Switzerland

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Switzerland

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:06 am

Last night I made this post.
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Why should that matter when the dividing line between success and failure in education is parents and teachers unions?


I made it deliberately with the express purpose dishing it to Zarni who had made a similar post directed at me yesterday. Served up the same kind of shade to Red and Ken that I did with Zarni earlier before calling it a night around midnight.

Now my point was to eventually get called on it so that I can do kind of what I'm doing now, but the intent was not as focused as it is this morning. Reason being that while all that was going on, I had this exchange with MJW in Team discussions.

It kind of reminded me why we've been hanging out here day and night for over 10 years and it's not to piss each other off. The whole time I'm campaigning against the harvest of homeless kidneys, I'm sitting there wondering where this part of the board stopped being fun. Maybe you're having the time of your life serving it to me or babe, or Brazen, whoever. But I recall political conversations as recently as a couple years ago that got this place compared to a boardroom. We disagreed all day long, but there was always an undertone of mutual respect with the exceptions of the occasional wingnuts who stopped by.

Mea culpa? Absolutely. Maybe you think it's all on me and I'm the guy who single-handedly dragged this sub-forum into the shitter. I know I deserve a nice sized share of the blame so I'm not even going to try and spread it out. But it's been on my mind for a while and I touched on it in a PM to usc a while back where I suggested that we try and shift focus from "The way it aughtta be" to "the way it is". And I didn't mean in a "look what you have done" sort of way. More of a "what should be done about this" sort of way. I want to try to do that. Not by changing what I believe, but by changing how I communicate it. It's not like any of you are personally responsible for the state of education in this country or on the Senate Judiciary Committee so it's not exactly a big leap here.

So, we can continue to slug it out if you like (I'm looking forward to Hammy stopping by this thread to tell me what a melodramatic bitch I am) and I'm not going to tell anybody how they can and can't present or refute an argument. What I am going to do is try and change how I do it and that starts with not misrepresenting or twisting someone else's perspective for kicks. It pisses me off when it's done to me, and gives me no satisfaction really to do it to someone else. I'm choosing to get back on the high road with the hope that it improves the debate around here, which right now is little more than a running argument.

It's kind of like that scene in the Godfather where Don Corleone swears he won't be the first to break the peace. Or at least an attempt to go on that way.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Buc2 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:18 am

**** Switzerland.









Am I doing it right, MB?
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Deuce » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:19 am

I'm not really a political guy and don't get into this sub-forum much but imo, something changed in this country recently. It may just be my age but growing up, it always seemed that people agreed or disagreed with the president but they had respect for him and supported him. It started to turn with Obama and has gotten 10x worse with Trump. Not only do a portion of the population not respect them, but they can do no good. Obama haters or Trump haters, neither one would admit that "he has some good policies". I don't know where I'm going with this but I think it's trickled down into us regulars now. Liberals think all Conservatives are racist, homophobic bigots. It's just gotten annoying to me, I can't watch the news, can't watch SNL, I actively avoid most political things these days.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:35 am

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Re: Switzerland

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:37 am

I agree we shouldn’t twist people’s words, but there is a fine line between that and challenging their statements through questioning.

In the example you referenced in this thread, Babe claimed that no one can know if abortion is murder (or, in the spirit of this thread, she actually said that she and I can’t know it). By virtue of not knowing that it is murder, she also conceded she can’t know that it isn’t murder.

To try to speed past my built in objection (why not err on the side of caution of something that might be murder), she then claimed that women should face no legal restriction to making decisions in their medical interest. To challenge her point of view, I presented her with something that IS clearly murder in pursuit of a medical best interest. I could have used comatose patients instead of the homeless. Regardless, I wasn’t saying “Babe thinks we should harvest organs from the homeless.” That would be twisting her words. It is a way of challenging her notion that anything that falls under medical best interest shouldn’t be illegal, because obviously no sane person thinks killing someone for a kidney is justified.

What I’m actually doing is try to force her to specify why in this case she thinks it’s fine for a woman to have a doctor rip arms and legs off her baby and dispose of the remains in a trash can, but why some killing a homeless person for a kidney is not fine. And she did. She clarified that she thinks all women are capable of determining whether or not they should have a baby.

