Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

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Do you support this bill?

Yes
1
11%
No
8
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Total votes : 9

Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:14 pm

A new bill has been introduced that is essentially going to have 95%+ of Americans subsidize the rent of people who live in cities with higher housing costs.

The "Rent Relief Act" will allow refundable tax credits to anyone who pays more than 30% of their income on rent....and it seems that 30% includes utilities. If someone has no tax liability they will actually receive a check from the federal gov't.

So basically this bill will have 95%+ of the country help subsidize cities on the coasts.






Here is more information if you want to read -- the first article is an opinion piece describing that often times the high cost of renting is due specifically to the incredibly tight regulations some of these "unaffordable" cities have put on building multi-story apartment complexes, the second is the bill itself

http://reason.com/blog/2018/07/20/new-k ... deral-taxp




https://www.harris.senate.gov/imo/media ... 1.7.19.pdf



So the question is -- Do you support the rest of the nation subsidizing renters in select cities?
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Swashy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:46 pm

This is more a reflection of the fact that the American worker gets paid jack compared to the rising cost of living than anything else. And yet we wonder how and why a welfare state has been created. I'm living proof that the single working parent household needed over $20 an hour just to even get by in suburban central Pasco County if they rent. It was $1300 even just a few years ago and **** me if I ever did better than break even and by late Feburary wasn't praying for my tax returns so I could take care of things like getting new tires and paying off the Birthday/Christmas credit card bill that I had been sitting on since late November. This bill is a crock of nonsense. Just pay people a livable wage. This isn't the 2000's anymore where you're this super big deal making $8 an hour. Triple that figure and you won't need to impose such an idea.

So in so many words no. I don't want people to support me. I want to be able to support myself. I'm going to be 30 years old in November and after a combined 7 years at it between college and professional career, I earned the right to walk away from nursing because I was sick and tired of empty promises from administration and Granny Smith trying to confusedly escape her bed while I had to simultaneously manage an admission, wound care and blood transfusion in a grand total load of 7 patients. I earned my right to be broker than **** right now because I realized my career success was not worth my happiness. I don't want sympathy, I want a viable way out and I damn sure don't need to be in tax credits.
Last edited by Swashy on Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:51 pm

Swashy wrote:This is more a reflection of the fact that the American worker gets paid jack compared to the rising cost of living than anything else. And yet we wonder how and why a welfare state has been created. I'm living proof that the single working parent household needed over $20 an hour just to even get by in suburban central Pasco County if they rent. It was $1300 even just a few years ago and **** me if I ever did better than break even and by late Feburary wasn't praying for my tax returns so I could take care of things like getting new tires and paying off the Birthday/Christmas credit card bill that I had been sitting on since late November. This bill is a crock of bull. Just pay people a livable wage. This isn't the 90's anymore where you're SUPER hot **** making $8 an hour. Triple that figure and you won't need to impose such an idea.




I am happy to discuss any of this that you want...I would just ask that when you vote you vote on the bill at hand and whether or not you think its a good idea (so far as a board we have done a great job on that). This isn't some "Let's tax the rich scheme"....poor people in lower cost cities aren't getting these subsidies and are thus adversely effected. If you want to propose something that helps everyone and doesn't play favorites, I'm happy to discuss its merits
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Swashy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:07 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Swashy wrote:This is more a reflection of the fact that the American worker gets paid jack compared to the rising cost of living than anything else. And yet we wonder how and why a welfare state has been created. I'm living proof that the single working parent household needed over $20 an hour just to even get by in suburban central Pasco County if they rent. It was $1300 even just a few years ago and **** me if I ever did better than break even and by late Feburary wasn't praying for my tax returns so I could take care of things like getting new tires and paying off the Birthday/Christmas credit card bill that I had been sitting on since late November. This bill is a crock of bull. Just pay people a livable wage. This isn't the 90's anymore where you're SUPER hot **** making $8 an hour. Triple that figure and you won't need to impose such an idea.




I am happy to discuss any of this that you want...I would just ask that when you vote you vote on the bill at hand and whether or not you think its a good idea (so far as a board we have done a great job on that). This isn't some "Let's tax the rich scheme"....poor people in lower cost cities aren't getting these subsidies and are thus adversely effected. If you want to propose something that helps everyone and doesn't play favorites, I'm happy to discuss its merits


Bah it's not you. I ate nails for breakfast and my rent/utilities is about 85% of my income and I am broker than hell. I'm grouchy and ornery. But I don't like the bill, no. It's a good temporary solution that will probably help a lot of people right away but we don't need a band aid. We need to attack the real issue of underemployment and not the rising cost of living -which is a natural and unavoidable occurrence that we have seen for well over 100 years that can be effectively dealt with better than this plan. The only way I vote for this bill is if it is temporary, like a 2 or 3 year thing kind of like how we file for unemployment to get by long enough to find a job. Redistribution does only so much. You have to get the rich, local businesses, churches, branches of government all involved at the community level in a concerted effort to attack poverty. Combine that with higher wages and we'll make things right. But that's the hard part. Right now there's a percentage of the USA that is in a "I got mine and I ain't sharing" mindset and that there is the greatest hurdle to achieving that goal. There's no way to accurately depict that number, you just have to look around and you'll come across it eventually.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:09 pm

Sounds like the start of how we get into a Hunger Games type society where we have to support 'The Capital'.

