Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:04 am

It would be instant death for any Muslim to go around singing Islam is evil. Its common for people to live a lie their whole life so you two arent going to get no touch me I'm special button.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:12 am

deltbucs wrote:LOL!! This one got funny!

The old "disagreeing with the murderous Israeli government means you're an anti-Semite." I get a chuckle every time!

I think that calling the Israeli government murderous is about as disingenuous as it gets. Murderous implies that they are killing a peaceful population of civilians without reason. I’m 1000% certain that you couldn’t remotely make a convincing case that they are simply out there persecuting innocent civilians. But please try.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:32 am

Ken Carson wrote:
deltbucs wrote:LOL!! This one got funny!

The old "disagreeing with the murderous Israeli government means you're an anti-Semite." I get a chuckle every time!

I think that calling the Israeli government murderous is about as disingenuous as it gets. Murderous implies that they are killing a peaceful population of civilians without reason. I’m 1000% certain that you couldn’t remotely make a convincing case that they are simply out there persecuting innocent civilians. But please try.


You have a really slanted view of that situation. Everytime someone cites Israeli murders or when they begin a round of confrontation you ignore it or justify it.

Both sides have been murderous. Both sides have killed innocents. Both sides justify it in their own ways. Picking Palestinian or condemning both is not in anyway anti-Semitic. Israel doesn't get a free pass from criticism simply because 75% of their population is Jewish.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:47 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I think that calling the Israeli government murderous is about as disingenuous as it gets. Murderous implies that they are killing a peaceful population of civilians without reason. I’m 1000% certain that you couldn’t remotely make a convincing case that they are simply out there persecuting innocent civilians. But please try.


You have a really slanted view of that situation. Everytime someone cites Israeli murders or when they begin a round of confrontation you ignore it or justify it.

Both sides have been murderous. Both sides have killed innocents. Both sides justify it in their own ways. Picking Palestinian or condemning both is not in anyway anti-Semitic. Israel doesn't get a free pass from criticism simply because 75% of their population is Jewish.

I never said they get a free pass. I said calling the government “murderous” is disingenuous because it is. In the last 60 years, Israel has been invaded multiple times with the goal being the eradication of every Jew in the region.

And I’ve said it before, but any attempt at equivocation is absurd. Imagine the remnants of one of the Native American tribes started launching missiles at US cities. Imagine they sent their pregnant women onto school buses and blew them up, then named streets after them. How long do you think the United States should tolerate that? I can tell you how long it would last...
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:50 am

Might makes right.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:55 am

Ken Carson wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
You have a really slanted view of that situation. Everytime someone cites Israeli murders or when they begin a round of confrontation you ignore it or justify it.

Both sides have been murderous. Both sides have killed innocents. Both sides justify it in their own ways. Picking Palestinian or condemning both is not in anyway anti-Semitic. Israel doesn't get a free pass from criticism simply because 75% of their population is Jewish.

I never said they get a free pass. I said calling the government “murderous” is disingenuous because it is. In the last 60 years, Israel has been invaded multiple times with the goal being the eradication of every Jew in the region.

And I’ve said it before, but any attempt at equivocation is absurd. Imagine the remnants of one of the Native American tribes started launching missiles at US cities. Imagine they sent their pregnant women onto school buses and blew them up, then named streets after them. How long do you think the United States should tolerate that? I can tell you how long it would last...

The NA analogy is great. People would side with NAs in attacking the US in any manner they could, but they wouldn't be anti Christian in sympathizing with them.

That's my point.

I support Israel as I've said before, but not supporting them or being on the Palestinian side doesn't make someone anti-Semitic.

Good post.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:55 am

I love the assumption that Indians would have no justification to fight the US government.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:00 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:I love the assumption that Indians would have no justification to fight the US government.



Ken can you clarify ... do you think what MB says here?
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:01 am

I was about to do the same, Zarni
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:07 am

uscbucsfan wrote:I was about to do the same, Zarni



Though MB didn’t pose it as a question .... I think the underlying question is a good one.

Do people think Native Americans would have justification to fight and kill to get their land back?

Then the follow up .....

If they did kill to attempt to get their land back, do people think the US govt would have justification to kill in return
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:11 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I love the assumption that Indians would have no justification to fight the US government.



Ken can you clarify ... do you think what MB says here?

Is this a trick question?

I think that if NAs started launching terrorist attacks on US civilians that the US government should take out the terrorists. I think that if members of the tribe were harboring the terrorists that the US government should still take out the terrorists.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:13 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

Ken can you clarify ... do you think what MB says here?

Is this a trick question?

I think that if NAs started launching terrorist attacks on US civilians that the US government should take out the terrorists. I think that if members of the tribe were harboring the terrorists that the US government should still take out the terrorists.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. It's arrogant to assume Israel was minding its business when all of a sudden.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:13 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

Ken can you clarify ... do you think what MB says here?