At that point, I again challenged her point by questioning why that determination ceases once the baby is born. Again, I do not think any sane person would argue that downing babies is fine if the mother thinks it is best. The point is, if you think women who have a baby outside the womb are capable of doing harm to their child that should be prevented, why do you not extend that protection to the child inside the womb? At no point was I trying to get everyon to believe that Babe supports drowning children.

I’ll just say again, I think you are right that we should not twist people’s words. And if you read the contex of my posts from last night and my explanation above, you will likely agree that I wasn’t twisting her words into a straw man. I was challenging her claims by using her beliefs in “medical best interest” and “women always know” as defenses of abortion, because those arguments to not hold up when applied to any of group of human beings.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby The Outsider » Wed Sep 26, 2018 10:40 am

Switzerland has legal weed.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:02 am

Deuce wrote:I'm not really a political guy and don't get into this sub-forum much but imo, something changed in this country recently. It may just be my age but growing up, it always seemed that people agreed or disagreed with the president but they had respect for him and supported him. It started to turn with Obama and has gotten 10x worse with Trump. Not only do a portion of the population not respect them, but they can do no good. Obama haters or Trump haters, neither one would admit that "he has some good policies". I don't know where I'm going with this but I think it's trickled down into us regulars now. Liberals think all Conservatives are racist, homophobic bigots. It's just gotten annoying to me, I can't watch the news, can't watch SNL, I actively avoid most political things these days.



The anger in the country is more palpable then ever (and I think we see that on this board from some posters -- people are truly melting down and I feel sorry for them). That being said, I do think the majority of Americans don't exhibit that behavior. Luckily many people are still pretty much live and let live -- either because that's their philosophy or apathy steers them that way.

I agree that we are able to enjoy fewer things politics free -- whether it is football, the movies or even just businesses in general. That being said, i don't give a **** about any of that. I don't boycott the NFL (even though I think what the players are doing is stupid), there isn't an actor I will avoid because of their political beliefs, and while there is a business or two I go to particularly for their beliefs (political, economic, etc) it's a very small part of the my wallet.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:19 am

Buc2 wrote:**** Switzerland.





I came here to post this exact thing.

I don't know why... but "**** switzerland"

It must be the coffee hitting at 11am, cause I swear half the time I open this sub forum:

"Fourth Estate"

...**** the fourth estate

"CIA and FBI: Russia interfered with the election"

...**** the C*A and FB*

"Switzerland"

...**** switzerland!
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Babeinbucland » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:29 am

Thanks for trying MB, sadly there are too many on here who delight in the attack and are not really interested in anything else. Funny, I just had this discussion back channel with another poster last night, one with diametrically opposing views than mine too. He and I have always been able to keep it civil and kind. My motto when I came to this board was that I was simply going to meet posters where they are, if they are civil and thoughtful they can expect that from me. If they are going to be obnoxious then sure, I can meet them there. I am happy to allow someone else to set the tone and respond in that same vein. I certainly do not feel any kind of obligation to allow myself to be treated poorly or attacked in any way without responding - no matter how many of the men on here would want that.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:39 am

Babeinbucland wrote:Thanks for trying MB, sadly there are too many on here who delight in the attack and are not really interested in anything else. Funny, I just had this discussion back channel with another poster last night, one with diametrically opposing views than mine too. He and I have always been able to keep it civil and kind. My motto when I came to this board was that I was simply going to meet posters where they are, if they are civil and thoughtful they can expect that from me. If they are going to be obnoxious then sure, I can meet them there. I am happy to allow someone else to set the tone and respond in that same vein. I certainly do not feel any kind of obligation to allow myself to be treated poorly or attacked in any way without responding - no matter how many of the men on here would want that.

I'm not making any effort to tell others how to post here. I'm just choosing to change how I post here and hoping things improve. There is plenty of blame to go around so trying to assign it and demand everyone do better isn't the way to change things.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:51 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:I'm not making any effort to tell others how to post here. I'm just choosing to change how I post here and hoping things improve. There is plenty of blame to go around so trying to assign it and demand everyone do better isn't the way to change things.


So you're the anti-Bootz? :P
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Deuce » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:18 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Deuce wrote:I'm not really a political guy and don't get into this sub-forum much but imo, something changed in this country recently. It may just be my age but growing up, it always seemed that people agreed or disagreed with the president but they had respect for him and supported him. It started to turn with Obama and has gotten 10x worse with Trump. Not only do a portion of the population not respect them, but they can do no good. Obama haters or Trump haters, neither one would admit that "he has some good policies". I don't know where I'm going with this but I think it's trickled down into us regulars now. Liberals think all Conservatives are racist, homophobic bigots. It's just gotten annoying to me, I can't watch the news, can't watch SNL, I actively avoid most political things these days.