Pass...

Let the rich people in those cities subsidize rent control on a local level.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:16 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Sounds like the start of how we get into a Hunger Games type society where we have to support 'The Capital'.

Pass...

Let the rich people in those cities subsidize rent control on a local level.



What gets me is that the cities cause part of the problem as the article clearly shows


Moreover, if I have to subsidize rent in San Francisco can they subsidize some of their temperate weather? There’s a reason people want to live on the coasts near water ... that doesn’t come free.


Rent was cheap as heck in Elkhart, Indiana when I lived there because there was **** all to do there and no one wanted to live there
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:20 pm

Swashy wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:


I am happy to discuss any of this that you want...I would just ask that when you vote you vote on the bill at hand and whether or not you think its a good idea (so far as a board we have done a great job on that). This isn't some "Let's tax the rich scheme"....poor people in lower cost cities aren't getting these subsidies and are thus adversely effected. If you want to propose something that helps everyone and doesn't play favorites, I'm happy to discuss its merits


Bah it's not you. I ate nails for breakfast and my rent/utilities is about 85% of my income and I am broker than hell. I'm grouchy and ornery. But I don't like the bill, no. It's a good temporary solution that will probably help a lot of people right away but we don't need a band aid. We need to attack the real issue of underemployment and not the rising cost of living -which is a natural and unavoidable occurrence that we have seen for well over 100 years that can be effectively dealt with better than this plan. The only way I vote for this bill is if it is temporary, like a 2 or 3 year thing kind of like how we file for unemployment to get by long enough to find a job. Redistribution does only so much. You have to get the rich, local businesses, churches, branches of government all involved at the community level in a concerted effort to attack poverty. Combine that with higher wages and we'll make things right. But that's the hard part. Right now there's a percentage of the USA that is in a "I got mine and I ain't sharing" mindset and that there is the greatest hurdle to achieving that goal. There's no way to accurately depict that number, you just have to look around and you'll come across it eventually.



Good response Swashy. If you ever have time I’d like to hear your ideas on keeping housing costs (buying and renting) down. The only solution I see is dramatically increasing supply by making it as easy as possible to build.


Obviously improving wages will help but let’s not forgot if wages goes up some of that will most certainly result in higher demand for housing thus driving costs up even more.



( sending a PM your way too)
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 8:32 pm

Not to mention this bill does NOTHING to solve high housing costs ... indeed it doesn’t take a genius to figure out if the bill passes housing costs will likely go up as suppliers have even less incentive to provide low cost housing because the “customer” is now partially invisible and indirect
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:29 pm

Swashy is on the money (no pun intended) here.

Housing supply isn't the issue. There's enough vacant housing in America to house the entire homeless population in the country. This is absolutely about wages and inflation. It's a landlord's market and regular people are getting creamed.

With living wages, more people can buy, and there will be demand for better rentals at better prices than what the slumlords are peddling.

That's when you'll see rents drop instead of this idea that treats the symptom instead of the problem.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:40 pm

Supply is absolutely one of the issues in these cities .... there is article after article on the issue Should you care to look



To a lesser degree it is happening in the DFW metroplex. We are getting tons of people moving here and supply can’t keep up. Luckily our supply problem will solve itself soon as we don’t have ridiculous regulations and zoning
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:42 pm

Here’s an entire wiki article on the shortage ... they have tons of source material referenced....or as I said just google



Or don’t


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Califor ... g_shortage
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:45 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Supply is absolutely one of the issues in these cities .... there is article after article on the issue Should you care to look



To a lesser degree it is happening in the DFW metroplex. We are getting tons of people moving here and supply can’t keep up. Luckily our supply problem will solve itself soon as we don’t have ridiculous regulations and zoning

Areas that are growing like gangbusters will always have that issue. Denver is a great example of that.

I'll be happy to read the article, but if we had a wage floor that was worth a damn, some of those folks would maybe bypass DFW for OKC or other lower cost area.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jul 20, 2018 9:46 pm

With a $15 minimum wage, I'd go back to WV in a heartbeat.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby PrimeMinister » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:24 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Supply is absolutely one of the issues in these cities .... there is article after article on the issue Should you care to look



To a lesser degree it is happening in the DFW metroplex. We are getting tons of people moving here and supply can’t keep up. Luckily our supply problem will solve itself soon as we don’t have ridiculous regulations and zoning


Lack of supply is wreaking havoc on real estate here in DFW. A client who closed April 29 this year at $199K saw his home value increase to $236K by May 22. It’s insane out here and it NEEDS to slow down for the health of the market.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Swashy » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:43 pm

Jesus. Is it too early to say there's gonna be a housing bubble that bursts by the end of the year? There is no ****ing way this is going to sustain. My home... my REAL home that I rented for 3 years went from $96,000 when last sold in 2012 to worth $206,200 and has climbed $55,000 since we moved in August 2014. To make matters better they're building yet another massive development adjacent to my old neighborhood
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Cheb » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:15 pm

That bill addresses the symptom of higher rents and not the root causes of why that rent is so high. I would rather the government at all levels actually try to fix the problem instead of proposing a bandaid solution.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby MJW » Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:30 pm

Getting to live in a city is NOT a birthright.

