Who is America?

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Re: Who is America?

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:58 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
Buc2 wrote:If I can find it on one of the streaming services I have, I'll definitely give it a watch. I think the last docu I saw of that time was History Channel's, WWII in HD.


looks like its on youtube right now. I think I made it through about 1.5 hrs a little while back, was really interesting. think I'm going to finish it on an roadtrip I've got coming up



Had to do an overnight road trip and watch/listened to this whole thing.

Two things:

1) it’s definitely worth the watch. Incredibly eye opening. Really fleshes our the broader story of WW2. Much more detailed and quite frankly, seemingly more truthful account of WW2 than the “Hitler was killing a bunch of Jews so we had to go stop him” story I got in school. Everything is backed by official documents and declassified material that is easily searchable on line/wiki. They tell the story in a way to make a point to highlight the hypocrisy of the “official” US/Allied perspective that has been taught in schools over the last 70 years - but overall I think it’s fair. On a scale of 0-10 of bias, with 0 being very biased towards the allies perspective and 10 being biased towards the German/Nazi perspective, with 5 being completely fair, I’d give it a 6.5. The official story I’ve been taught and raised with and seen in movies has been a 0 or 1. In “our story”, we are unequivocally the good guys and are the vanguard of morality and protectors of all things good and holy, and the Germans and Hitler are monsters. History of course is much more complex and this does a great job at highlighting that fact.

2) holy cow Stalin was a major piece of ****. Besides all the betrayals of his own people in time before the war, during:
- ordered firing squads behind military attacks so that any Russians to retreat would be shot by their fellow countrymen
- anybody caught as a POW by the Germans / enemy were considered traitors and sent to gulags
- disowned his own son who was caught as a POW
- killed and sent people to concentration camps after the war was over and Germans had surrendered
There’s plenty more too, I guess I hadn’t realized how absolutely despicable the actual man was - just a real piece of ****, no other way to put it. How history treats him like some casual figure that you can joke about etc and how he isn’t AT LEAST on the same level of unspeakable infamy as hitler, is kind of....weird, frankly
Last edited by beardmcdoug on Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby The Outsider » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:12 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
looks like its on youtube right now. I think I made it through about 1.5 hrs a little while back, was really interesting. think I'm going to finish it on an roadtrip I've got coming up



Had to do an overnight road trip and watch/listened to this whole thing.

Two things:

1) it’s definitely worth the watch. Incredibly eye opening. Really fleshes our the broader story of WW2. Much more detailed and quite frankly, seemingly more truthful account of WW2 than the “Hitler was killing a bunch of Jews so we had to go stop him” story I got in school. Everything is backed by official documents and declassified material that is easily searchable on line/wiki

2) holy cow Stalin was a major piece of ****. Besides all the betrayals of his own people in time before the war, during:
- ordered firing squads behind military attacks so that any Russians to retreat would be shot by their fellow countrymen
- anybody caught as a POW by the Germans / enemy were considered traitors and sent to gulags
- disowned his own son who was caught as a POW
- killed and sent people to concentration camps after the war was over and Germans had surrendered
There’s plenty more too, I guess I hadn’t realized how absolutely despicable the actual man was - just a real piece of ****, no other way to put it. How history treats him like some casual figure that you can joke about etc and how he isn’t AT LEAST on the same level of unspeakable infamy as hitler, is kind of....weird, frankly


I'm confused, history doesn't treat Stalin that way. Maybe the history you learned in school did, because that's definitely true, but real WWII and USSR historians and even enthusiasts are fully aware of the extent of Stalin's atrocities.

The only reason we don't learn that **** in US schools is two-fold. One, we didn't really have a lot to do with the Eastern Front, so naturally that's considered rather secondary to the Western Front activities from our perspective.

Second, we were Stalin's ally during the war and indirectly supported a lot of his ****, so no surprise that public school propaganda, I mean history, is a little light on the Stalin details.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:25 am

The Outsider wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Had to do an overnight road trip and watch/listened to this whole thing.

Two things:

1) it’s definitely worth the watch. Incredibly eye opening. Really fleshes our the broader story of WW2. Much more detailed and quite frankly, seemingly more truthful account of WW2 than the “Hitler was killing a bunch of Jews so we had to go stop him” story I got in school. Everything is backed by official documents and declassified material that is easily searchable on line/wiki

2) holy cow Stalin was a major piece of ****. Besides all the betrayals of his own people in time before the war, during:
- ordered firing squads behind military attacks so that any Russians to retreat would be shot by their fellow countrymen
- anybody caught as a POW by the Germans / enemy were considered traitors and sent to gulags
- disowned his own son who was caught as a POW
- killed and sent people to concentration camps after the war was over and Germans had surrendered
There’s plenty more too, I guess I hadn’t realized how absolutely despicable the actual man was - just a real piece of ****, no other way to put it. How history treats him like some casual figure that you can joke about etc and how he isn’t AT LEAST on the same level of unspeakable infamy as hitler, is kind of....weird, frankly


I'm confused, history doesn't treat Stalin that way. Maybe the history you learned in school did, because that's definitely true, but real WWII and USSR historians and even enthusiasts are fully aware of the extent of Stalin's atrocities.

