Jordan Peterson

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Jordan Peterson

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:33 pm

So, I know I'm late to the party in catching some of this guy's work, but I have watched a lot of interviews with him recently and wanted to get a thread going about his views.

Honestly, there's a lot I like about what he says. Not everything, but even where I disagree with him on something, he presents it fairly, and unlike many people he seems to admit when he just doesn't know something. That's refreshing in a number of ways.

If you are also uninitiated, he rose to prominence in 2016 when the Canadian law adding the requirement for people to use transgender preferred pronouns was just a bill. He was part of a conversation here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kasiov0ytEc which I am presenting in its entirety and encourage anyone who is unfamiliar to watch.

He then went on a crazy long book tour and did tons of interviews, his most famous being one with Britain's Channel 4 here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

He has a lot of public comments, and he certainly has not been perfect, but a lot of that has to do with some of the ways he has been portrayed by critics. Here's a good write up on the from the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/01/putting-monsterpaint-onjordan-peterson/550859/

Wondering what other people think of him in general. I know his name has been mentioned a few times on here, but in fairly brief contexts.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:04 pm

I like him. I can't think of anyone else who is painted more untruthfully in the media then him.

There is plenty I disagree with him on (mainly its the fringe stuff for him that he doesn't really concentrate on -- e.g. economic theory)...but I have always respected the arguments that he made to make his point.


All of that said, he is definitely a product of the times...he is the direct result of the fake enlightenment thinking of post-modernism. He wouldn't have been possible without people going overboard on what he counters.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:52 pm

He's pretty awesome. He just announced some expanded tour dates and will visiting Florida in mid-September. Pre-sales were just made available today. I'll be going to Mahaffey theater in St. Pete to see him Sept. 15th.

I've already read 12 Rules for Life and listened to Maps of Meaning via audio book.

I started following him a while back after his first appearance on JRE and before Trump was elected and DRJBP was the public figure he is now. I'm an atheist and religious skeptic and I've never heard someone conceptualize religion the way he does in his lectures.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:03 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:All of that said, he is definitely a product of the times...he is the direct result of the fake enlightenment thinking of post-modernism. He wouldn't have been possible without people going overboard on what he counters.


THIS.

His messages are mostly comprised self evident truths we all know. 20 years ago his message wouldn't have the anywhere close to the audience it does today, and that is b/c people are being denied these self evident truths.

I don't agree on everything DRJBP says (which is cliche since I don't agree with everything anyone says if I listen long enough), but he's sound and consistent in his convictions so it's easy to understand how he came to his belief structure.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:06 pm

Agree with what's been said. I like the cohesive message he delivers about "the father" and society, etc and how everything ties together. It's a very compelling perspective

edit: agree with your above post DN, these are self evident truths. And he's well aware that what he's saying is not rocket science; he says it all the time. he presents it very well, and the bridges between the concepts are what makes his perspective so compelling. He's sort of got the "unified theory" thing going, but for social science. 10 years ago I would have laughed at the idea of a "unifying SOCIAL theory" being remotely on the level of a unifying SCIENTIFIC theory - but these days, the former may be more relevant and important than the latter
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:34 am

“Why should your right to free speech supersede a transperson’s right to not be offended?”

That was a serious question asked of Peterson in an interview. Serious in that it was obvious that the interviewer believed that Peterson’s right to free speech would justly be suppressed if it meant that a transperson’s feelings would be spared.

I know how the conservative class feels about this, but I’m wondering if my own party could weigh in on how you would answer the question quoted above.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:29 am

Ken Carson wrote:“Why should your right to free speech supersede a transperson’s right to not be offended?”

That was a serious question asked of Peterson in an interview. Serious in that it was obvious that the interviewer believed that Peterson’s right to free speech would justly be suppressed if it meant that a transperson’s feelings would be spared.

I know how the conservative class feels about this, but I’m wondering if my own party could weigh in on how you would answer the question quoted above.


Welcome to the wilderness Ken. You're not leaving your party, it's leaving you. You can stick to your ideals/values or you can revise them so that they check the boxes of the platform.

It happens on the right as well, so I'm not pointing fingers by any means. But the nature of being 'progressive' is to constantly push for change so imo it's easy to understand why views the Democratic party continue to change at a higher rate than that of Republicans. Conservatives by their very nature don't change at the near the rate of progressives.

The Democratic platform of 1980 was conservative compared the platform in 2000, which is WAY conservative compared to what it is in 2018.