You can't afford the rent? Move someplace you can. My dad and I did so many times growing up. Tampa was the closest thing to a "big city" we ever lived in. When I graduated high school, many of my friends moved down to NYC. I moved to Nebraska, where a one-bedroom apartment in a safe building was $300 a month at the time. They want sympathy for choosing to live someplace that costs 15x as much? No.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby The Outsider » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:34 am

I already subsidize a ton of rural folks around the country, why not urban ones too?

Either that or cut farming subisdies and economic relief to states that don't know how to run themselves any other way than in to the red.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby The Outsider » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:38 am

Swashy wrote:Jesus. Is it too early to say there's gonna be a housing bubble that bursts by the end of the year? There is no ****ing way this is going to sustain. My home... my REAL home that I rented for 3 years went from $96,000 when last sold in 2012 to worth $206,200 and has climbed $55,000 since we moved in August 2014. To make matters better they're building yet another massive development adjacent to my old neighborhood


I bought two condos in 2015/2016 for a combined $168k and some change. I'm selling them both right now for $145k a piece because I think they're at max value and as you said I think there's a bubble getting ready to burst in the next year or so.

For perspective, these condos are pretty nice, but small at ~1000 sqft each and in a safe, but run down community.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:46 am

The Outsider wrote:I already subsidize a ton of rural folks around the country, why not urban ones too?

Either that or cut farming subisdies and economic relief to states that don't know how to run themselves any other way than in to the red.




I don’t think you will find anyone in this board that supports farm subsidies. We’ve talked about this quite a bit in the past
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby The Outsider » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:10 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
The Outsider wrote:I already subsidize a ton of rural folks around the country, why not urban ones too?

Either that or cut farming subisdies and economic relief to states that don't know how to run themselves any other way than in to the red.




I don’t think you will find anyone in this board that supports farm subsidies. We’ve talked about this quite a bit in the past


My post wasn't an attempt to imply anyone supports farm subsidies. You can take what I posted there literally.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:10 am

MJW wrote:Getting to live in a city is NOT a birthright.

You can't afford the rent? Move someplace you can. My dad and I did so many times growing up. Tampa was the closest thing to a "big city" we ever lived in. When I graduated high school, many of my friends moved down to NYC. I moved to Nebraska, where a one-bedroom apartment in a safe building was $300 a month at the time. They want sympathy for choosing to live someplace that costs 15x as much? No.


People have a right to whatever they feel nowadays. It never ceases to amaze me when bills like this come along and try to separate choice from outcome

Again if I have to subsidize their living costs on the coasts and in the big cities how come they don’t have to subsidize my weather or night life or availability of stores?
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby The Outsider » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:12 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
MJW wrote:Getting to live in a city is NOT a birthright.

You can't afford the rent? Move someplace you can. My dad and I did so many times growing up. Tampa was the closest thing to a "big city" we ever lived in. When I graduated high school, many of my friends moved down to NYC. I moved to Nebraska, where a one-bedroom apartment in a safe building was $300 a month at the time. They want sympathy for choosing to live someplace that costs 15x as much? No.


People have a right to whatever they feel nowadays. It never ceases to amaze me when bills like this come along and try to separate choice from outcome

Again if I have to subsidize their living costs on the coasts and in the big cities how come they don’t have to subsidize my weather or night life or availability of stores?


Drum up support and bribe a politician to write up the legislature and they will have to subsidize that ****.
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:13 am

The Outsider wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:


I don’t think you will find anyone in this board that supports farm subsidies. We’ve talked about this quite a bit in the past


My post wasn't an attempt to imply anyone supports farm subsidies. You can take what I posted there literally.


I’ll be the first lining up behind you to end farm subsidies, Corporate subsidies, education subsidies, childcare subsidies, etc

The federal govt should NOT be in any of that. I’m 100% for simplifying the tax code to remove all that crap (even though I enjoy many of those deductions ( how is that for putting ethics above $).
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:14 am

The Outsider wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
People have a right to whatever they feel nowadays. It never ceases to amaze me when bills like this come along and try to separate choice from outcome

Again if I have to subsidize their living costs on the coasts and in the big cities how come they don’t have to subsidize my weather or night life or availability of stores?


Drum up support and bribe a politician to write up the legislature and they will have to subsidize that ****.



Lol, it’s only “fair” right. Maybe we can subsidize rural folks who have to pay higher food costs too!


Subsidize me! Subsidize everyone!!!
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Re: Can we agree? Episode 8 - It's back edition

Postby NYBF » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:30 am

Zarniwoop wrote:how come they don’t have to subsidize my weather


:roll:
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