The only reason we don't learn that **** in US schools is two-fold. One, we didn't really have a lot to do with the Eastern Front, so naturally that's considered rather secondary to the Western Front activities from our perspective.

Second, we were Stalin's ally during the war and indirectly supported a lot of his ****, so no surprise that public school propaganda, I mean history, is a little light on the Stalin details.


Right, yeah I mean I completely understand your second two points - the light this documentary sheds on those two concepts is very important though. Just because it was “our side” doesn’t make it objectively righteous

And your first point - yes, they are aware, and a lot of people are aware, the 25 million deaths number gets thrown around a lot, but the idea that it’s just like a “haha” funny thing to wear a “Communist party” shirt with his face in a birthday hat on it, or to carry around a hammer and sickle flag at general protests/ marches (I saw numerous when I was at the DC women’s march a few years back) - is just sort of a weird with casually acceptable that is.... I mean can you imagine a high schooler wearing a shirt with Hitler on it or carrying around the swastika flag - it’s on a COMPLETELY different level - truly Voldemort tier
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Re: Who is America?

Postby deltbucs » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:51 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
looks like its on youtube right now. I think I made it through about 1.5 hrs a little while back, was really interesting. think I'm going to finish it on an roadtrip I've got coming up



Had to do an overnight road trip and watch/listened to this whole thing.

Two things:

1) it’s definitely worth the watch. Incredibly eye opening. Really fleshes our the broader story of WW2. Much more detailed and quite frankly, seemingly more truthful account of WW2 than the “Hitler was killing a bunch of Jews so we had to go stop him” story I got in school. Everything is backed by official documents and declassified material that is easily searchable on line/wiki. They tell the story in a way to make a point to highlight the hypocrisy of the “official” US/Allied perspective that has been taught in schools over the last 70 years - but overall I think it’s fair. On a scale of 0-10 of bias, with 0 being very biased towards the allies perspective and 10 being biased towards the German/Nazi perspective, with 5 being completely fair, I’d give it a 6.5. The official story I’ve been taught and raised with and seen in movies has been a 0 or 1. In “our story”, we are unequivocally the good guys and are the vanguard of morality and protectors of all things good and holy, and the Germans and Hitler are monsters. History of course is much more complex and this does a great job at highlighting that fact.

2) holy cow Stalin was a major piece of ****. Besides all the betrayals of his own people in time before the war, during:
- ordered firing squads behind military attacks so that any Russians to retreat would be shot by their fellow countrymen
- anybody caught as a POW by the Germans / enemy were considered traitors and sent to gulags
- disowned his own son who was caught as a POW
- killed and sent people to concentration camps after the war was over and Germans had surrendered
There’s plenty more too, I guess I hadn’t realized how absolutely despicable the actual man was - just a real piece of ****, no other way to put it. How history treats him like some casual figure that you can joke about etc and how he isn’t AT LEAST on the same level of unspeakable infamy as hitler, is kind of....weird, frankly

I watched the first hour+ of this last night. I'm pretty skeptical of this 'documentary' at this point. At first I was thinking it's interesting to see all the good that Hitler did in the 1930's for Germany. And then all of the bad **** that he fought against. Then it got to the point where I started wondering if they'd ever bring up The Holocaust at all. I'm not sure if I'll keep watching. It's starting to seem like pro-Nazi propaganda. It's interesting and seems to be at least mostly facts, but certainly seems to be focused on telling one side of the story.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Jul 28, 2018 10:24 am

deltbucs wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Had to do an overnight road trip and watch/listened to this whole thing.

Two things:

1) it’s definitely worth the watch. Incredibly eye opening. Really fleshes our the broader story of WW2. Much more detailed and quite frankly, seemingly more truthful account of WW2 than the “Hitler was killing a bunch of Jews so we had to go stop him” story I got in school. Everything is backed by official documents and declassified material that is easily searchable on line/wiki. They tell the story in a way to make a point to highlight the hypocrisy of the “official” US/Allied perspective that has been taught in schools over the last 70 years - but overall I think it’s fair. On a scale of 0-10 of bias, with 0 being very biased towards the allies perspective and 10 being biased towards the German/Nazi perspective, with 5 being completely fair, I’d give it a 6.5. The official story I’ve been taught and raised with and seen in movies has been a 0 or 1. In “our story”, we are unequivocally the good guys and are the vanguard of morality and protectors of all things good and holy, and the Germans and Hitler are monsters. History of course is much more complex and this does a great job at highlighting that fact.

2) holy cow Stalin was a major piece of ****. Besides all the betrayals of his own people in time before the war, during:
- ordered firing squads behind military attacks so that any Russians to retreat would be shot by their fellow countrymen
- anybody caught as a POW by the Germans / enemy were considered traitors and sent to gulags
- disowned his own son who was caught as a POW
- killed and sent people to concentration camps after the war was over and Germans had surrendered
There’s plenty more too, I guess I hadn’t realized how absolutely despicable the actual man was - just a real piece of ****, no other way to put it. How history treats him like some casual figure that you can joke about etc and how he isn’t AT LEAST on the same level of unspeakable infamy as hitler, is kind of....weird, frankly

I watched the first hour+ of this last night. I'm pretty skeptical of this 'documentary' at this point. At first I was thinking it's interesting to see all the good that Hitler did in the 1930's for Germany. And then all of the bad **** that he fought against. Then it got to the point where I started wondering if they'd ever bring up The Holocaust at all. I'm not sure if I'll keep watching. It's starting to seem like pro-Nazi propaganda. It's interesting and seems to be at least mostly facts, but certainly seems to be focused on telling one side of the story.