Is this a trick question?

I think that if NAs started launching terrorist attacks on US civilians that the US government should take out the terrorists. I think that if members of the tribe were harboring the terrorists that the US government should still take out the terrorists.


I don’t know if it’s a trick question from MB but it’s not from me.

Do you (and others) think Native Americans would have justification to fight to get their land back?
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:14 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I was about to do the same, Zarni



Though MB didn’t pose it as a question .... I think the underlying question is a good one.

Do people think Native Americans would have justification to fight and kill to get their land back?

Then the follow up .....

If they did kill to attempt to get their land back, do people think the US govt would have justification to kill in return

They certainly are allowed to fight and try to get their land back. Just like the Basques in Spain or the whoever in wherever. And the governments of the countries in which they rise up in should try to peacefully resolve the conflict. But if the self-elected governments of the rebels say that they won’t stop until they kill every American/Spanish/whateverish then I hope those governments would protect their citizens and eliminate the opposition.

Edit: The fact that Israel hasn’t done the “eliminate the opposition” part of this equation is, for me, an exercise in extreme restraint. My whole point is that there is no way the US would tolerate a Hamas or Palestinian authority on its borders. Zero chance. And yet despite Israel holding off on turning the Gaza Strip into a parking lot, people like delt cry about how the people of Gaza live in apartheid. If those folks lived a couple miles from his house and felt the same way about him as they feel about Jews, he’d be singing a different tune. So obvious, but some can’t see it.
Last edited by Ken Carson on Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:17 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

Though MB didn’t pose it as a question .... I think the underlying question is a good one.

Do people think Native Americans would have justification to fight and kill to get their land back?

Then the follow up .....

If they did kill to attempt to get their land back, do people think the US govt would have justification to kill in return

They certainly are allowed to fight and try to get their land back. Just like the Basques in Spain or the whoever in wherever. And the governments of the countries in which they rise up in should try to peacefully resolve the conflict. But if the self-elected governments of the rebels say that they won’t stop until they kill every American/Spanish/whateverish then I hope those governments would protect their citizens and eliminate the opposition.


Thanks ... I figured that is where you would be
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:20 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:They certainly are allowed to fight and try to get their land back. Just like the Basques in Spain or the whoever in wherever. And the governments of the countries in which they rise up in should try to peacefully resolve the conflict. But if the self-elected governments of the rebels say that they won’t stop until they kill every American/Spanish/whateverish then I hope those governments would protect their citizens and eliminate the opposition.


Thanks ... I figured that is where you would be

I’d like to hear from anyone who would be in a different camp. Because I’m pretty sure that all of us were celebrating the death of a terrorist in Syria. Am I supposed to believe that you’d all be fine if he was chilling in St. Petersburg with a thirty thousand of his closest friends?
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:26 am

I’m in your camp as it pertains to my question ... I would think some NA have “justification“ to try to get their lands back ... but likewise I would have no problem with the US govt meeting violence with violence if that is the vehicle groups used to win their lands back

(For the record this doesn’t mean I support any violence to get the land back, nor would I recognize that all types of violence is equally justified...either trying to get lands back or defending them).


—-

Again, thanks for clarifying, I didn’t know if MBs remark was projection or something he had read that I didn’t see.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:29 am

I have no interest in debating the finer points of fascism and apartheid. If Ken is fine with ethnic cleansing in slow motion, that's on him.

Y'all have a great day.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:42 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:I have no interest in debating the finer points of fascism and apartheid. If Ken is fine with ethnic cleansing in slow motion, that's on him.

Y'all have a great day.



You made a dumb statement ... Ken seems to bring these out in you.

It’s ok to own it

:)
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:44 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I’m in your camp as it pertains to my question ... I would think some NA have “justification“ to try to get their lands back ... but likewise I would have no problem with the US govt meeting violence with violence if that is the vehicle groups used to win their lands back

(For the record this doesn’t mean I support any violence to get the land back, nor would I recognize that all types of violence is equally justified...either trying to get lands back or defending them).


—-

Again, thanks for clarifying, I didn’t know if MBs remark was projection or something he had read that I didn’t see.

I do appreciate you setting me up to make the argument that Israel is totally justified in whatever they do because they are simply reclaiming their territory which was stolen from them by the Babylonians and later the Romans. But I’ll just leave that one face up on the table. No need to run up the score.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:45 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:I have no interest in debating the finer points of fascism and apartheid. If Ken is fine with ethnic cleansing in slow motion, that's on him.

Y'all have a great day.

You have a Hamas rally to go to? :P
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:51 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I’m in your camp as it pertains to my question ... I would think some NA have “justification“ to try to get their lands back ... but likewise I would have no problem with the US govt meeting violence with violence if that is the vehicle groups used to win their lands back

(For the record this doesn’t mean I support any violence to get the land back, nor would I recognize that all types of violence is equally justified...either trying to get lands back or defending them).


