few of his thoughts on improving that process.

I’d be more than happy to read through it. As you know I hate Trumps immigration plan


https://berniesanders.com/issues/welcom ... erica-all/


(Or any other article or speech he has given on the concerns I listed in my original post...it doesn’t have to be his website)
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:33 pm

See, I hate it when you make me do your homework for you. So you don't get full credit. :P

The border will be enforced. It just won't be in the way the xenophobes had in mind.

Stop all construction of the racist and ineffective wall on the U.S.-Mexico Border and instead rely on cost-effective and innovative methods to counter the real threats of drug importation and human trafficking, not manufactured ones targeting the most vulnerable.


Refocus border enforcement on stemming the flow of firearms drugs at ports of entry that have contributed to the opioid epidemic


Now I know that's completely inadequate for this crowd, but its perhaps the most comprehensive immigration reform proposal in American history. I know you guys don't like the idea of authentic Mexican food, but immigrants are gonna immigrate. I would like to to see better language for guest workers who comprise the bulk of these so-called "illegals", but by herding them to legal points of entry, the smugglers and cartels Chef wants to go to war with (Is that the solution for EVERYTHING?) are left for the border patrol to deal with as they were intended to.

Republicans have exactly ZERO solutions for what brings about this migration in the first place, Bernie is looking to stabilize the hemisphere rather than maintain the 100+ years of banana wars that create these caravans in the first place. This is called solving problems.

Bernie will also acknowledge the history of U.S. intervention in the South and Central American region, as well as overseas, often in support of authoritarian regimes that brutally repressed their own people, and engage with human rights defenders throughout the hemisphere to promote freedom and dignity for all.


Negotiate trade deals that strengthen, not undermine, the rights of workers in the United States and abroad, and oppose any new agreement that do not meet adequate labor standards.

Restore and increase aid to Central and South American nations, work to strengthen human rights, and fund programs to curb corruption, political repression, violence, and poverty.


That aught to give you boys something to chew on for a while.

Anybody gonna watch the impeachment on PBS?
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:38 pm

And Castro is a bitch if he doesn't endorse Bernie when he drops out.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:08 am

PrimeMinister wrote:
MJW wrote:
He's wrong on the first count, and he's 92 years old with a bad heart.

Liz Warren is just awful, but she has Bernie's platform, she's not part of the Greatest Generation, and she appeals to women voters. She has a much better chance of winning the General. Anyone being honest with Bernie has to have explained this to him by this point. He's a symbol, not a candidate. She's a candidate.


Elizabeth runs on all of Bernie’s policies, but what if Bernie doesn’t believe she will actually see them through? Why is it on Bernie to concede so his opponent can win? If he truly believes he is the best for this country he should run all the way (as long as the American people still want him). If he doesn’t believe that then drop out.

All the same for Elizabeth Warren.


On the first point, if Bernie doesn't believe Liz is a "true believer," I'd love for him to say so and explain why he feels that way. Is that unreasonable?

In the meantime, if what Bernie believes about himself and his chances isn't realistic, he should hardly be lauded for his delusion.

Hey, don't get me wrong. I love this. Bernie or Liz are nightmares for me. I hope they both stay in right into the convention, and we get the idiot we know or the idiot we knew for eight years.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:17 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:See, I hate it when you make me do your homework for you. So you don't get full credit. :P

The border will be enforced. It just won't be in the way the xenophobes had in mind.

Stop all construction of the racist and ineffective wall on the U.S.-Mexico Border and instead rely on cost-effective and innovative methods to counter the real threats of drug importation and human trafficking, not manufactured ones targeting the most vulnerable.


Refocus border enforcement on stemming the flow of firearms drugs at ports of entry that have contributed to the opioid epidemic


Now I know that's completely inadequate for this crowd, but its perhaps the most comprehensive immigration reform proposal in American history. I know you guys don't like the idea of authentic Mexican food, but immigrants are gonna immigrate. I would like to to see better language for guest workers who comprise the bulk of these so-called "illegals", but by herding them to legal points of entry, the smugglers and cartels Chef wants to go to war with (Is that the solution for EVERYTHING?) are left for the border patrol to deal with as they were intended to.