First, delt, I appreciate that you gave it a shot on my recommendation :)

As far as one-sided, I’m fine with it, considering I’ve only gotten 1 side (our side) my entire life. Id recommend that if you recognize the bias, just look past it and take it for what it’s worth. I’ve said it before on this forum and I’ll say it again, with this sort of stuff (and most things really), a good guiding principle is: “don’t believe everything you think”, and that means in both “directions”, the truth is probably in between, and has parts from both - to whatever degree, that’s for you to come up with

Yeah that first hour and half are very interesting about Hitlers background and setting the stage for how WW2 broke out. The next two hours is practically a minute-by-minute breakdown of the war and to me, was very interesting. There’s a story there. The war makes complete sense to me now, whereas before it’s always felt like a vague good vs evil play.

I wondered the same about the omission of the holocaust. Truthfully, when I posted that this morning I was through about 4.5 hrs of it and thought it was basically done because the war was addressed and over by that point. Around that point is where the holocaust focus begins, and I’m guessing goes throughout the remaining 2 hrs or so
So it goes:
0-1.5 hrs : hitlers background / setting stage for WW2
1.5-3.5 hrs : WW2
3.5-4.5 : post war fallout/crimes
4.5-6ish : the holocaust
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Re: Who is America?

Postby deltbucs » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:02 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
deltbucs wrote:I watched the first hour+ of this last night. I'm pretty skeptical of this 'documentary' at this point. At first I was thinking it's interesting to see all the good that Hitler did in the 1930's for Germany. And then all of the bad **** that he fought against. Then it got to the point where I started wondering if they'd ever bring up The Holocaust at all. I'm not sure if I'll keep watching. It's starting to seem like pro-Nazi propaganda. It's interesting and seems to be at least mostly facts, but certainly seems to be focused on telling one side of the story.


First, delt, I appreciate that you gave it a shot on my recommendation :)

As far as one-sided, I’m fine with it, considering I’ve only gotten 1 side (our side) my entire life. Id recommend that if you recognize the bias, just look past it and take it for what it’s worth. I’ve said it before on this forum and I’ll say it again, with this sort of stuff (and most things really), a good guiding principle is: “don’t believe everything you think”, and that means in both “directions”, the truth is probably in between, and has parts from both - to whatever degree, that’s for you to come up with

Yeah that first hour and half are very interesting about Hitlers background and setting the stage for how WW2 broke out. The next two hours is practically a minute-by-minute breakdown of the war and to me, was very interesting. There’s a story there. The war makes complete sense to me now, whereas before it’s always felt like a vague good vs evil play.

I wondered the same about the omission of the holocaust. Truthfully, when I posted that this morning I was through about 4.5 hrs of it and thought it was basically done because the war was addressed and over by that point. Around that point is where the holocaust focus begins, and I’m guessing goes throughout the remaining 2 hrs or so
So it goes:
0-1.5 hrs : hitlers background / setting stage for WW2
1.5-3.5 hrs : WW2
3.5-4.5 : post war fallout/crimes
4.5-6ish : the holocaust

Right on. I'll let you know if I watch more of it. I might try to give it a shot. I will add that I stopped in Berlin last summer when I was travelling through Europe and we went to the Wall and I don't remember reading anything that portrayed Hitler much differently than how we learned in history class in the US.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:22 am

Let me know what part exposes the American left as being basically the same as the Third Reich.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby Buc2 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 11:58 am

Stuart wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:No we're rooting for the guy that kicked Hitler's ass. Pay attention.


you do realise his remains were never authenticated right?

OMG! You're Canadian? What did you do with Lachy?
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Re: Who is America?

Postby Buc2 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:19 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
looks like its on youtube right now. I think I made it through about 1.5 hrs a little while back, was really interesting. think I'm going to finish it on an roadtrip I've got coming up



Had to do an overnight road trip and watch/listened to this whole thing.

Two things:

1) it’s definitely worth the watch. Incredibly eye opening. Really fleshes our the broader story of WW2. Much more detailed and quite frankly, seemingly more truthful account of WW2 than the “Hitler was killing a bunch of Jews so we had to go stop him” story I got in school. Everything is backed by official documents and declassified material that is easily searchable on line/wiki. They tell the story in a way to make a point to highlight the hypocrisy of the “official” US/Allied perspective that has been taught in schools over the last 70 years - but overall I think it’s fair. On a scale of 0-10 of bias, with 0 being very biased towards the allies perspective and 10 being biased towards the German/Nazi perspective, with 5 being completely fair, I’d give it a 6.5. The official story I’ve been taught and raised with and seen in movies has been a 0 or 1. In “our story”, we are unequivocally the good guys and are the vanguard of morality and protectors of all things good and holy, and the Germans and Hitler are monsters. History of course is much more complex and this does a great job at highlighting that fact.