The anger in the country is more palpable then ever (and I think we see that on this board from some posters -- people are truly melting down and I feel sorry for them). That being said, I do think the majority of Americans don't exhibit that behavior. Luckily many people are still pretty much live and let live -- either because that's their philosophy or apathy steers them that way.

I agree that we are able to enjoy fewer things politics free -- whether it is football, the movies or even just businesses in general. That being said, i don't give a **** about any of that. I don't boycott the NFL (even though I think what the players are doing is stupid), there isn't an actor I will avoid because of their political beliefs, and while there is a business or two I go to particularly for their beliefs (political, economic, etc) it's a very small part of the my wallet.


While I'm not a staunch supporter of either party, I voted for Donald Trump. But I am way too terrified to put a Trump sticker on my car. MB, I know the area you live in, would you feel comfortable with a Bernie sticker (not necessarily saying that's who you'd support)? My dad lives in a red county, I believe the same one where MB lives. He put Trump signs in his yard and someone would knock them down. He'd put them back up. Repeat every few days.

It feels wrong that as an American, I'm scared to put the candidate's name I voted for on my car for fear of retaliation. And the dude's president, it's not like I'm speaking out for some crazy fringe candidate with radical beliefs.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:46 pm

oh, and good OP, MB

deuce - I remember being in HS during the '04 election. As far as I was concerned, Bush was a bonafide retard who dragged us into a war in the Middle East at the behest of his neo-con cronies. He / they were pure evil. And Bush was retarded too. Did I mention that?

IMO, the peak of political fervor has always been as high as it is now, IMO. Hell, motherfuckers used to duel in the streets to settle political arguments. One could maybe even argue that we're at a lower peak in terms of political fervor, when compared to the last couple thousand years of human history.

IMO, the issue, though, is not the "vertical" extent, but the "horizontal" extent and what the media machine has done with that horizontal expansion. Never before in human history have people had both, A) such an overwhelming inflow of information, and B) a platform that allows for such a broad outflow of thoughts/ideas.

And turns out, everyday humans (and their IQ's)(and the quality of their interpretations and expressions) exist on a bell curve. There is an incredibly intelligent minority, an incredibly stupid minority, and then everybody in between. But the kicker is, as I've contended for a while now, the issues themselves, or rather the complexity of the issues and the intelligence required to fully understand them does NOT overlap with our "human bell curve". Like 90% of the issues society is parsing through every day are complex as **** and you're either going to need: A) a 110 IQ (USA average is 98, or B) a LOT of damn time to pour a LOT of damn thought into understanding the issue.

So the situation we've got is:
A) The issues are complex
B) The issues are many
C) The populace does not have the requisite brain power to understand an issue fully, or does not have the time to invest in a single issue to understand it fully, because of B)
D) The platforms most people use (which is a societal-media driven component) do not encourage long-form conversation (that is changing slowly I think)
E) The mainstream media propaganda machine is so pervasive and sophisticated that its almost hard to fathom the full extent. It understands A)-D) better than anyone else, and in fact, its survival depends on them understanding these things. The currency of the media is information. They are at an advantaged position when they control how and what information is being discussed. They drive the conversation, and the style of the conversation towards a way that benefits their survival. And it is a very sophisticated operation at this point. And so they've capitalized on the technology, they've capitalized on the complexity of the issues, they've capitalized on the fact that every statement uttered on the internet can be called up and put in front of your face, so they've capitalized on our sensitivities, they've capitalized on our vulnerabilities, they've capitalized on our differences, and in doing so, they've quite-purposefully facilitated the destruction of intellectual discourse in this country.

I don't think humans are unique in this time, or at least our derivation from past behavior is entirely overshadowed by the uniqueness of all the other variables in this equation. I think we've always been just as shitty and just as nice, it's just that the issues have gotten SO complex, and there's SO much inflow/outflow of information, and the control of the conversation is SO sophisticated, and there's SO MANY issues that it would take a damn genius to understand them in a normal time, even with the benefit of being completely undisturbed and free from the media's spin. But of course, everybody on facebook and twitter thinks they're a damn genius so they spout off half-baked opinions all day every day to boost their ego or satisfy some chemical itch - all the while encouraged and legitimized by sophisticated propaganda machine


It's being done to us.