Republicans have exactly ZERO solutions for what brings about this migration in the first place, Bernie is looking to stabilize the hemisphere rather than maintain the 100+ years of banana wars that create these caravans in the first place. This is called solving problems.

Bernie will also acknowledge the history of U.S. intervention in the South and Central American region, as well as overseas, often in support of authoritarian regimes that brutally repressed their own people, and engage with human rights defenders throughout the hemisphere to promote freedom and dignity for all.


Negotiate trade deals that strengthen, not undermine, the rights of workers in the United States and abroad, and oppose any new agreement that do not meet adequate labor standards.

Restore and increase aid to Central and South American nations, work to strengthen human rights, and fund programs to curb corruption, political repression, violence, and poverty.


That aught to give you boys something to chew on for a while.

Anybody gonna watch the impeachment on PBS?




I’m sorry, I simply don’t see that as anything like a detailed plan...stuff like “cost effective and innovative methods to counter the real threat of drug importation and human trafficking” is politician talk. If he has plans to stop either of those two things I’m all for it.

However, what you posted doesn’t address the concern of illegal immigrants crossing the border.

There’s not a single republican plan I like and I certainly don’t Bernie’s efforts here either....in fact, what you posted seems to suggest the flow of non-violent criminals is a low concern for him


What’s the latest estimate? Something like 11 million illegal immigrants in the US? I don’t see a real effort in any of his proposals to deter more or to enforce the border.


It’s cool if you or him don’t think illegal crossings are a big deal. I’m not interested in arguing that concept. Your post took issue with my claim that he has no real plan at border enforcement or enforcement within the US. Nothing you posted contradicts that claim in my opinion.


Again, if he has ideas on how to reduce the number of illegal border crossings I’m all ears.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:21 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I’m sorry, I simply don’t see that as anything like a detailed plan...stuff like “cost effective and innovative methods to counter the real threat of drug importation and human trafficking” is politician talk. It doesn’t address the concern of illegal immigrants crossing the border.


Bernie has goals, not plans. "People shouldn't be homeless in the richest country in the world, so let's end homelessness" is a goal. Or more accurately, a dream. It's not a plan.

Warren has plans but they don't hold up to any scrutiny when adults evaluate their solvency and efficacy.

Trump doesn't have plans, goals, or dreams. He has tweets that are forgotten as quickly as they're sent.

To quote the greatest Joker, this town deserves a better class of criminal.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:26 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:See, I hate it when you make me do your homework for you. So you don't get full credit. :P

The border will be enforced. It just won't be in the way the xenophobes had in mind.





Now I know that's completely inadequate for this crowd, but its perhaps the most comprehensive immigration reform proposal in American history. I know you guys don't like the idea of authentic Mexican food, but immigrants are gonna immigrate. I would like to to see better language for guest workers who comprise the bulk of these so-called "illegals", but by herding them to legal points of entry, the smugglers and cartels Chef wants to go to war with (Is that the solution for EVERYTHING?) are left for the border patrol to deal with as they were intended to.

Republicans have exactly ZERO solutions for what brings about this migration in the first place, Bernie is looking to stabilize the hemisphere rather than maintain the 100+ years of banana wars that create these caravans in the first place. This is called solving problems.





That aught to give you boys something to chew on for a while.

Anybody gonna watch the impeachment on PBS?




I’m sorry, I simply don’t see that as anything like a detailed plan...stuff like “cost effective and innovative methods to counter the real threat of drug importation and human trafficking” is politician talk. If he has plans to stop either of those two things I’m all for it.

However, what you posted doesn’t address the concern of illegal immigrants crossing the border.

There’s not a single republican plan I like and I certainly don’t Bernie’s efforts here either....in fact, what you posted seems to suggest the flow of non-violent criminals is a low concern for him


What’s the latest estimate? Something like 11 million illegal immigrants in the US? I don’t see a real effort in any of his proposals to deter more or to enforce the border.