2) holy cow Stalin was a major piece of ****. Besides all the betrayals of his own people in time before the war, during:
- ordered firing squads behind military attacks so that any Russians to retreat would be shot by their fellow countrymen
- anybody caught as a POW by the Germans / enemy were considered traitors and sent to gulags
- disowned his own son who was caught as a POW
- killed and sent people to concentration camps after the war was over and Germans had surrendered
There’s plenty more too, I guess I hadn’t realized how absolutely despicable the actual man was - just a real piece of ****, no other way to put it. How history treats him like some casual figure that you can joke about etc and how he isn’t AT LEAST on the same level of unspeakable infamy as hitler, is kind of....weird, frankly

That isn't what I was taught in school. I was taught that we (the US) were content with supplying Britain and her allies with war materials, food and other necessities due to shortages. Then Pearl Harbor happened and the US declared war on Japan. Germany, being Japan's ally, then declared war on the US. It was then we entered the war for Europe. The Holocast came well after that. Hell, the allies weren't even aware of what was happening with the Jews until near the end of the war. What reports they received, they didn't really believe...or at least didn't believe the extents to which it went. It wasn't until they actually saw the camps and the piles of dead bodies and mass graves that they realized it was true.

Regardless, I'll give this documentary a try at some point.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby The Outsider » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:21 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
I'm confused, history doesn't treat Stalin that way. Maybe the history you learned in school did, because that's definitely true, but real WWII and USSR historians and even enthusiasts are fully aware of the extent of Stalin's atrocities.

The only reason we don't learn that **** in US schools is two-fold. One, we didn't really have a lot to do with the Eastern Front, so naturally that's considered rather secondary to the Western Front activities from our perspective.

Second, we were Stalin's ally during the war and indirectly supported a lot of his ****, so no surprise that public school propaganda, I mean history, is a little light on the Stalin details.


Right, yeah I mean I completely understand your second two points - the light this documentary sheds on those two concepts is very important though. Just because it was “our side” doesn’t make it objectively righteous

And your first point - yes, they are aware, and a lot of people are aware, the 25 million deaths number gets thrown around a lot, but the idea that it’s just like a “haha” funny thing to wear a “Communist party” shirt with his face in a birthday hat on it, or to carry around a hammer and sickle flag at general protests/ marches (I saw numerous when I was at the DC women’s march a few years back) - is just sort of a weird with casually acceptable that is.... I mean can you imagine a high schooler wearing a shirt with Hitler on it or carrying around the swastika flag - it’s on a COMPLETELY different level - truly Voldemort tier



Hitler actually gets the exact same treatment in Asia, most usually SE Asia. It's not shocking that cultures tend to trivialize things they weren't really exposed to. We weren't exposed to a lot of Stalin's atrocities in the same way we were Hitler's.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:36 pm

I’m not understanding this stuff I guess .... maybe I was taught very differently, I had always been taught that Uncle Joe killed many more than Hitler.

I grew up during the Cold War though. The only good thing I ever heard about Stalin was he kept the Nazis on two fronts and killed lots of them
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Re: Who is America?

Postby The Outsider » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:01 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I’m not understanding this stuff I guess .... maybe I was taught very differently, I had always been taught that Uncle Joe killed many more than Hitler.

I grew up during the Cold War though. The only good thing I ever heard about Stalin was he kept the Nazis on two fronts and killed lots of them



It's less that we aren't taught those things than that the Axis powers were by far the emphasis of WWII history education in primary schools. At least that was the case in my experience from around 1996-2005. Stalin and the USSR were mentioned in my American/World History classes but usually only briefly unless in the context of our direct interactions and relations with them. Whereas the Axis powers, specifically Germany and Japan, took up like 1/3 of the book.

You growing up during the Cold War would obviously give you a heightened awareness of the USSR. I was born in '87 so I don't even remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, much less the actual reality of the USSR.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby deltbucs » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:10 pm

Buc2 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Had to do an overnight road trip and watch/listened to this whole thing.

Two things:

1) it’s definitely worth the watch. Incredibly eye opening. Really fleshes our the broader story of WW2. Much more detailed and quite frankly, seemingly more truthful account of WW2 than the “Hitler was killing a bunch of Jews so we had to go stop him” story I got in school. Everything is backed by official documents and declassified material that is easily searchable on line/wiki. They tell the story in a way to make a point to highlight the hypocrisy of the “official” US/Allied perspective that has been taught in schools over the last 70 years - but overall I think it’s fair. On a scale of 0-10 of bias, with 0 being very biased towards the allies perspective and 10 being biased towards the German/Nazi perspective, with 5 being completely fair, I’d give it a 6.5. The official story I’ve been taught and raised with and seen in movies has been a 0 or 1. In “our story”, we are unequivocally the good guys and are the vanguard of morality and protectors of all things good and holy, and the Germans and Hitler are monsters. History of course is much more complex and this does a great job at highlighting that fact.