But that doesn't absolve you from shitty behavior. You recognize the truth of the situation, and you correct your course now that you know what's out there. And you find a better standard and a better way to be. It still comes down to YOU. But at the same time, we don't just ignore everybody else, and what's happening to them. You still acknowledge the truth of things. That's how you got to the better place in the first place.

IMO, of course
Last edited by beardmcdoug on Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:53 pm

Deuce wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

The anger in the country is more palpable then ever (and I think we see that on this board from some posters -- people are truly melting down and I feel sorry for them). That being said, I do think the majority of Americans don't exhibit that behavior. Luckily many people are still pretty much live and let live -- either because that's their philosophy or apathy steers them that way.

I agree that we are able to enjoy fewer things politics free -- whether it is football, the movies or even just businesses in general. That being said, i don't give a **** about any of that. I don't boycott the NFL (even though I think what the players are doing is stupid), there isn't an actor I will avoid because of their political beliefs, and while there is a business or two I go to particularly for their beliefs (political, economic, etc) it's a very small part of the my wallet.


While I'm not a staunch supporter of either party, I voted for Donald Trump. But I am way too terrified to put a Trump sticker on my car. MB, I know the area you live in, would you feel comfortable with a Bernie sticker (not necessarily saying that's who you'd support)? My dad lives in a red county, I believe the same one where MB lives. He put Trump signs in his yard and someone would knock them down. He'd put them back up. Repeat every few days.

It feels wrong that as an American, I'm scared to put the candidate's name I voted for on my car for fear of retaliation. And the dude's president, it's not like I'm speaking out for some crazy fringe candidate with radical beliefs.


you are probably right about that...if you put a trump sticker on your car or wear a MAGA shirt out in public in any remotely sized town/city you will be confronted and/or your property vandalized. That will happen to some extent with supporting just about any political candidate but I would think the most vandalism would be directed at Trump material.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Sep 26, 2018 12:54 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:oh, and good OP, MB

deuce - I remember being in HS during the '04 election. As far as I was concerned, Bush was a bonafied retard who dragged us into a was in the Middle East at the behest of his neo-con cronies. He / they were pure evil. And Bush was retarded too. Did I mention that?

IMO, the peak of political fervor has always been as high as it is now, IMO. Hell, motherfuckers used to duel in the streets to settle political arguments. One could maybe even argue that we're at a lower peak in terms of political fervor, when compared to the last couple thousand years of human history.

IMO, the issue, though, is not the "vertical" extent, but the "horizontal" extent and what the media machine has done with that horizontal expansion. Never before in human history have people had both, A) such an overwhelming inflow of information, and B) a platform that allows for such a broad outflow of thoughts/ideas.

And turns out, everyday humans (and their IQ's)(and the quality of their interpretations and expressions) exist on a bell curve. There is an incredibly intelligent minority, an incredibly stupid minority, and then everybody in between. But the kicker is, as I've contended for a while now, the issues themselves, or rather the complexity of the issues and the intelligence required to fully understand them does NOT overlap with our "human bell curve". Like 90% of the issues society is parsing through every day are complex as **** and you're either going to need: A) a 110 IQ (USA average is 98, or B) a LOT of damn time to pour a LOT of damn thought into understanding the issue.

So the situation we've got is:
A) The issues are complex
B) The issues are many
C) The populace does not have the requisite brain power to understand an issue fully, or does not have the time to invest in a single issue to understand it fully, because of B)
D) The platforms most people use (which is a societal-media driven component) do not encourage long-form conversation (that is changing slowly I think)
E) The mainstream media propaganda machine is so pervasive and sophisticated that its almost hard to fathom the full extent. It understands A)-D) better than anyone else, and in fact, its survival depends on them understanding these things. The currency of the media is information. They are at an advantaged position when they control how and what information is being discussed. They drive the conversation, and the style of the conversation towards a way that benefits their survival. And it is a very sophisticated operation at this point. And so they've capitalized on the technology, they've capitalized on the complexity of the issues, they've capitalized on the fact that every statement uttered on the internet can be called up and put in front of your face, so they've capitalized on our sensitivities, they've capitalized on our vulnerabilities, they've capitalized on our differences, and in doing so, they've quite-purposefully facilitated the destruction of intellectual discourse in this country.

