Who is America?

A Place to respectfully discuss those topics that you should never discuss.
post

Re: Who is America?

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:18 am

NYBF wrote:But.. but... none of those are 100%!

Did you misread my post? Do you understand that 59% that voted for Hillary are against socialist candidate . Does everything need to be spelled out for you?
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4375
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 118 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:18 am

RedLeader wrote:Good luck with those polls, gents...

Thanks. Best of luck to you.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Stuart » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:20 am

Back by popular demand!!!!!!!!


Image
Stuart
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 12:10 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:27 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:sigh....Here we go again.

59% of Americans approve Medicare for all. Poll jumps to 75% when presented as a public option.
https://www.businessinsider.com/poll-medicare-for-all-public-option-bernie-sanders-plan-support-2018-3

but only 51% support single-payer healthcare? Is it dropping or selective polling?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 7be02723cd

I see what it is, it's how the questions are phrased:

The Kaiser Family Foundation reports a “modest increase” in support for single-payer coverage in recent years, with “substantial” opposition.

Kaiser’s tracking poll in July found 53 percent in favor of having all Americans get their health insurance from the government; 43 percent were against that. Opposition climbed to 60 percent when people were asked to consider that such a plan would call for higher taxes for many. A slight majority also swung against a single-payer plan when respondents were told that former President Barack Obama’s health care law would be replaced as a result.


So 60% are against medicare for all if it increases taxes.

https://www.statnews.com/2017/09/17/sin ... act-check/

71% want the minimum wage to at least $10 an hour “even if it also increases the cost of food and service to customers.”
https://www.eater.com/2018/4/18/1725177 ... enu-prices

but most do not support $15 per hour, even in New York.
https://www.epionline.org/release/new-p ... imum-wage/



Do you believe only 17% support disbanding ICE? Neither do I.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ab ... 3a8f6c803d


I deleted the obvious polls that aren't ridiculous, but as you see it's easy to skew these polls. Single payer healthcare is not wanted by a majority and common sense dictates you don't need polls to see that. It's one of the biggest obstacles Bernie Sanders has. It's an extremely polarizing topic and her topics combined label her a socialist, which is not popular by either major party. She is considered a radical, as are you. Even many of the democrats on the board, plus all the conservatives, and libertarians are against your views, but you think they are the popular views in the US?

edit: It got all fucked up, but it works...
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4375
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 118 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:39 am

uh-huh. 60% don't want universal, 59% want Medicare for all, 75% support a public option. So obviously, some sort of socialized medicine is preferrable to a strong majority of Americans. Thank you for proving my point.

You've also proven my point on minimum wage hikes being popular. The only squabble is over how much.

Progress!

EDIT: Tell me again how popular positions make one a radical? You lost me on that one.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:49 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:uh-huh. 60% don't want universal, 59% want Medicare for all, 75% support a public option. So obviously, some sort of socialized medicine is preferrable to a strong majority of Americans.

Come on, man. Universal=Socialized. The poll numbers flipped when they were told they had to pay for it.

So throwing all the polls out as they just cancelled each other out...Let's say you are right. Is it just low on the list of priorities for Americans? You think they don't want it enough to sway their vote? Explain if that large of a majority wants socialized healthcare how no one has voted for a candidate that wants it? Explain how ending Obamacare was maybe the 2nd largest supported platform that made Trump popular. Do you think that all of those people thought that Trump was going to end Obamacare for socialized healthcare?

A majority of conservatives are against universal health care (as high as 90% oppose it, as low as 79% from the polls we both posted). Obviously all libertarians are against single-payer healthcare. As low as 20% and as high as 30% of liberals oppose it and only 49% of independents support it. The numbers don't add up.

edit: To your edit, they aren't popular positions, they are radical by definition. Do you think your ideologies are shared by a majority of your party? How about the republican party? Independents? Libertarians? No? Well then I guess you are just representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of your political party (rad·i·cal)
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4375
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 118 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jul 27, 2018 11:59 am

MB, I hope we can continue this another time. I have a meeting and then my weekend starts. As you know I'm not allowed to post on the weekends (sometimes I can sneak in a post on the boat or in my office on Sunday).

edit: and NYBF, the show is awesome (there you go, buddy).
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4375
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 118 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:02 pm

RedLeader wrote:Good luck with those polls, gents...

http://www.buczone.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=182&p=292046&hilit=+poll#p292046
User avatar
bucfanclw
 
Posts: 3655
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: I'm told Clewiston
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Buc2 » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:03 pm

Regarding most of these polls...