2) holy cow Stalin was a major piece of ****. Besides all the betrayals of his own people in time before the war, during:
- ordered firing squads behind military attacks so that any Russians to retreat would be shot by their fellow countrymen
- anybody caught as a POW by the Germans / enemy were considered traitors and sent to gulags
- disowned his own son who was caught as a POW
- killed and sent people to concentration camps after the war was over and Germans had surrendered
There’s plenty more too, I guess I hadn’t realized how absolutely despicable the actual man was - just a real piece of ****, no other way to put it. How history treats him like some casual figure that you can joke about etc and how he isn’t AT LEAST on the same level of unspeakable infamy as hitler, is kind of....weird, frankly

That isn't what I was taught in school. I was taught that we (the US) were content with supplying Britain and her allies with war materials, food and other necessities due to shortages. Then Pearl Harbor happened and the US declared war on Japan. Germany, being Japan's ally, then declared war on the US. It was then we entered the war for Europe. The Holocast came well after that. Hell, the allies weren't even aware of what was happening with the Jews until near the end of the war. What reports they received, they didn't really believe...or at least didn't believe the extents to which it went. It wasn't until they actually saw the camps and the piles of dead bodies and mass graves that they realized it was true.

Regardless, I'll give this documentary a try at some point.

You had a current events class in elementary school? That's pretty cool.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby Buc2 » Sat Jul 28, 2018 3:15 pm

:lol:

Naw. Before my time. However, we were practicing duck & cover drills when I was in elementary school...

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Re: Who is America?

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Jul 28, 2018 5:07 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I’m not understanding this stuff I guess .... maybe I was taught very differently, I had always been taught that Uncle Joe killed many more than Hitler.

I grew up during the Cold War though. The only good thing I ever heard about Stalin was he kept the Nazis on two fronts and killed lots of them



It's less that we aren't taught those things than that the Axis powers were by far the emphasis of WWII history education in primary schools. At least that was the case in my experience from around 1996-2005. Stalin and the USSR were mentioned in my American/World History classes but usually only briefly unless in the context of our direct interactions and relations with them. Whereas the Axis powers, specifically Germany and Japan, took up like 1/3 of the book.

You growing up during the Cold War would obviously give you a heightened awareness of the USSR. I was born in '87 so I don't even remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, much less the actual reality of the USSR.


Well said - that’s basically the same experience I had and I was same time period as you.

Lol WW2 was roughly:
Nice ol USA was just hanging out not wanting to get involved, then out of nowhere the freakin dirty ol japs attack Pearl Harbor and we’re like wtf!? Hell naw **** you!!! And we start fighting, and I saw Saving Private Ryan, we help the British storm Normandy and we kick ass - and wait! What’s Hitler doing with all the Jews!? He’s what!? He’s killing them!? Why!? We gotta save those Jews! Fuckin hell the guy is a madman! Lampshades!? Soap!? Holy **** the Nazis are monsters! Yeah, kill those bastards! Oh Japan won’t back off too!? Yeah nuke their asses and shut em up for good! Woo! Yeah we freed all the Jews! And some dude named Schindler helped save a bunch too or something? And yeah, Pearl Harbor was such a shitty movie, but still, I can’t believe the the Japs did that to us, what ruthless bastards. Yeah Tom Cruise you can do it! Aw **** you were so close to blowin him up! Yeah Inglorious Basterds! The Bear Jew! Yeah killin Gnazi’s is awesome! **** em!

I won’t say that’s all millenials’ exposure to WW2, but it was at least this millennial’s. A millennial who went to a blue ribbon public school, paid attention half the time, or as much as any other kid, who was moderately politically aware before 18.

Stalin/Communists have just been this sort of silly/misguided group that failed and for some reason was on our side in WW2, and has been vaguely on “the other team” ever since.

Maybe I was just a complete slacker and just didn’t pay any attention whatsoever in school, but I get the feeling that I’m not the only one in my rough age group that walks/walked around with this relatively childish/simplistic view of what went down before, during, and after ww2 - a view that was shaped/hardened probably more by movies/pop culture than text books

I hadn’t heard of “Uncle Joe” until this documentary
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Re: Who is America?

Postby The Outsider » Sat Jul 28, 2018 6:19 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
The Outsider wrote:

It's less that we aren't taught those things than that the Axis powers were by far the emphasis of WWII history education in primary schools. At least that was the case in my experience from around 1996-2005. Stalin and the USSR were mentioned in my American/World History classes but usually only briefly unless in the context of our direct interactions and relations with them. Whereas the Axis powers, specifically Germany and Japan, took up like 1/3 of the book.

You growing up during the Cold War would obviously give you a heightened awareness of the USSR. I was born in '87 so I don't even remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, much less the actual reality of the USSR.


Well said - that’s basically the same experience I had and I was same time period as you.