I don't think humans are unique in this time, or at least our derivation from past behavior is entirely overshadowed by the uniqueness of all the other variables in this equation. I think we've always been just as shitty and just as nice, it's just that the issues have gotten SO complex, and there's SO much inflow/outflow of information, and the control of the conversation is SO sophisticated, and there's SO MANY issues that it would take a damn genius to understand them in a normal time, even with the benefit of being completely undisturbed and free from the media's spin. But of course, everybody on facebook and twitter thinks they're a damn genius so they spout off half-baked opinions all day every day to boost their ego or satisfy some chemical itch - all the while encouraged and legitimized by sophisticated propaganda machine


It's being done to us.

But that doesn't absolve you from shitty behavior. You recognize the truth of the situation, and you correct your course now that you know what's out there. And you find a better standard and a better way to be. It still comes down to YOU. But at the same time, we don't just ignore everybody else, and what's happening to them. You still acknowledge the truth of things. That's how you got to the better place in the first place.

IMO, of course


god damn, i love when you go off on your cultural and sociological takes!!! one of the best parts of this board. I wish you lived closer and we could have a :drinkingcheers:
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Re: Switzerland

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:03 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:oh, and good OP, MB

deuce - I remember being in HS during the '04 election. As far as I was concerned, Bush was a bonafied retard who dragged us into a was in the Middle East at the behest of his neo-con cronies. He / they were pure evil. And Bush was retarded too. Did I mention that?

IMO, the peak of political fervor has always been as high as it is now, IMO. Hell, motherfuckers used to duel in the streets to settle political arguments. One could maybe even argue that we're at a lower peak in terms of political fervor, when compared to the last couple thousand years of human history.

IMO, the issue, though, is not the "vertical" extent, but the "horizontal" extent and what the media machine has done with that horizontal expansion. Never before in human history have people had both, A) such an overwhelming inflow of information, and B) a platform that allows for such a broad outflow of thoughts/ideas.

And turns out, everyday humans (and their IQ's)(and the quality of their interpretations and expressions) exist on a bell curve. There is an incredibly intelligent minority, an incredibly stupid minority, and then everybody in between. But the kicker is, as I've contended for a while now, the issues themselves, or rather the complexity of the issues and the intelligence required to fully understand them does NOT overlap with our "human bell curve". Like 90% of the issues society is parsing through every day are complex as **** and you're either going to need: A) a 110 IQ (USA average is 98, or B) a LOT of damn time to pour a LOT of damn thought into understanding the issue.

So the situation we've got is:
A) The issues are complex
B) The issues are many
C) The populace does not have the requisite brain power to understand an issue fully, or does not have the time to invest in a single issue to understand it fully, because of B)
D) The platforms most people use (which is a societal-media driven component) do not encourage long-form conversation (that is changing slowly I think)
E) The mainstream media propaganda machine is so pervasive and sophisticated that its almost hard to fathom the full extent. It understands A)-D) better than anyone else, and in fact, its survival depends on them understanding these things. The currency of the media is information. They are at an advantaged position when they control how and what information is being discussed. They drive the conversation, and the style of the conversation towards a way that benefits their survival. And it is a very sophisticated operation at this point. And so they've capitalized on the technology, they've capitalized on the complexity of the issues, they've capitalized on the fact that every statement uttered on the internet can be called up and put in front of your face, so they've capitalized on our sensitivities, they've capitalized on our vulnerabilities, they've capitalized on our differences, and in doing so, they've quite-purposefully facilitated the destruction of intellectual discourse in this country.

I don't think humans are unique in this time, or at least our derivation from past behavior is entirely overshadowed by the uniqueness of all the other variables in this equation. I think we've always been just as shitty and just as nice, it's just that the issues have gotten SO complex, and there's SO much inflow/outflow of information, and the control of the conversation is SO sophisticated, and there's SO MANY issues that it would take a damn genius to understand them in a normal time, even with the benefit of being completely undisturbed and free from the media's spin. But of course, everybody on facebook and twitter thinks they're a damn genius so they spout off half-baked opinions all day every day to boost their ego or satisfy some chemical itch - all the while encouraged and legitimized by sophisticated propaganda machine


It's being done to us.

