Ok....so free trade

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Ok....so free trade

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:35 am

I’m not sure we have ever had a thread that flushed out people’s opinions on free trade.

What are your general ideas on it?

Should we ever tax incoming goods?
Should we tax goods from a country at about the rate they tax ours? Higher? Lower?



One topic I had a discussion with a buddy on recently was when we trade with countries that socialize their industries to some extent and essentially have their taxpayers subsidize them, how should we deal with those countries. For example, Country A subsidizes a company such that the company can charge 20% less then market value for their products (because the loss is being passed on to the country’s citizens through tax policy). If we purchase goods from that company American consumers are essentially getting “free” stuff in a sense that the trading country’s citizens are helping Americans pay for that product. So from a consumer perspective it’s a great deal for Americans. But on the supply side, it would be unlikely that US firms can compete with the subsidized firms resulting in less jobs in general. What would you think a good policy is in these situations?
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:33 am

I've been trying to craft my view on this issue and am hesitant to opine since others are much more well versed than I. Like many polarizing issues it's complex in nature so I'll address your two questions with my current take with the caveat I can change my view b/c I'm pretty open minded on this.

Should we ever tax incoming goods?
Should we tax goods from a country at about the rate they tax ours? Higher? Lower?

Yes and Yes (about the same rate). Ideally all global trade would be 'free trade', but that isn't reality. Let's use the French wine industry as an example (since MB mentioned French wine in a different thread). The French have traditionally produced the finest wines and folks here in America that want the best things will pay that. So the French are allowed to export their wine here to America with no tariffs. So the free enterprise/competition motivated the folks in Napa Valley to make a better product/wine in order to compete while being able to sell it at a lower price. But when we export our Napa Valley wines to France it gets hit with tariffs so that our product doesn't disrupt the local wine market in France. Is that fair trade between America and France? Why are they allowed to protect their local industries through tariffs on imported goods, but America is not? Milk and Canada is another example, but there are numerous products/countries that follow this pattern.

Can anyone name a product and country that America imposes a higher tariff on their import than they put on a similar product we are exporting to them?

Being that America is the #1 consumer market in the world I think we are just accustomed to accepting unequal trade practices. It's like the 'they're rich so they can afford to get ripped off' philosophy. I may not agree with Trump's methodology to reform trade, but in principle I agree with the message. American trade policies are not equal when it comes to comparing the tariffs our exports receive to the imports on a country by country basis.

This is a very simplistic way of looking at it, and as I started with it's a complex issue that has some offsetting variables. I just believe trade can more equal from an American perspective. But just as people feel the richest people should pay the highest tax % I think that same logic justifies American trade policies.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mightyleemoon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:06 am

Ultimately, it's a price paid by the American consumer. Me. So, I'm not a fan of any tariff. At all.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Cheb » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:56 am

There is a tendency in political discussion is to compress very complicated processes into a few bullet points or ideas. These reductive points of view often miss nuances and subtleties, particularly when the item being discussed is vast or complex.

The pros and cons of international trade agreements, reciprocal tariffs, and all that jazz are way over my head for this very reason. They are imprecise tools to govern the enormous machine of international trade, which has literally billions of moving parts with millions of participants and tens of thousands of variables. I would never claim that I have enough of a mastery of this material to state an informed opinion.

I look forward to reading some brilliant economic analysis here.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby HamBone » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:14 am

If they do away with the income tax...I'd be cool with funding the government by tariffs.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:16 am

Cheb wrote:There is a tendency in political discussion is to compress very complicated processes into a few bullet points or ideas. These reductive points of view often miss nuances and subtleties, particularly when the item being discussed is vast or complex.

The pros and cons of international trade agreements, reciprocal tariffs, and all that jazz are way over my head for this very reason. They are imprecise tools to govern the enormous machine of international trade, which has literally billions of moving parts with millions of participants and tens of thousands of variables. I would never claim that I have enough of a mastery of this material to state an informed opinion.

I look forward to reading some brilliant economic analysis here.


This is how I feel also. Which is why I attempt to simplify it knowing that doing so is disservice to the much larger and more complex issue.

Like moon stated, ideally there would be no tariffs. But that isn't how works unfortunately.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mightyleemoon » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:26 am

My knowledge of tariffs pretty much begins and ends with definitions.

So, I'd be interested in knowing if I'm wrong about my assumption that, when it gets down to the bottom line, a tariff is a tax that a government places on its own companies/consumers for purchasing something coming from outside the country.

So, France makes the French pay more for an American good while America makes Americans pay more for French goods.

I get that French taxes on American goods will lead to less American goods being purchased by French folks. But, even with the trade-off that some American companies will do better with more French consumers, I'd rather Americans be able to purchase more with their dollar. Even if they are purchasing a French donut. It seems pretty unlikely that an American buying a French donut here in America wouldn't still be pouring some cash into our own economy somewhere in that chain. Somewhere, Americans are doing work to get that French donut to that American.