Lol WW2 was roughly:
Nice ol USA was just hanging out not wanting to get involved, then out of nowhere the freakin dirty ol japs attack Pearl Harbor and we’re like wtf!? Hell naw **** you!!! And we start fighting, and I saw Saving Private Ryan, we help the British storm Normandy and we kick ass - and wait! What’s Hitler doing with all the Jews!? He’s what!? He’s killing them!? Why!? We gotta save those Jews! Fuckin hell the guy is a madman! Lampshades!? Soap!? Holy **** the Nazis are monsters! Yeah, kill those bastards! Oh Japan won’t back off too!? Yeah nuke their asses and shut em up for good! Woo! Yeah we freed all the Jews! And some dude named Schindler helped save a bunch too or something? And yeah, Pearl Harbor was such a shitty movie, but still, I can’t believe the the Japs did that to us, what ruthless bastards. Yeah Tom Cruise you can do it! Aw **** you were so close to blowin him up! Yeah Inglorious Basterds! The Bear Jew! Yeah killin Gnazi’s is awesome! **** em!

I won’t say that’s all millenials’ exposure to WW2, but it was at least this millennial’s. A millennial who went to a blue ribbon public school, paid attention half the time, or as much as any other kid, who was moderately politically aware before 18.

Stalin/Communists have just been this sort of silly/misguided group that failed and for some reason was on our side in WW2, and has been vaguely on “the other team” ever since.

Maybe I was just a complete slacker and just didn’t pay any attention whatsoever in school, but I get the feeling that I’m not the only one in my rough age group that walks/walked around with this relatively childish/simplistic view of what went down before, during, and after ww2 - a view that was shaped/hardened probably more by movies/pop culture than text books

I hadn’t heard of “Uncle Joe” until this documentary


So...yeah, that's not really representative of my experience at all.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Jul 28, 2018 8:47 pm

The Outsider wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Well said - that’s basically the same experience I had and I was same time period as you.

Lol WW2 was roughly:
Nice ol USA was just hanging out not wanting to get involved, then out of nowhere the freakin dirty ol japs attack Pearl Harbor and we’re like wtf!? Hell naw **** you!!! And we start fighting, and I saw Saving Private Ryan, we help the British storm Normandy and we kick ass - and wait! What’s Hitler doing with all the Jews!? He’s what!? He’s killing them!? Why!? We gotta save those Jews! Fuckin hell the guy is a madman! Lampshades!? Soap!? Holy **** the Nazis are monsters! Yeah, kill those bastards! Oh Japan won’t back off too!? Yeah nuke their asses and shut em up for good! Woo! Yeah we freed all the Jews! And some dude named Schindler helped save a bunch too or something? And yeah, Pearl Harbor was such a shitty movie, but still, I can’t believe the the Japs did that to us, what ruthless bastards. Yeah Tom Cruise you can do it! Aw **** you were so close to blowin him up! Yeah Inglorious Basterds! The Bear Jew! Yeah killin Gnazi’s is awesome! **** em!

I won’t say that’s all millenials’ exposure to WW2, but it was at least this millennial’s. A millennial who went to a blue ribbon public school, paid attention half the time, or as much as any other kid, who was moderately politically aware before 18.

Stalin/Communists have just been this sort of silly/misguided group that failed and for some reason was on our side in WW2, and has been vaguely on “the other team” ever since.

Maybe I was just a complete slacker and just didn’t pay any attention whatsoever in school, but I get the feeling that I’m not the only one in my rough age group that walks/walked around with this relatively childish/simplistic view of what went down before, during, and after ww2 - a view that was shaped/hardened probably more by movies/pop culture than text books

I hadn’t heard of “Uncle Joe” until this documentary


So...yeah, that's not really representative of my experience at all.


Well look at you mr smarty pants
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Re: Who is America?

Postby PrimeMinister » Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:26 am

deltbucs wrote:

Holy ****. More evidence that money is running politics.


How could these people be this dumb? I know politicians are dumb, but this is mind numbingly stupid.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby Buc2 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 7:46 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
The Outsider wrote:

It's less that we aren't taught those things than that the Axis powers were by far the emphasis of WWII history education in primary schools. At least that was the case in my experience from around 1996-2005. Stalin and the USSR were mentioned in my American/World History classes but usually only briefly unless in the context of our direct interactions and relations with them. Whereas the Axis powers, specifically Germany and Japan, took up like 1/3 of the book.

You growing up during the Cold War would obviously give you a heightened awareness of the USSR. I was born in '87 so I don't even remember the fall of the Berlin Wall, much less the actual reality of the USSR.


Well said - that’s basically the same experience I had and I was same time period as you.

Lol WW2 was roughly:
Nice ol USA was just hanging out not wanting to get involved, then out of nowhere the freakin dirty ol japs attack Pearl Harbor and we’re like wtf!? Hell naw **** you!!! And we start fighting, and I saw Saving Private Ryan, we help the British storm Normandy and we kick ass - and wait! What’s Hitler doing with all the Jews!? He’s what!? He’s killing them!? Why!? We gotta save those Jews! Fuckin hell the guy is a madman! Lampshades!? Soap!? Holy **** the Nazis are monsters! Yeah, kill those bastards! Oh Japan won’t back off too!? Yeah nuke their asses and shut em up for good! Woo! Yeah we freed all the Jews! And some dude named Schindler helped save a bunch too or something? And yeah, Pearl Harbor was such a shitty movie, but still, I can’t believe the the Japs did that to us, what ruthless bastards. Yeah Tom Cruise you can do it! Aw **** you were so close to blowin him up! Yeah Inglorious Basterds! The Bear Jew! Yeah killin Gnazi’s is awesome! **** em!