But that doesn't absolve you from shitty behavior. You recognize the truth of the situation, and you correct your course now that you know what's out there. And you find a better standard and a better way to be. It still comes down to YOU. But at the same time, we don't just ignore everybody else, and what's happening to them. You still acknowledge the truth of things. That's how you got to the better place in the first place.

IMO, of course


god damn, i love when you go off on your cultural and sociological takes!!! one of the best parts of this board. I wish you lived closer and we could have a :drinkingcheers:


lmao! me too bud :drinkingcheers:
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Buc2 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:05 pm

I'd just sit back and listen to you two guys while periodically interrupting to ask if you were ready for another round. :lol:
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Deuce » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:05 pm

bmd, did you grow up in Tally?
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:06 pm

Buc2 wrote:I'd just sit back and listen to you two guys while periodically interrupting to ask if you were ready for another round. :lol:


Lol
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Re: Switzerland

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:08 pm

Deuce wrote:bmd, did you grow up in Tally?


nope, tampa
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Re: Switzerland

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:09 pm

Buc2 wrote:I'd just sit back and listen to you two guys while periodically interrupting to ask if you were ready for another round. :lol:


haha yeah right after a couple you'd be all up in it :D
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:26 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:oh, and good OP, MB

deuce - I remember being in HS during the '04 election. As far as I was concerned, Bush was a bonafied retard who dragged us into a was in the Middle East at the behest of his neo-con cronies. He / they were pure evil. And Bush was retarded too. Did I mention that?

IMO, the peak of political fervor has always been as high as it is now, IMO. Hell, motherfuckers used to duel in the streets to settle political arguments. One could maybe even argue that we're at a lower peak in terms of political fervor, when compared to the last couple thousand years of human history.

IMO, the issue, though, is not the "vertical" extent, but the "horizontal" extent and what the media machine has done with that horizontal expansion. Never before in human history have people had both, A) such an overwhelming inflow of information, and B) a platform that allows for such a broad outflow of thoughts/ideas.

And turns out, everyday humans (and their IQ's)(and the quality of their interpretations and expressions) exist on a bell curve. There is an incredibly intelligent minority, an incredibly stupid minority, and then everybody in between. But the kicker is, as I've contended for a while now, the issues themselves, or rather the complexity of the issues and the intelligence required to fully understand them does NOT overlap with our "human bell curve". Like 90% of the issues society is parsing through every day are complex as **** and you're either going to need: A) a 110 IQ (USA average is 98, or B) a LOT of damn time to pour a LOT of damn thought into understanding the issue.

So the situation we've got is:
A) The issues are complex
B) The issues are many
C) The populace does not have the requisite brain power to understand an issue fully, or does not have the time to invest in a single issue to understand it fully, because of B)
D) The platforms most people use (which is a societal-media driven component) do not encourage long-form conversation (that is changing slowly I think)
E) The mainstream media propaganda machine is so pervasive and sophisticated that its almost hard to fathom the full extent. It understands A)-D) better than anyone else, and in fact, its survival depends on them understanding these things. The currency of the media is information. They are at an advantaged position when they control how and what information is being discussed. They drive the conversation, and the style of the conversation towards a way that benefits their survival. And it is a very sophisticated operation at this point. And so they've capitalized on the technology, they've capitalized on the complexity of the issues, they've capitalized on the fact that every statement uttered on the internet can be called up and put in front of your face, so they've capitalized on our sensitivities, they've capitalized on our vulnerabilities, they've capitalized on our differences, and in doing so, they've quite-purposefully facilitated the destruction of intellectual discourse in this country.

I don't think humans are unique in this time, or at least our derivation from past behavior is entirely overshadowed by the uniqueness of all the other variables in this equation. I think we've always been just as shitty and just as nice, it's just that the issues have gotten SO complex, and there's SO much inflow/outflow of information, and the control of the conversation is SO sophisticated, and there's SO MANY issues that it would take a damn genius to understand them in a normal time, even with the benefit of being completely undisturbed and free from the media's spin. But of course, everybody on facebook and twitter thinks they're a damn genius so they spout off half-baked opinions all day every day to boost their ego or satisfy some chemical itch - all the while encouraged and legitimized by sophisticated propaganda machine


It's being done to us.