The constantly 'progressing' platform is one of the variables that explains why people tend to become 'conservative' once they reach their mid-30's. Their values don't necessarily change, but those of the party do. Starting a family, having kids, paying taxes are some other social variables as well that explain the shift to more conservative views for some as well.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:44 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:“Why should your right to free speech supersede a transperson’s right to not be offended?”

That was a serious question asked of Peterson in an interview. Serious in that it was obvious that the interviewer believed that Peterson’s right to free speech would justly be suppressed if it meant that a transperson’s feelings would be spared.

I know how the conservative class feels about this, but I’m wondering if my own party could weigh in on how you would answer the question quoted above.


Welcome to the wilderness Ken. You're not leaving your party, it's leaving you. You can stick to your ideals/values or you can revise them so that they check the boxes of the platform.

It happens on the right as well, so I'm not pointing fingers by any means. But the nature of being 'progressive' is to constantly push for change so imo it's easy to understand why views the Democratic party continue to change at a higher rate than that of Republicans. Conservatives by their very nature don't change at the near the rate of progressives.

The Democratic platform of 1980 was conservative compared the platform in 2000, which is WAY conservative compared to what it is in 2018.

The constantly 'progressing' platform is one of the variables that explains why people tend to become 'conservative' once they reach their mid-30's. Their values don't necessarily change, but those of the party do. Starting a family, having kids, paying taxes are some other social variables as well that explain the shift to more conservative views for some as well.

Conservative by comparison. People don't just wake up one morning and decide to be conservative. I think this is natural and I think you do as well.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby The Outsider » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:31 am

Ken Carson wrote:“Why should your right to free speech supersede a transperson’s right to not be offended?”

That was a serious question asked of Peterson in an interview. Serious in that it was obvious that the interviewer believed that Peterson’s right to free speech would justly be suppressed if it meant that a transperson’s feelings would be spared.

I know how the conservative class feels about this, but I’m wondering if my own party could weigh in on how you would answer the question quoted above.



I guess I'm someone in your own party. No one has a right to not be offended. And as for free speech, everyone has a right to express their thoughts. However, that right does not free them from social consequences derived from expressing their thoughts. It only protects them from governmental and criminal consequences.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:56 am

The Outsider wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:“Why should your right to free speech supersede a transperson’s right to not be offended?”

That was a serious question asked of Peterson in an interview. Serious in that it was obvious that the interviewer believed that Peterson’s right to free speech would justly be suppressed if it meant that a transperson’s feelings would be spared.

I know how the conservative class feels about this, but I’m wondering if my own party could weigh in on how you would answer the question quoted above.



I guess I'm someone in your own party. No one has a right to not be offended. And as for free speech, everyone has a right to express their thoughts. However, that right does not free them from social consequences derived from expressing their thoughts. It only protects them from governmental and criminal consequences.

So you and I are living on the same planet. Chik-Fil-A is a good example, though not so recent. The CEO is free to say he sees marriage between a man and woman, but the public knowledge of those words could and should come with a social cost. However, the government shouldn’t punish him.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:59 am

The Outsider wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:“Why should your right to free speech supersede a transperson’s right to not be offended?”

That was a serious question asked of Peterson in an interview. Serious in that it was obvious that the interviewer believed that Peterson’s right to free speech would justly be suppressed if it meant that a transperson’s feelings would be spared.

I know how the conservative class feels about this, but I’m wondering if my own party could weigh in on how you would answer the question quoted above.



I guess I'm someone in your own party. No one has a right to not be offended. And as for free speech, everyone has a right to express their thoughts. However, that right does not free them from social consequences derived from expressing their thoughts. It only protects them from governmental and criminal consequences.


So your answer is No and that you believe a persons right to free speech does in fact supersede another persons right to not be offended.

I believe everyone should mostly agree with your follow up regarding social consequences for free speech along the the government not criminalizing fre speech.

But that leads into one of the reasons DRJBP got thrusted into popularity, which was his stance against government compelled speech, specifically around the use of these new age gender pronouns for the 70+ genders people claim to exist. That is what the question from Cathy Newman derived from that Ken is citing for context. It's not even that DRJBP wasn't willing to address an individual trans person by their preferred pronoun, just that he wasn't going to be silent about the governments role in mandating such language in a general sense via legislation.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:03 am

Ken Carson wrote:Chik-Fil-A is a good example, though not so recent. The CEO is free to say he sees marriage between a man and woman, but the public knowledge of those words could and should come with a social cost. However, the government shouldn’t punish him.


I'd hope nobody here would disagree with this. It would seem to be a pretty totalitarian viewpoint if so.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Buc2 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:17 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Welcome to the wilderness Ken. You're not leaving your party, it's leaving you. You can stick to your ideals/values or you can revise them so that they check the boxes of the platform.