I won’t say that’s all millenials’ exposure to WW2, but it was at least this millennial’s. A millennial who went to a blue ribbon public school, paid attention half the time, or as much as any other kid, who was moderately politically aware before 18.

Stalin/Communists have just been this sort of silly/misguided group that failed and for some reason was on our side in WW2, and has been vaguely on “the other team” ever since.

Maybe I was just a complete slacker and just didn’t pay any attention whatsoever in school, but I get the feeling that I’m not the only one in my rough age group that walks/walked around with this relatively childish/simplistic view of what went down before, during, and after ww2 - a view that was shaped/hardened probably more by movies/pop culture than text books

I hadn’t heard of “Uncle Joe” until this documentary


Soooo...tell me... What did you learn about the Vietnam "conflict" in your history classes? Or did it even happen?
Man, your history teachers sucked major ass.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby DreadNaught » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:21 am

I got about an hour and a half into that Hitler documentary over the weekend and will try to finish it up over the next week. But nothing I've seen thus far contradicts the history I've already known even if does display Hilter in a overly charitable way thus far. I'm only at the part where the Hitlers Germany is reuniting Austria and the part of Poland that was annexed after WW1, so I haven't got where they are talking about Stalin much and Hilter is not murdering the joos yet. I'll be interesting to see how this documentary spins that since it seems to want to tell this story from a somewhat pro-Hitler vantage point.

The rise of Hitler and his National Socialist (Nazi) platform has always been a result of the aftermath of WW1 and the Treaty of Versailles.

In the aftermath of WW2 the Allied forces annexed Germany and split via the Berlin Wall between Russian backed Communist East Germany and western backed West Germany and the foundation of the Cold War was laid as we transitioned from fighting Nazi's to fighting the spread of Communism that was growing out of Russia and China. This led us to the Korean War and later Vietnam, which in essence was a proxy war. There is a pretty good Netflix documentary by Ken Burns on Vietnam that breaks down the circumstances from the end to WW2 to the build up and start of the Vietnam War.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Jul 30, 2018 8:38 am

Buc2 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Well said - that’s basically the same experience I had and I was same time period as you.

Lol WW2 was roughly:
Nice ol USA was just hanging out not wanting to get involved, then out of nowhere the freakin dirty ol japs attack Pearl Harbor and we’re like wtf!? Hell naw **** you!!! And we start fighting, and I saw Saving Private Ryan, we help the British storm Normandy and we kick ass - and wait! What’s Hitler doing with all the Jews!? He’s what!? He’s killing them!? Why!? We gotta save those Jews! Fuckin hell the guy is a madman! Lampshades!? Soap!? Holy **** the Nazis are monsters! Yeah, kill those bastards! Oh Japan won’t back off too!? Yeah nuke their asses and shut em up for good! Woo! Yeah we freed all the Jews! And some dude named Schindler helped save a bunch too or something? And yeah, Pearl Harbor was such a shitty movie, but still, I can’t believe the the Japs did that to us, what ruthless bastards. Yeah Tom Cruise you can do it! Aw **** you were so close to blowin him up! Yeah Inglorious Basterds! The Bear Jew! Yeah killin Gnazi’s is awesome! **** em!

I won’t say that’s all millenials’ exposure to WW2, but it was at least this millennial’s. A millennial who went to a blue ribbon public school, paid attention half the time, or as much as any other kid, who was moderately politically aware before 18.

Stalin/Communists have just been this sort of silly/misguided group that failed and for some reason was on our side in WW2, and has been vaguely on “the other team” ever since.

Maybe I was just a complete slacker and just didn’t pay any attention whatsoever in school, but I get the feeling that I’m not the only one in my rough age group that walks/walked around with this relatively childish/simplistic view of what went down before, during, and after ww2 - a view that was shaped/hardened probably more by movies/pop culture than text books

I hadn’t heard of “Uncle Joe” until this documentary


Soooo...tell me... What did you learn about the Vietnam "conflict" in your history classes? Or did it even happen?
Man, your history teachers sucked major ass.


We had a typical mid-50s burn out stoner who was a real nice guy “teach” our high school’s “History of Vietnam” class. All the seniors took it. He didn’t grade papers, just gave A’s and B’s. The only thing I remember was we watched Apocalypse Now
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Re: Who is America?

Postby Brazen331 » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:18 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Let me know what part exposes the American left as being basically the same as the Third Reich.


I didn’t watch the video but the answer to your question is the Progressive Era. That’s when the American Left developed and implemented their theories of Eugenics which the Nazis later piggy-backed on. Progressives were extremely racist backed then, people like Woodrow Wilson and Margaret Sanger.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:44 am

Brazen331 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Let me know what part exposes the American left as being basically the same as the Third Reich.


I didn’t watch the video but the answer to your question is the Progressive Era. That’s when the American Left developed and implemented their theories of Eugenics which the Nazis later piggy-backed on. Progressives were extremely racist backed then, people like Woodrow Wilson and Margaret Sanger.


hah, not going to lie, I thought this was a load..... but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics

Edwin Black wrote that after the eugenics movement was well established in the United States, it was spread to Germany. California eugenicists began producing literature promoting eugenics and sterilization and sending it overseas to German scientists and medical professionals.[10] By 1933, California had subjected more people to forceful sterilization than all other U.S. states combined. The forced sterilization program engineered by the Nazis was partly inspired by California's.[2]
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Re: Who is America?