It’s cool if you or him don’t think illegal crossings are a big deal. I’m not interested in arguing that concept. Your post took issue with my claim that he has no real plan at border enforcement or enforcement within the US. Nothing you posted contradicts that claim in my opinion.


Again, if he has ideas on how to reduce the number of illegal border crossings I’m all ears.

You never even read the link you posted.

You're on your own.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:33 am

As I said, maybe you think that stuff talks about securing the border, but I don’t. I’m cool with that.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:36 am

MJW wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I’m sorry, I simply don’t see that as anything like a detailed plan...stuff like “cost effective and innovative methods to counter the real threat of drug importation and human trafficking” is politician talk. It doesn’t address the concern of illegal immigrants crossing the border.


Bernie has goals, not plans. "People shouldn't be homeless in the richest country in the world, so let's end homelessness" is a goal. Or more accurately, a dream. It's not a plan.

Warren has plans but they don't hold up to any scrutiny when adults evaluate their solvency and efficacy.

Trump doesn't have plans, goals, or dreams. He has tweets that are forgotten as quickly as they're sent.

To quote the greatest Joker, this town deserves a better class of criminal.



Have you read any of Warren’s “white papers” (as an academic I use that term very loosely for her stuff). Some are pretty funny reads

(Until you realize she’s polling 2nd right now)



————

In one of them she rails about how the government has provided soo many subsidies to farmers (which most on here agree with).....wanna guess her solution? Guaranteeing farmers a “fair” price. You cant make stuff like that up...lol
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:39 am

Zarniwoop wrote:As I said, maybe you think that stuff talks about securing the border, but I don’t. I’m cool with that.

Of course you don't.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby deltbucs » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:42 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:You never even read the link you posted.

You're on your own.

Lol
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:45 am

deltbucs wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:You never even read the link you posted.

You're on your own.

Lol

I'm tired of holding their hands.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Nov 09, 2019 12:56 am

Let’s see if others view that link as anything resembling a plan to secure the border. Maybe I am indeed wrong. Who knows? If everyone else sees it as a plan, I’ll go with the consensus.


If you ask me does Bernie have a plan on student loans and higher education, I would say yes (though I wouldn’t agree with it). If you ask me if Bernie has a plan on healthcare I would again say yes (though I wouldn’t agree with it). If you ask me if Bernie has a wage floor plan, I would say yes (though I wouldn’t agree with it). Etc etc. he seems to have plans aimed specifically at many, many things — rent control, housing, jobs, etc. Even on the closely related concept of asylum seekers he seems to have laid out his plans much more clearly and in detail (he talks about not separating families, speeding up the process, etc)


I simply don’t see any of that on his website or the link that was posted earlier or indeed anything he has ever said on this issue a plan for enhanced border security against illegal immigration.


I think he, like just about every politician on border security, talks fast and loose and is using the issue to drive votes.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby HamBone » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:37 am

Zarniwoop wrote:Let’s see if others view that link as anything resembling a plan to secure the border. Maybe I am indeed wrong. Who knows? If everyone else sees it as a plan, I’ll go with the consensus.


If you ask me does Bernie have a plan on student loans and higher education, I would say yes (though I wouldn’t agree with it). If you ask me if Bernie has a plan on healthcare I would again say yes (though I wouldn’t agree with it). If you ask me if Bernie has a wage floor plan, I would say yes (though I wouldn’t agree with it). Etc etc. he seems to have plans aimed specifically at many, many things — rent control, housing, jobs, etc. Even on the closely related concept of asylum seekers he seems to have laid out his plans much more clearly and in detail (he talks about not separating families, speeding up the process, etc)


I simply don’t see any of that on his website or the link that was posted earlier or indeed anything he has ever said on this issue a plan for enhanced border security against illegal immigration.