It happens on the right as well, so I'm not pointing fingers by any means. But the nature of being 'progressive' is to constantly push for change so imo it's easy to understand why views the Democratic party continue to change at a higher rate than that of Republicans. Conservatives by their very nature don't change at the near the rate of progressives.

The Democratic platform of 1980 was conservative compared the platform in 2000, which is WAY conservative compared to what it is in 2018.

The constantly 'progressing' platform is one of the variables that explains why people tend to become 'conservative' once they reach their mid-30's. Their values don't necessarily change, but those of the party do. Starting a family, having kids, paying taxes are some other social variables as well that explain the shift to more conservative views for some as well.

Conservative by comparison. People don't just wake up one morning and decide to be conservative. I think this is natural and I think you do as well.

Didn't you wake up one morning and decide you were progressive? I think I recall you saying you used to be conservative.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:20 am

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Conservative by comparison. People don't just wake up one morning and decide to be conservative. I think this is natural and I think you do as well.

Didn't you wake up one morning and decide you were progressive? I think I recall you saying you used to be conservative.

No. It was an evolution over a couple of years going back to 2008. 2016 was the first time I had ever not voted for the Republican nominee for President.

I was a party line GOP voter for 20 years.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby The Outsider » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:26 am

Ken Carson wrote:
The Outsider wrote:

I guess I'm someone in your own party. No one has a right to not be offended. And as for free speech, everyone has a right to express their thoughts. However, that right does not free them from social consequences derived from expressing their thoughts. It only protects them from governmental and criminal consequences.

So you and I are living on the same planet. Chik-Fil-A is a good example, though not so recent. The CEO is free to say he sees marriage between a man and woman, but the public knowledge of those words could and should come with a social cost. However, the government shouldn’t punish him.



Exactly.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:56 am

In today’s day of faux outrage any business owner concerned for their bottom line is silly to express any political views IMO
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:01 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:In today’s day of faux outrage any business owner concerned for their bottom line is silly to express any political views IMO

Chick-fil-a's sales soared after that incident.

Mostly, I'd agree with you, though.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:03 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Chik-Fil-A is a good example, though not so recent. The CEO is free to say he sees marriage between a man and woman, but the public knowledge of those words could and should come with a social cost. However, the government shouldn’t punish him.


I'd hope nobody here would disagree with this. It would seem to be a pretty totalitarian viewpoint if so.

I’m not too sure that is the case. Outsider is the only one who has answered.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:04 pm

Eric Weinstein and JP on Rubin Report right now. Pretty awesome discussion going on.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:08 pm

Thanks for the heads up
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:29 pm

I'm not liking this one as much as most of Rubin's simply because the dynamic isn't good.

I like how Rubin steers an interview normally...he is playing zero role here.

Too many times it seems that JP and EW are talking past each other a bit -- moreso EW talking past JP...JP seems to be a better more adaptive listener...I'm not sure EW is the same.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:49 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I'm not liking this one as much as most of Rubin's simply because the dynamic isn't good.

I like how Rubin steers an interview normally...he is playing zero role here.

Too many times it seems that JP and EW are talking past each other a bit -- moreso EW talking past JP...JP seems to be a better more adaptive listener...I'm not sure EW is the same.


Eric is a talker, I agree. But he's super smart in his takes so I give it a pass.

Saw the attendance peak at 20k people watching this live. Pretty impressive for a Friday afternoon live podcast that isn't on any network or MSM outlet.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:53 pm

Overall I think this episode was just ok. I just thought the dynamic was off.

I’ve seen many better ones
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:55 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Overall I think this episode was just ok. I just thought the dynamic was off.

I’ve seen many better ones


Catching up on the first 30-45 minutes now. I liked it, but could've flowed better for sure.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jun 29, 2018 3:03 pm

I felt there were many times JP wanted to counter some points that EW was making, particularly the economic points and institutional barriers (it was around the 1 hr Mark +/- 20), but he couldn’t get a word in edgewise
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:35 am

I have been thinking more about what they were talking about near the end -- how society moves forward and how it is nearly always the result of those hyper-active people on the extreme end of the distribution. I know JP talks about this a lot with his Pareto stuff....but I think EW brought a different reference point in and the end result was very good. I found that topic the best of the show and hope they explore it more. (there are so many areas that are ripe for discussion on this topic -- economic, legal, political, business, etc)

I know the theory would drive a proggie insane but they really had some interesting points about it


I really liked how they linked it into the next topic about bureaucracy and independence
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:34 am

Jordan Peterson on the idea that European ethnic identities should be celebrated:
The Medievel Europeans identified seven deadly sins for a reason. One of them is pride. I do believe, for reasons that aren't obvious, that the West has got some things right. We've gotten the sovereignty of the individual right. That's the most fundamental thing we've got right. We've articulated that, I think, in a remarkable way, not only theologically, philosophically, but in our body of laws and our societies. And one of the consequences of that as it's had its effect on the rest of the world is that everyone is getting richer quite fast, and that's a really good thing.