Postby RedLeader » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:52 am

Damn.


I know they didn't teach THAT in social studies.. lol.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby The Outsider » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:58 am

Buc2 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
Well said - that’s basically the same experience I had and I was same time period as you.

Lol WW2 was roughly:
Nice ol USA was just hanging out not wanting to get involved, then out of nowhere the freakin dirty ol japs attack Pearl Harbor and we’re like wtf!? Hell naw **** you!!! And we start fighting, and I saw Saving Private Ryan, we help the British storm Normandy and we kick ass - and wait! What’s Hitler doing with all the Jews!? He’s what!? He’s killing them!? Why!? We gotta save those Jews! Fuckin hell the guy is a madman! Lampshades!? Soap!? Holy **** the Nazis are monsters! Yeah, kill those bastards! Oh Japan won’t back off too!? Yeah nuke their asses and shut em up for good! Woo! Yeah we freed all the Jews! And some dude named Schindler helped save a bunch too or something? And yeah, Pearl Harbor was such a shitty movie, but still, I can’t believe the the Japs did that to us, what ruthless bastards. Yeah Tom Cruise you can do it! Aw **** you were so close to blowin him up! Yeah Inglorious Basterds! The Bear Jew! Yeah killin Gnazi’s is awesome! **** em!

I won’t say that’s all millenials’ exposure to WW2, but it was at least this millennial’s. A millennial who went to a blue ribbon public school, paid attention half the time, or as much as any other kid, who was moderately politically aware before 18.

Stalin/Communists have just been this sort of silly/misguided group that failed and for some reason was on our side in WW2, and has been vaguely on “the other team” ever since.

Maybe I was just a complete slacker and just didn’t pay any attention whatsoever in school, but I get the feeling that I’m not the only one in my rough age group that walks/walked around with this relatively childish/simplistic view of what went down before, during, and after ww2 - a view that was shaped/hardened probably more by movies/pop culture than text books

I hadn’t heard of “Uncle Joe” until this documentary


Soooo...tell me... What did you learn about the Vietnam "conflict" in your history classes? Or did it even happen?
Man, your history teachers sucked major ass.



To be perfectly honest I don't remember much specifically on Vietnam from high school. I don't recall it being as biased as the WWII era **** mostly because it was a smaller, less complicated conflict. IIRC the majority of the Vietnam War education I received in primary school focused on the political side of it more than the actual conflict. I was taught it was bloody and that we were woefully unprepared to fight the kind of war that needed to be fought. But yeah, the majority of it was really interwoven in to the Kennedy/Johnson/Nixon story with a major emphasis being put on the unrest caused by the War.

Don't get me wrong. It isn't that I didn't learn about the USSR, the Cold War was definitely a big part of the curriculum, however the humanitarian issues and just straight up murders that Stalin caused weren't really talked about. I was at one of the best high schools in the country so I don't think it was the quality of the teaching but more so the way the book was written and the way the school wanted it taught. History in primary school here is now just barely better than state propaganda. So much of the awful **** that we and our allies did are very much downplayed.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby The Outsider » Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:59 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
I didn’t watch the video but the answer to your question is the Progressive Era. That’s when the American Left developed and implemented their theories of Eugenics which the Nazis later piggy-backed on. Progressives were extremely racist backed then, people like Woodrow Wilson and Margaret Sanger.


hah, not going to lie, I thought this was a load..... but:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics

Edwin Black wrote that after the eugenics movement was well established in the United States, it was spread to Germany. California eugenicists began producing literature promoting eugenics and sterilization and sending it overseas to German scientists and medical professionals.[10] By 1933, California had subjected more people to forceful sterilization than all other U.S. states combined. The forced sterilization program engineered by the Nazis was partly inspired by California's.[2]



Yeah, we did that. Also the Tuskegee Syphilis experiments. Those were pretty dope.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Jul 30, 2018 10:16 am

I love how the US eugenics movement was started based on the writings of a guy that was pushing the idea that Mexicans were disease carriers and needed to be kept out of the country even though he had no evidence to support those claims.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Jul 30, 2018 11:41 am

bucfanclw wrote:I love how the US eugenics movement was started based on the writings of a guy that was pushing the idea that Mexicans were disease carriers and needed to be kept out of the country even though he had no evidence to support those claims.

Why would you love that?
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Re: Who is America?

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:11 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I love how the US eugenics movement was started based on the writings of a guy that was pushing the idea that Mexicans were disease carriers and needed to be kept out of the country even though he had no evidence to support those claims.

Why would you love that?

Because it shows why we need that wall.
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Re: Who is America?

Postby The Outsider » Mon Jul 30, 2018 12:27 pm

Oh yeah, there was also Operation Sea-Spray. Which is admittedly slightly less horrifying than the other two mentioned. But it goes to show that our government and military are not and never have been above experimenting on American citizens without their knowledge or concern for their well being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea-Spray
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