I think he, like just about every politician on border security, talks fast and loose and is using the issue to drive votes.


You should know by now that you can’t say anything that can be interpreted as being critical of Bernie...or some folk will flip out.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Buc2 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:58 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:


I’m sorry, I simply don’t see that as anything like a detailed plan...stuff like “cost effective and innovative methods to counter the real threat of drug importation and human trafficking” is politician talk. If he has plans to stop either of those two things I’m all for it.

However, what you posted doesn’t address the concern of illegal immigrants crossing the border.

There’s not a single republican plan I like and I certainly don’t Bernie’s efforts here either....in fact, what you posted seems to suggest the flow of non-violent criminals is a low concern for him


What’s the latest estimate? Something like 11 million illegal immigrants in the US? I don’t see a real effort in any of his proposals to deter more or to enforce the border.


It’s cool if you or him don’t think illegal crossings are a big deal. I’m not interested in arguing that concept. Your post took issue with my claim that he has no real plan at border enforcement or enforcement within the US. Nothing you posted contradicts that claim in my opinion.


Again, if he has ideas on how to reduce the number of illegal border crossings I’m all ears.

You never even read the link you posted.

You're on your own.

I read it. His one BIG plan to combat illegal immigration is to decriminalize it. lmao!
Like MJW said, he has a dream, not a plan.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:18 am

I’m completely with zarni on this...

MB, you can’t possibly sincerely read those “plans” as anything other than politician speak.


Here’s the thing: Bernie used to talk about securing the border and used to talk about protecting the wages of US workers

But at this point, with him full well knowing that this is his last shot, he’s afraid to actually stand on a principle that he once had because he knows how far left and extreme the landscape on the dem side has gotten. So what did he do to his website and his immigration talking points? He’s completely backed down to the crowd and turned them into arbitrary fluff.

He and warren are essentially out in this bidding war to see who can be the most extreme because that’s where the dem populace is at these days. And Bernie being on his last shot has gone full blown pander mode.


That’s why I’m off the Bernie train... for the longest time he was the one guy that wasn’t a puppet for the DNC, who actually stood on his principles

And now he’s so desperate in this one last shot, that he’s playing not to lose, and he’s become something almost just as dangerous as an establishment puppet, he’s become a flimsy puppet to the increasingly-extremist masses
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:32 am

It's fair and important to note that very few Presidents actually DO anything, at least domestically. They appoint judges, which is huge. There's the odd executive order that actually impacts mainstream America. More than that, it takes a supermajority, or something close to it. Otherwise, they're symbolic.

Bernie, Liz, Kamala - their big sweeping visions are lies. Either because they know if they try, they'll be swatted down by Congress, or because they don't intend on trying. We tend to put a lot of stock into which one it is for each candidate, but it usually works out the same.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby bucfanclw » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:32 am

I'd love for one of the candidates to include ending the "war on drugs" as a step of immigration reform. Take the power away from the cartels by making their product a legally traded good and they will start to fall apart.

#crazylibideasfromclewy
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:32 am

bucfanclw wrote:I'd love for one of the candidates to include ending the "war on drugs" as a step of immigration reform. Take the power away from the cartels by making their product a legally traded good and they will start to fall apart.

#crazylibideasfromclewy


#libertariancosign

It's too bad neither the police industrial complex nor the trial lawyers will ever let this happen.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:34 am

bucfanclw wrote:I'd love for one of the candidates to include ending the "war on drugs" as a step of immigration reform. Take the power away from the cartels by making their product a legally traded good and they will start to fall apart.

#crazylibideasfromclewy


Yeah I’m with you on that
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:45 am

I think nearly everyone is on that train
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby MJW » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:50 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I think nearly everyone is on that train


Except literally anyone with the power to do anything about it. Go figure.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:54 am

There’s a few in Congress that say they want to do it ... who knows if they would.


It largely comes down to what type of drugs too. Many support legalizing recreational stuff like marijuana but oppose other things like opioids and narcotics


There’s certainly room for many differing ideas here
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