Image
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 10421
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 884 times
Been thanked: 359 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:04 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:uh-huh. 60% don't want universal, 59% want Medicare for all, 75% support a public option. So obviously, some sort of socialized medicine is preferrable to a strong majority of Americans.

Come on, man. Universal=Socialized. The poll numbers flipped when they were told they had to pay for it.

So throwing all the polls out as they just cancelled each other out...Let's say you are right. Is it just low on the list of priorities for Americans? You think they don't want it enough to sway their vote? Explain if that large of a majority wants socialized healthcare how no one has voted for a candidate that wants it? Explain how ending Obamacare was maybe the 2nd largest supported platform that made Trump popular. Do you think that all of those people thought that Trump was going to end Obamacare for socialized healthcare?

A majority of conservatives are against universal health care (as high as 90% oppose it, as low as 79% from the polls we both posted). Obviously all libertarians are against single-payer healthcare. As low as 20% and as high as 30% of liberals oppose it and only 49% of independents support it. The numbers don't add up.

edit: To your edit, they aren't popular positions, they are radical by definition. Do you think your ideologies are shared by a majority of your party? How about the republican party? Independents? Libertarians? No? Well then I guess you are just representing or supporting an extreme or progressive section of your political party (rad·i·cal)

You keep trying to put it into a box It don't fit in.

When was the last Presidential election that had a candidate that wanted to provide healthcare to every citizen as a right? That would be 1944. Even though Obama and both Clintons beat around the bush at it.

IDC what conservatives and Libertarians want in terms of healthcare and the economy. As far as I'm concerned they've been getting their way for the last 40 years. I've seen enough evidence to convince me that not only are those issues popular with the people, but politicians like Sanders who run on those issues tend to be more popular. And I think the smart thing for any Democrat to do is run on those issues if they expect to win.

So my bet is on the "radical" horse. And the way I see it, the only defense the right has against a left wing politician who runs on issues with popular support is to call them a radical and bait them into fighting the culture wars.

Edit: Have a great weekend, hombre.
Last edited by Mountaineer Buc on Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:06 pm

Buc2 wrote:Regarding most of these polls...

Image

Image
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby RedLeader » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:11 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:Good luck with those polls, gents...

http://www.buczone.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=182&p=292046&hilit=+poll#p292046


Damn, dude. You're still harping on that post? lol.






Can I at least get the water and cable turned on in this bitch?!
User avatar
RedLeader
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:27 pm
Location: G14 Classified
Has thanked: 99 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Stuart » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:12 pm

Image
Stuart
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 12:10 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:12 pm

During Roosevelt's January 11, 1944 message to the Congress on the State of the Union, he said the following:[2]

It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. "Necessitous men are not free men."[3] People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;
The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;
The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;
The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;
The right of every family to a decent home;
The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;
The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;
The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America's own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for all our citizens. For unless there is security here at home there cannot be lasting peace in the world.

And he went on that fall to win 432 out of 531 electoral votes with all that "Radical socialism".
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:16 pm

Drumming up a platform from 70 years ago is called progress?
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 12033
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 501 times
Been thanked: 521 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:25 pm

RedLeader wrote:


Damn, dude. You're still harping on that post? lol.

Its just fun to remind you how you react to polls the second they look like they fit your world view.
User avatar
bucfanclw
 
Posts: 3655
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: I'm told Clewiston
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:26 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Drumming up a platform from 70 years ago is called progress?

Think of it as a historical basis for populism.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Stuart » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:26 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Drumming up a platform from 70 years ago is called progress?


Hitler was way ahead of his time
Stuart
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 12:10 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:26 pm

Reducto ad Hitlerum
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:28 pm

Stuart wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:Drumming up a platform from 70 years ago is called progress?


Hitler was way ahead of his time

No we're rooting for the guy that kicked Hitler's ass. Pay attention.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby RedLeader » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:33 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:
Damn, dude. You're still harping on that post? lol.