—-

Again, thanks for clarifying, I didn’t know if MBs remark was projection or something he had read that I didn’t see.

I do appreciate you setting me up to make the argument that Israel is totally justified in whatever they do because they are simply reclaiming their territory which was stolen from them by the Babylonians and later the Romans. But I’ll just leave that one face up on the table. No need to run up the score.


I wasn’t setting anyone up on anything. I thought it was an interesting question to answer. You guys can draw whatever parallels and extensions you want to the other situation

As to the Israeli thing ... I think I’ve been clear in the past but I’m case someone hasn’t read my position ... I think both the Israelis and Palestinians (and most of the western world with their hands in this mess) have all made plenty of mistakes. I don’t support the totality of any entity’s actions
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:14 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I do appreciate you setting me up to make the argument that Israel is totally justified in whatever they do because they are simply reclaiming their territory which was stolen from them by the Babylonians and later the Romans. But I’ll just leave that one face up on the table. No need to run up the score.


I wasn’t setting anyone up on anything. I thought it was an interesting question to answer. You guys can draw whatever parallels and extensions you want to the other situation

As to the Israeli thing ... I think I’ve been clear in the past but I’m case someone hasn’t read my position ... I think both the Israelis and Palestinians (and most of the western world with their hands in this mess) have all made plenty of mistakes. I don’t support the totality of any entity’s actions

I know, bud. It was tongue in cheek. But also, it seemed like MB was going down the path of “retaking your land is justifiable.” Maybe he is choosing his exit ramp because he saw how he would have to be an ardent supporter of Israel...

You obviously shouldn’t support either entity in totality. But you also can’t be someone in favor of peace, democracy and freedom and say “there are very fine people on both sides.”
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:23 am

Ken Carson wrote: the path of “retaking your land is justifiable.”



That's what I was asking about in my follow-up. Maybe I misunderstood your response. I do think one can absolutely make a justification for taking back land by force (again, not under every circumstance or every method). If a country were to have invaded the US in the past and took some of our land, under many circumstances I would certainly think there is justification to attempt to take it back.

The hardest thing now in Israel is that land has changed hand so many times over the last few millennia....the matter is incredibly complex. Throw in the imperialism of Western Europe over the last few hundred years and it gets even more messy.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:29 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Ken Carson wrote: the path of “retaking your land is justifiable.”



That's what I was asking about in my follow-up. Maybe I misunderstood your response. I do think one can absolutely make a justification for taking back land by force (again, not under every circumstance or every method). If a country were to have invaded the US in the past and took some of our land, under many circumstances I would certainly think there is justification to attempt to take it back.

The hardest thing now in Israel is that land has changed hand so many times over the last few millennia....the matter is incredibly complex. Throw in the imperialism of Western Europe over the last few hundred years and it gets even more messy.

Indeed. I mean, if we wanted to be totally fair and give all land back to "original inhabitants," the vast majority of the world's population would probably have to move to Antarctica while the known world would be ghost towns allotted to the very few remaining "original peoples."

But I also don't even believe in the argument that Israel is retaking their lands. I believe that they are an actual democracy in a sea of dictators and fanatical theocracies. That's why they deserve support.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:38 am

Ken Carson wrote:...I’m pretty sure that all of us were celebrating the death of a terrorist in Syria...


Only us extreme-right-wing-deplorables Ken ... the rest were booing the president and chanting lock him up. ;)
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:41 am

Ken Carson wrote:... and say “there are very fine people on both sides.”


There are ... and were.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby TheChefO » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:45 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Ken Carson wrote: the path of “retaking your land is justifiable.”



That's what I was asking about in my follow-up. Maybe I misunderstood your response. I do think one can absolutely make a justification for taking back land by force (again, not under every circumstance or every method). If a country were to have invaded the US in the past and took some of our land, under many circumstances I would certainly think there is justification to attempt to take it back.

The hardest thing now in Israel is that land has changed hand so many times over the last few millennia....the matter is incredibly complex. Throw in the imperialism of Western Europe over the last few hundred years and it gets even more messy.


La Raza.

There are multiple ways to take back the land... not all of which involve armed conflict.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby HamBone » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:53 am

Not sure if this was posted..."Sen. Kamala Harris blamed her recent campaign struggles in the 2020 Democratic presidential race on American voters who can’t imagine a Black woman in the nation’s top elected position."

Lol...guess she thinks Democrat voters are either misogynist, racist or both.
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Re: Who is the Dem 2020 pick?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:57 am

HamBone wrote:Not sure if this was posted..."Sen. Kamala Harris blamed her recent campaign struggles in the 2020 Democratic presidential race on American voters who can’t imagine a Black woman in the nation’s top elected position."

Lol...guess she thinks Democrat voters are either misogynist, racist or both.



LOL. That's hilarious



I don't think a single person on this website supported her to even a small degree. She was dreadful.
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