I don't know. I know it's complex. But, I also know I like American consumers to use more of their dollar on the good and less of that dollar to fund a corrupt political system.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:45 pm

Well Trump's tariffs are working wonderfully....not only has the prices of goods we buy gone way up (particularly steel and aluminum) now as the the Euro's return the "favor" our companies are going to start leaving.

H-D just announced they are now not only going to manufacture in Thailand, they are going to build a plant in Europe to get around the EU's new counter tariffs they put on us...the EU just put an additional 25% tariff on imported motorcycles.

(http://investor.harley-davidson.com/node/17401/html)

YAY!



I just can not understand how anyone in DC (either "team") is not going full fledge out to put pressure on him to stop this tariff madness.

Oh that's right...they are all worried about what restaurants staffers can eat in.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jun 25, 2018 12:47 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Well Trump's tariffs are working wonderfully....not only has the prices of goods we buy gone way up (particularly steel and aluminum) now as the the Euro's return the "favor" our companies are going to start leaving.

H-D just announced they are now not only going to manufacture in Thailand, they are going to build a plant in Europe to get around the EU's new counter tariffs they put on us...the EU just put an additional 25% tariff on imported motorcycles.

(http://investor.harley-davidson.com/node/17401/html)

YAY!



I just can not understand how anyone in DC (either "team") is not going full fledge out to put pressure on him to stop this tariff madness.

Oh that's right...they are all worried about what restaurants staffers can eat in.

Don't look at us, we'd impeach him this afternoon if we could.

You're going to have to talk to the ******* in red hats.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:02 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Well Trump's tariffs are working wonderfully....not only has the prices of goods we buy gone way up (particularly steel and aluminum) now as the the Euro's return the "favor" our companies are going to start leaving.

H-D just announced they are now not only going to manufacture in Thailand, they are going to build a plant in Europe to get around the EU's new counter tariffs they put on us...the EU just put an additional 25% tariff on imported motorcycles.

(http://investor.harley-davidson.com/node/17401/html)

YAY!



I just can not understand how anyone in DC (either "team") is not going full fledge out to put pressure on him to stop this tariff madness.

Oh that's right...they are all worried about what restaurants staffers can eat in.

Motorcycles Are Going Away?
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby deltbucs » Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:33 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Well Trump's tariffs are working wonderfully....not only has the prices of goods we buy gone way up (particularly steel and aluminum) now as the the Euro's return the "favor" our companies are going to start leaving.

H-D just announced they are now not only going to manufacture in Thailand, they are going to build a plant in Europe to get around the EU's new counter tariffs they put on us...the EU just put an additional 25% tariff on imported motorcycles.

(http://investor.harley-davidson.com/node/17401/html)

YAY!



I just can not understand how anyone in DC (either "team") is not going full fledge out to put pressure on him to stop this tariff madness.

Oh that's right...they are all worried about what restaurants staffers can eat in.

If this means that we don't have to deal with annoying fags riding their Harleys anymore, I'm for it.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:09 am

It looks like the only person surprised by the Harley development is the guy that caused it:

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
Surprised that Harley-Davidson, of all companies, would be the first to wave the White Flag. I fought hard for them and ultimately they will not pay tariffs selling into the E.U., which has hurt us badly on trade, down $151 Billion. Taxes just a Harley excuse - be patient! #MAGA

5:28 PM - Jun 25, 2018
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:19 am

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

....When I had Harley-Davidson officials over to the White House, I chided them about tariffs in other countries, like India, being too high. Companies are now coming back to America. Harley must know that they won’t be able to sell back into U.S. without paying a big tax!

4:37 AM - 26 Jun 2018


Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

A Harley-Davidson should never be built in another country-never! Their employees and customers are already very angry at them. If they move, watch, it will be the beginning of the end - they surrendered, they quit! The Aura will be gone and they will be taxed like never before!

5:17 AM - 26 Jun 2018


Forget it. He's rolling.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:25 am

deltbucs wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Well Trump's tariffs are working wonderfully....not only has the prices of goods we buy gone way up (particularly steel and aluminum) now as the the Euro's return the "favor" our companies are going to start leaving.

H-D just announced they are now not only going to manufacture in Thailand, they are going to build a plant in Europe to get around the EU's new counter tariffs they put on us...the EU just put an additional 25% tariff on imported motorcycles.

(http://investor.harley-davidson.com/node/17401/html)

YAY!



I just can not understand how anyone in DC (either "team") is not going full fledge out to put pressure on him to stop this tariff madness.

Oh that's right...they are all worried about what restaurants staffers can eat in.

If this means that we don't have to deal with annoying fags riding their Harleys anymore, I'm for it.