Having said that, it's like, am I proud of that? I didn't do that. What the hell? Pride? What's that? That's not the right response. How about responsibility for that? How would that be? It's like you're a part of this great, this unlikely set of propositions, this strange set of propositions that says in some ineffable manner, the poorest person is as valuable as the king. It's like, 'How the hell did we ever figure that out?' That's an impossible thing to think, and yet that's the bedrock of our legal system. That's nothing to be proud of. That's something to tremble before, to take on as an ethical burden.

It's not something for you to wave a flag for how wonderful you are that you happen to have the same skin color as some of the people who thought that up. It's not the right response. It's to open your eyes and recognize that as a miracle, and a relatively new miracle on the world stage, and to participate in the process of upholding that in your personal and your public life.

That's not pride in European tradition. When I go to Europe, and I love going to Europe, and the European cities are unbelieveably masterpieces, which is why they are completely flooded with pilgrims, right? Pilgrims, tourists, who go there to look at the beauty. It's like, I don't feel pride about that. I feel like I have something to live up to. That's not the same thing, man.

And these right-wingers, who are like "Look what we've done," it's like, 'No, it's not you that did that.' That's something, man. You gotta have your act together before you would dare to say "Well, that was me." It's like, 'Yeah, sure, sure it was you. Yeah, right. No.' To stand up in your place in that miraculous historical process and not to feel shame at the way you are presently constituted in the face of that, means that you are deluded. And you're using your great fortune at being a beneficiary of that system, look at what we have right here, this great peace we're inhabiting right now. You're using your unearned gift that's been granted to you as a source of personal pride in your accomplishments due to your skin. It's like, 'No, not good. Not a good argument.'

And that doesn't mean there is nothing valuable about European culture. There's plenty. There's plenty about it that's valuable, though it's not even clear to what degree it's European. I mean, it came out of the Middle East. It's so muddle-headed that you don't even know where to start.


Remember, this is a guy that certain people on the left have termed 'the gateway to the alt-right.'
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:45 am

Good quote Ken...interesting thoughts.

It's been clear from day 1 to anyone with half a brain that JP is 100% against all forms of group identity. Some people though can't handle that.

Many times JP talks about people who were "lucky" enough to be born into good situations absolutely have a BURDEN of responsibility from that luck. It's a great thing IMO. Indeed his insistence on putting excuses aside and finding responsibility and burden and solving your own problems is a message that sadly doesn't play as much as it should today...I think ultimately this part of his message is the root of why many people dislike him so much.




----


I definitely agree that any individual shouldn't claim pride from stuff their ancestors did just like individuals shouldn't be burdened with guilt over what their ancestors did. People can however claim pride in keeping something alive...we all (well at least most of us) play a role in being one of the most diverse and accepting nations in the world, we most play a part in being one of the hardest working nations in the world, etc. etc.

While we certainly didn't start either of those two things, many people today keep those ideas alive...and they should take pride in their contribution to them.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Buc2 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:58 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Good quote Ken...interesting thoughts.

It's been clear from day 1 to anyone with half a brain that JP is 100% against all forms of group identity. Some people though can't handle that.

Many times JP talks about people who were "lucky" enough to be born into good situations absolutely have a BURDEN of responsibility from that luck. It's a great thing IMO. Indeed his insistence on putting excuses aside and finding responsibility and burden and solving your own problems is a message that sadly doesn't play as much as it should today...I think ultimately this part of his message is the root of why many people dislike him so much.




----


I definitely agree that any individual shouldn't claim pride from stuff their ancestors did just like individuals shouldn't be burdened with guilt over what their ancestors did. People can however claim pride in keeping something alive...we all (well at least most of us) play a role in being one of the most diverse and accepting nations in the world, we most play a part in being one of the hardest working nations in the world, etc. etc.

While we certainly didn't start either of those two things, many people today keep those ideas alive...and they should take pride in their contribution to them.

Well said.
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Re: Jordan Peterson

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:40 pm

listening to the new Joe Rogan and JP podcast as I eat my lunch....it's quite good. A good attack on mainstream media and political news and political parties


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Xc7DN-noAc
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