Its just fun to remind [myself] how [I] react to polls the second they look like they [don't] fit [my] world view.



Fixed.
User avatar
RedLeader
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:27 pm
Location: G14 Classified
Has thanked: 99 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:38 pm

RedLeader wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Its just fun to remind [myself] how [I] react to polls the second they look like they [don't] fit [my] world view.



Fixed.

Cool, so I'm sure you can find examples of me throwing out a poll as proof of anything other than that polls contradict each other and don't mean that much.

I'll wait while you post those.
User avatar
bucfanclw
 
Posts: 3655
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: I'm told Clewiston
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Stuart » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:44 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Stuart wrote:
Hitler was way ahead of his time

No we're rooting for the guy that kicked Hitler's ass. Pay attention.


you do realise his remains were never authenticated right?
Stuart
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 12:10 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:46 pm

Stuart wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:No we're rooting for the guy that kicked Hitler's ass. Pay attention.


you do realise his remains were never authenticated right?

I feel pretty confident that Hitler is dead right now .
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 12591
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 130 times
Been thanked: 608 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Stuart » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:55 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Stuart wrote:
you do realise his remains were never authenticated right?

I feel pretty confident that Hitler is dead right now .



you conspiracy theorist never cease to amaze me.
Stuart
 
Posts: 371
Joined: Wed May 02, 2018 12:10 pm
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby RedLeader » Fri Jul 27, 2018 12:58 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:

Fixed.

Cool, so I'm sure you can find examples of me throwing out a poll as proof of anything other than that polls contradict each other and don't mean that much.

I'll wait while you post those.


Funny you didn't react in any way to all the polls being thrown around in this thread... or in any other thread, for that matter.



But then bring back a thread two months old where you went full retard over a poll that - by all indications - didn't "fit your world view".


lol


Like I said... fixed.
User avatar
RedLeader
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:27 pm
Location: G14 Classified
Has thanked: 99 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:11 pm

RedLeader wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Cool, so I'm sure you can find examples of me throwing out a poll as proof of anything other than that polls contradict each other and don't mean that much.

I'll wait while you post those.


Funny you didn't react in any way to all the polls being thrown around in this thread... or in any other thread, for that matter.

Thanks for reaffirming my point. Is there anything else you'd like to surrender on today?
User avatar
bucfanclw
 
Posts: 3655
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:09 pm
Location: I'm told Clewiston
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 156 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby RedLeader » Fri Jul 27, 2018 1:25 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:
Funny you didn't react in any way to all the polls being thrown around in this thread... or in any other thread, for that matter.

Thanks for reaffirming my point. Is there anything else you'd like to surrender on today?


lol. Go back and read this thread... slowly this time..



Looks like I'm going to have to update my renters insurance again. :roll:
User avatar
RedLeader
 
Posts: 2610
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:27 pm
Location: G14 Classified
Has thanked: 99 times
Been thanked: 95 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Alpha » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:02 am

DreadNaught wrote:America is a country of limited government....


Since ****ing WHEN...1804!?

Would be nice if it were but to keep lying to yourself (and others) that it actually IS?

Must be nice living in a Trumpian world. Kinda like Fantasyland at Disney World.

Except for retards.
Alpha
 
Posts: 3763
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:51 am
Location: St. Pete
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 92 times

Re: Who is America?

Postby Alpha » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:08 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Cheb wrote:
I defer to you on the specifics of the German healthcare system. That's not my strong suit.

As far as salary differentials, your description is a bit disingenuous, if not flat-out wrong. The average German college professor makes nearly 81,000 euros, which converts to $94,712.73 in US dollars (hereafter called USD for short). The average McDonald's crew member in Germany hauls in 1200 euros per month, which equates to $1407 monthly; yearly salary is 14,400 euros a year, or a bit under $17k USD. The difference in salary between college professor and McDonald's employee is over 5:1. So it's not like Germany is an egalitarian socialist paradise. There's still a wage hierarchy.

As far as doctors' pay, I know a bit more, given my sister-in-law's studies in med school. She told me that she's expecting a pretax salary of 100,000 euros on graduation next spring, which equates to about $123k USD at the current exchange rate. Googling backs up those numbers (see links below). That's a not horrible salary, but it is about a third what she would be getting in the United States. But she's also getting through med school debt free, which is nothing to sniff at.