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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:28 am

bucfanclw wrote:It looks like the only person surprised by the Harley development is the guy that caused it:

Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump
Surprised that Harley-Davidson, of all companies, would be the first to wave the White Flag. I fought hard for them and ultimately they will not pay tariffs selling into the E.U., which has hurt us badly on trade, down $151 Billion. Taxes just a Harley excuse - be patient! #MAGA

5:28 PM - Jun 25, 2018




Technically speaking, Harley-Davidson motorcycles sold in the United States are not actually made here, but assembled here. Harley contracts manufacturing of parts to plants located all over the world, including Germany, Italy, Taiwan, Japan, and Mexico. Those parts are then shipped to Harley factories here. :?: :!: :!: :idea:
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:38 am

Let them go, they'll be back.

#bringbacktheflyingmerkel
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:46 am

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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:08 am

mdb1958 wrote:Let them go, they'll be back.


They're never coming back. None of those companies are ever coming back. Ever.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mdb1958 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:30 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:Let them go, they'll be back.


They're never coming back. None of those companies are ever coming back. Ever.


Have you been talking to Jesse James?
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby deltbucs » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:07 pm

Billions in U.S. solar projects shelved after Trump panel tariff

President Donald Trump’s tariff on imported solar panels has led U.S. renewable energy companies to cancel or freeze investments of more than $2.5 billion in large installation projects, along with thousands of jobs, the developers told Reuters.

That’s more than double the about $1 billion in new spending plans announced by firms building or expanding U.S. solar panel factories to take advantage of the tax on imports.

Full article....
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trum ... SKCN1J30CT

While the main objective was probably to hurt renewable energy, it's also costing us jobs.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jun 28, 2018 3:43 pm

Honestly, his tariff policy makes zero sense. I wouldn’t necessarily put his animosity to green energy on this one. That really doesn’t explain any of his other tariffs
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:22 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Honestly, his tariff policy makes zero sense. I wouldn’t necessarily put his animosity to green energy on this one. That really doesn’t explain any of his other tariffs



Deficit trading is what ruined us, wake up Zarni. It has to change.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:26 pm

Harley parts are made with cheap labor outside the US. They assemble them here in the US. They are fighting the change.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:30 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Honestly, his tariff policy makes zero sense. I wouldn’t necessarily put his animosity to green energy on this one. That really doesn’t explain any of his other tariffs



Deficit trading is what ruined us, wake up Zarni. It has to change.



Personally I love that people who make my products get paid $3.50 a day.

And I don’t care that they can’t afford products made here
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:01 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:

Deficit trading is what ruined us, wake up Zarni. It has to change.



Personally I love that people who make my products get paid $3.50 a day.

And I don’t care that they can’t afford products made here



That was the thought process that caused this ------$21,177,820,000,000. Add a million every 45 seconds...
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:26 pm

I hate to break it to you but the national debt and the trade deficit are completely two different things. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a negative trade balance


We have lots of money ... we buy lots of stuff
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby SDBucs » Fri Jun 29, 2018 12:27 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I hate to break it to you but the national debt and the trade deficit are completely two different things. There’s nothing inherently wrong with a negative trade balance


We have lots of money ... we buy lots of stuff


We can produce too

Production = jobs

Giving jobs up so products can be cheaper is what led us here. '

Short run it stings, long run we win.

You think our solar can ever compete globally if China can produce it for a fraction of the cost due to labor? How does our solar ever compete if it's starting off 2 laps behind?
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jun 29, 2018 6:51 am

You can be as protectionist as you want. If you personally feel that keeping American jobs is a priority over buying stuff from other countries then you have every right to put your money where you principles are and pay more money and buy American. All the power to you.

I will continue to buy the best product available at the best price available.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby deltbucs » Fri Jun 29, 2018 7:42 am

Zarniwoop wrote:You can be as protectionist as you want. If you personally feel that keeping American jobs is a priority over buying stuff from other countries then you have every right to put your money where you principles are and pay more money and buy American. All the power to you.

I will continue to buy the best product available at the best price available.

I really think that this is all part of the income inequality issue. I do my share of Amazon shopping, but I also like to go out of my way to support local business a lot of the times....even though it means paying more. The problem is that a lot of the economy isn't as fortunate as I am and can only afford to shop at Walmart. Local businesses can't produce products for as cheap as Walmart, Amazon, etc. The more the corporations grow and continue to hire more people and pay them **** wages, the more people can only afford their products. It's a vicious cycle and a catch 22.
When you support a local business, a lot more of your money stays in the local economy. I know this isn't really news to anyone, but I just don't like the idea of, "I will continue to buy the best product at the best available price." I'm not going to tell anyone what to do with their money, but I think it's a good idea to shop local if you care about your local community/economy....even if it means paying a little more.
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Re: Ok....so free trade

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jun 29, 2018 8:03 am

If local businesses provide superior customer service and knowledge to the big box stores (which honestly should be INCREDIBLY easy to do as most big box stores suck), I will use them as they will provide more value ~ value being a function of perceived benefits (product quality, customer service, service quality, etc) to perceived cost (price, transportation time, service time, hassle, etc).


If they don't provide better value I won't use them. Maybe they will be inspired to improve their business model. If not, I have tons of other places to go for my products/services.




Everyone should always vote with their wallet. They should spend money on what matters to them.
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