But that doesn't absolve you from shitty behavior. You recognize the truth of the situation, and you correct your course now that you know what's out there. And you find a better standard and a better way to be. It still comes down to YOU. But at the same time, we don't just ignore everybody else, and what's happening to them. You still acknowledge the truth of things. That's how you got to the better place in the first place.

IMO, of course


god damn, i love when you go off on your cultural and sociological takes!!! one of the best parts of this board. I wish you lived closer and we could have a :drinkingcheers:

Yup. that was a great post.

Political vitriol as we know is nothing new and i got reminded of that last night watching the 3rd and final part of the Ken Burns Prohibition documentary. It got to the Presidential election of 1928 which if it had happened in 2016, we would think the country was completely unraveling.

It was Republican Herbert Hoover and Democrat Al Smith. Both candidates knew the Volstead act was a critically flawed piece of legislation that Calvin Coolidge punted on to not piss off the anti-saloon league which at the time was as powerful a political machine as the NRA is today. Smith was a catholic and very popular governor of new york and ran on ending prohibition among other things. The ASL combined with a whole host of dry groups took to the media and absolutely slayed Smith. They accused him of being a drunk, a pagan, a womanizer, and of wanting to put the pope in his cabinet and take orders from the Vatican. The Klan marched on Washington against him and burned crosses outside of campaign rallies. It was so ugly that after Hoover won, Smith swore he would never run for office again.

Hoover ended up punting on prohibition even in the face of the stock market crash when it was rightly suggested that ending it would be a massive boost to the economy from growing grain to brewing, to barrel making, to trucking and marketing. This pissed off a New York socialite that had financed Harding, Coolidge, and Hoover so much that she quit the republican party, started a women for the en of prohibition movement, and later raised money to get FDR elected. The bill to send the 21st amendment to the states passed congress before FDR was inaugurated and it was ratified in less than a year.

Remarkable how the country was so bitterly divided during prohibition and the roaring 20's that it took the Great Depression to get people to come to their senses and unify (to an extent before Pearl Harbor) on more important issues.

Still highly recommend that documentary.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Buc2 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:35 pm

First of all, I can assure you I do have above average intelligence. That said, I don't pretend to be an expert on any single political issue. Never have, never will. I do, however, know that I'm more than intelligent enough to look over the issues that are important to me and get a very good feel for what I think of those issues and which political candidates I most align with on those issues. By that same token, I believe that allows me to make an intelligent decision on which political candidates I will cast my votes for.

As for the topic at hand in this thread regarding political discourse on these pages, I mostly try to avoid using insults, but I'm not perfect on that front and, ever so often, I fail. That's especially true when someone is constantly insulting my intelligence because of the political candidate(s) I voted for...even if they aren't talking directly to me. They could be talking to Deuce, for example, but it doesn't matter. If they say he's an idiot for voting for Trump, that's the same as saying that everyone that voted for Trump is an idiot which includes me. That kind of **** tends to piss me off and I'm liable to respond in kind. The trolls rarely bother me when they say **** like that because I don't respect their opinions and know they're just trying to provoke a response.

But I do applaud your decision to get back to a more civil discourse, MB, and I wish you much success with that.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Buc2 » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:37 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
Buc2 wrote:I'd just sit back and listen to you two guys while periodically interrupting to ask if you were ready for another round. :lol:


haha yeah right after a couple you'd be all up in it :D

Yeah I would. :D
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Re: Switzerland

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:21 am

Suffered a setback yesterday.

Sorry, Dread.
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Re: Switzerland

Postby DreadNaught » Sat Oct 06, 2018 9:35 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Suffered a setback yesterday.

Sorry, Dread.


All good brother, I could've been more rational in my response.

I wasn't initially trying to troll you. We just just weren't arriving at that issue from the same perspective. I get BK worked for the GOP prior to being a judge and thus that frames who he is to many people. But his judicial opinions do matter, imo much more so when we're discussing his potential partisanship as a judge, which is where I was coming from.

I had just listened to Collins speech where she had hit on alot of this, in addition to what had been covered in the confirmation hearings (prior to it being turned into a circus).

Sorry for the shitty response though. Have a great weekend.

:drinkingcheers:
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Re: Switzerland

Postby IronDog » Sat Oct 06, 2018 12:54 pm

Is this where Pete votes on Chocolate? Or nominated Watchboy?
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