Sources:
McDonald's in Germany salaries - https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/McDonald-s-Germany-Salaries-EI_IE432.0,10_IL.11,18_IN96.htm
Professors in Germany salaraies: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/germany-professor-salary-SRCH_IL.0,7_IN96_KO8,17.htm
What doctors in Germany make: https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91931036

--

I think that your idea about "I sure as hell shouldn't have to pay for nice things for others, because in every instance of that around the world...I would get less for myself" is fundamentally flawed. Not only does it come from the school of "**** you I got mine," which has its own set of problems. Ultimately, it's not about paying for other people to have nice things. It's about paying for YOU to have nice things; it's just that you may not need them right at this moment.

The nice thing about strong social safety nets like those found in socialist European countries is that they diffuse the financial sting of large life events and makes them bearable. Sure, you may have to pay a bit more into the system than the average bear in a given year. But you have the comfort of knowing that a single healthcare bill isn't going to wipe out your life savings, or you won't have to take out a second mortgage to pay for your kid's college, or you don't have to pay over $1000 per month per kid in daycare, or you won't be forced to eat cat food in retirement because you're dead broke. All of those problems face Americans every day, all of those problems have happened to people that I know. Those problems happen in countries with strong social safety nets, but they are mitigated substantially. That's the important thing.

I'm from California. Bred and buttered. So is my wife. The weather's great. From a business standpoint it's fantastic, both for my wife as a chef/restaurateur and me as an engineer/startup-mercenary. Its crowded as F though and the taxes get tiresome and the smog gets on your nerves sometimes, but that's the price you pay to live in California. It's not for everyone.

The nice thing about personal savings and having insurance is that they are a safety net that each person can have. I have money for my son's vehicle, college, and an emergency fund put away. I have good insurance and specialty insurance to where I don't have to worry about medical costs. The thing is, I'm spending less than your brother because I'm able to do this for myself. I'm not obligated to pay for everyone else. Outsider is right, your solution would cost more money for a large majority of folks to pay for others to have the same benefits at a reduced quality.

The biggest issue I have and I've tried to get Outsider or MB to explain/debate this, is that I don't want a diminished lifestyle. I've lived all over the world and enjoy the things we have here, how our economy works because it's simply better. I don't want a worse healthcare system just because it's more encompassing. I don't agree that, "No one should have a house that big or that many cars anyway" that Europeans say about Americans. The large houses, nice cars, expensive toys, excess, climbing the economic ladder, and additional spending money are the luxuries we have with paying less taxes. In fact I want a smaller government, smaller military, and more money in everyone's pockets to have more money to save and spend.

I think what you are missing about German salaries is the sliding scale of taxes. The college professor I lived next door to in Germany made 38k Euros (it was a lot more then than it is now) to teach in Kaiserslautern. The McDonald's Cafe worker (super attractive) who lived on the other side of me made 29k Euros per year, she claimed her Boss made 78k Euro as a McDonald's manager which I didn't believe until I look at the numbers you posted. After taxes their net take home between a McDonald's worker and a professor were VERY close. Close enough to both be living next door to each other at the top of their budget. Keep in mind the numbers you cited are "average", not median.

When you spoke about taxes in Germany it seems that you aren't factoring in; higher real estate tax, higher car tax/inspections, their VAT+ large purchase taxes. To have what Germans have cost a lot more than the 4% you pointed out. To go to a system like that it would take a massive amount of cash from the middle class-upper lower class to make it work. As I've stated before, the rich will always be rich, regardless of economic system, but it's large portion of contributors to capitalism that these social programs hurt the most. Especially in a system like Germany, which is the 2nd highest net tax in the world. Plus, in every metric that's important to me, as a person with good insurance and savings, our health care is a lot better.



LMAO!

You just got served the **** up...and don't even...or CAN'T even...just admit it, like a man.

You feel the need to support and defend your losing position.

Typical Trumpian. In for a penny, in for a pound. Too invested to admit you fucked up and no matter the facts that have been shoved up your ass, you STILL can't just admit you fucked up.

Human nature, indeed.
Alpha
 
Posts: 3763
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2015 12:51 am
Location: St. Pete
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 92 times

PreviousNext

post

Return to Politics and Religion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests