Income Equality

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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:03 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Charter schools was all we could come up with?

None of the schools I was talking about are charter schools.

sorry, I was just trying to move the conversation along. Education reform is a perfectly logical place to look for removing barriers to success, but I was hoping for a little more than that.

How about Criminal Justice?
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Buc2 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:06 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Buc2 wrote:None of the schools I was talking about are charter schools.

sorry, I was just trying to move the conversation along. Education reform is a perfectly logical place to look for removing barriers to success, but I was hoping for a little more than that.

How about Criminal Justice?

I don't know a lot about CJ. Never took any classes in it.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:12 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:sorry, I was just trying to move the conversation along. Education reform is a perfectly logical place to look for removing barriers to success, but I was hoping for a little more than that.

How about Criminal Justice?

I don't know a lot about CJ. Never took any classes in it.

We spent the 80's and 90's privatizing prisons and creating harsher sentences for convicts. We have the largest number of incarcerated people in the world.

I was thinking that maybe we could do something about that.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:14 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Buc2 wrote:I don't know a lot about CJ. Never took any classes in it.

We spent the 80's and 90's privatizing prisons and creating harsher sentences for convicts. We have the largest number of incarcerated people in the world.

I was thinking that maybe we could do something about that.


Absolutely. We need to decriminalize a lot and stop separating fathers from children.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:24 pm

Yes and to be clear I wasn’t talking exclusively about charter schools....they are just one dimension of school choice.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:40 pm

I'm down with sentencing reform for non-violent offenders.

----

I think lots of change we have to make is cultural as well. We have to emphasize not on moral grounds but on empirical, economic grounds the importance of family. As I noted earlier, the kids that are statistically the most disadvantaged are those born to young single moms. Raising a kid in your 30's when you are established is hard enough, a single 20 year old mom's job is impossible.

Raising a kid is probably as expensive as buying a house....and the decision on whether or not to have kids and when to have them should be taken with just as much seriousness and planning.

Erections have consequences
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:00 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I'm down with sentencing reform for non-violent offenders.


More.

Governors need to start looking at clemency for people already incarcerated for non-violent crimes. Trump's pardon of the Great-Grandmother was one of a tiny handful of things he has done that I support.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jun 29, 2018 10:38 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Caradoc wrote:Income inequality and wealth inequality are completely different things. The actual difference in wealth between richest and poorest has been declining for about a century now.

I'd love to see you try and prove that.

Just following up.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Ken Carson » Sat Jun 30, 2018 8:42 am

I have question that both sides should answer. I know that some of you will argue agains my question, but please first come up with reasons that would support it, then you can tear it down after a few more responses.

Why is income equality something we should strive for? Again, please answer this question, not the inverse. We will come to that.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:11 am

Ken Carson wrote:I have question that both sides should answer. I know that some of you will argue agains my question, but please first come up with reasons that would support it, then you can tear it down after a few more responses.

Why is income equality something we should strive for? Again, please answer this question, not the inverse. We will come to that.



That is a broad question -- can you please try to narrow it down a bit? Do you mean everyone should make close to the same income regardless of occupation? Do you mean that two people doing the same job should make about the same money regardless of gender, race or age?

There are most certainly some ways to define income equality that I would wholeheartedly support....others I wouldn't.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Jun 30, 2018 9:47 am

It means to me that somebody has to mop the floors, deliver the pizzas, and take out the trash.

The people that do those jobs have them because there is demand that somebody do it. They should be able to live independently at a decent standard of living for doing it.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Ken Carson » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:41 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I have question that both sides should answer. I know that some of you will argue agains my question, but please first come up with reasons that would support it, then you can tear it down after a few more responses.

Why is income equality something we should strive for? Again, please answer this question, not the inverse. We will come to that.



That is a broad question -- can you please try to narrow it down a bit? Do you mean everyone should make close to the same income regardless of occupation? Do you mean that two people doing the same job should make about the same money regardless of gender, race or age?

There are most certainly some ways to define income equality that I would wholeheartedly support....others I wouldn't.


Define it however you want, but focus on why moving towards whatever income equality is would be a good idea.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Ken Carson » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:43 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:It means to me that somebody has to mop the floors, deliver the pizzas, and take out the trash.

The people that do those jobs have them because there is demand that somebody do it. They should be able to live independently at a decent standard of living for doing it.


While that is certainly an economic goal we could aspire to, I don't see how that answers the term 'income equality.'
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Re: Income Equality

Postby uscbucsfan » Sat Jun 30, 2018 2:51 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:It means to me that somebody has to mop the floors, deliver the pizzas, and take out the trash.

The people that do those jobs have them because there is demand that somebody do it. They should be able to live independently at a decent standard of living for doing it.


While that is certainly an economic goal we could aspire to, I don't see how that answers the term 'income equality.'

IF MB doesn't believe we should achieve income equality I don't think anyone on this board does.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Jun 30, 2018 3:33 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:
While that is certainly an economic goal we could aspire to, I don't see how that answers the term 'income equality.'

IF MB doesn't believe we should achieve income equality I don't think anyone on this board does.

Total income equality is absolute nonsense. No person with a functioning brain would think a janitor should have the same income as a neurosurgeon. That is not, nor was it ever a position I hold. Nor would I vote for someone who has such a position.

That said, the income disparity that currently exists is unsustainable. Most economic growth right now is coming from interest accumulation and speculation and as I demonstrated in the Economy thread, at least half the country is losing money right now.

The government MUST do away with trickle down economic policy and adopt policies that addresses this issue, but I'm not about to hold my breath for that.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby uscbucsfan » Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:13 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:IF MB doesn't believe we should achieve income equality I don't think anyone on this board does.

Total income equality is absolute nonsense. No person with a functioning brain would think a janitor should have the same income as a neurosurgeon. That is not, nor was it ever a position I hold. Nor would I vote for someone who has such a position.

That said, the income disparity that currently exists is unsustainable. Most economic growth right now is coming from interest accumulation and speculation and as I demonstrated in the Economy thread, at least half the country is losing money right now.

The government MUST do away with trickle down economic policy and adopt policies that addresses this issue, but I'm not about to hold my breath for that.


Except in your world without money, but seriously, I never thought you believed we should have absolute income equality. You are the most extreme in this board as far as redistributing wealth, but outside your automation future hypothetical, you've never gone that far.

Of course I disagree with everything else you said, but we've been down that road many times.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Caradoc » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:49 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I'd love to see you try and prove that.

Just following up.



Sorry, I've been distracted. Be soon
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Caradoc » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:52 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:It means to me that somebody has to mop the floors, deliver the pizzas, and take out the trash.

The people that do those jobs have them because there is demand that somebody do it. They should be able to live independently at a decent standard of living for doing it.



That isn't "income inequality" that is "income floor" or "minimum wage".
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:55 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:It means to me that somebody has to mop the floors, deliver the pizzas, and take out the trash.

The people that do those jobs have them because there is demand that somebody do it. They should be able to live independently at a decent standard of living for doing it.



That isn't "income inequality" that is "income floor" or "minimum wage".

Yes. I'm trying to have it so people on the lower rungs of the economic ladder move a little closer to the people at the top.

I'm told this position is unreasonable.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Caradoc » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:44 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:We spent the 80's and 90's privatizing prisons and creating harsher sentences for convicts. We have the largest number of incarcerated people in the world.

I was thinking that maybe we could do something about that.


Absolutely. We need to decriminalize a lot and stop separating fathers from children.


More than just that. Decriminalizing some things (there are a lot that are talked about that should NOT be decriminalized), ending mandatory sentencing and "three strike laws", elimination of court fees, replace "minor" ($100 isn't minor for everyone) fines with a day or so of community service, wage garnishing rather than jail for unpaid fines (especially for ish like traffic violations), complete reform of family courts and attempt to equalize placement of children with fathers in custody disputes, eliminate alimony for shorter marriages, limit child support for lower incomes (some kind of subsidy/tax break needs to be put in place, the current system hurts everyone) find some way to hold police and court systems accountable, add a system to allow community feedback on officers (and all govt employees) to impact their pay and job security, eliminate judicial immunity, severely limit prosecutorial discretion, limit what background checks can find and when they can be used, cleaning records of old offenses, disallow credit checks for employment, limit ability of prosecutors to slam multiple/more severe offenses on people to get them to take a plea on fewer/lesser. There needs to be some serious judicial review and oversight. Privatize Social Security into a form of 401k with guaranteed minimum payments at retirement age (one of the biggest problems keeping people in poverty is the inability to accumulate money/wealth, which Social Security does NOT do). Replace the income tax system (personal and corporate, with a nominal 5% tax for foreign companies) with a national sales tax on finished products (not materials), with exemptions for food, for basic services/utilities, and for other necessities under certain thresholds. Replace the public education system with vouchers so poor kids aren't trapped.

These would be a good start.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:50 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:
Absolutely. We need to decriminalize a lot and stop separating fathers from children.


More than just that. Decriminalizing some things (there are a lot that are talked about that should NOT be decriminalized), ending mandatory sentencing and "three strike laws", elimination of court fees, replace "minor" ($100 isn't minor for everyone) fines with a day or so of community service, wage garnishing rather than jail for unpaid fines (especially for ish like traffic violations), complete reform of family courts and attempt to equalize placement of children with fathers in custody disputes, eliminate alimony for shorter marriages, limit child support for lower incomes (some kind of subsidy/tax break needs to be put in place, the current system hurts everyone) find some way to hold police and court systems accountable, add a system to allow community feedback on officers (and all govt employees) to impact their pay and job security, eliminate judicial immunity, severely limit prosecutorial discretion, limit what background checks can find and when they can be used, cleaning records of old offenses, disallow credit checks for employment, limit ability of prosecutors to slam multiple/more severe offenses on people to get them to take a plea on fewer/lesser. There needs to be some serious judicial review and oversight. Privatize Social Security into a form of 401k with guaranteed minimum payments at retirement age (one of the biggest problems keeping people in poverty is the inability to accumulate money/wealth, which Social Security does NOT do). Replace the income tax system (personal and corporate, with a nominal 5% tax for foreign companies) with a national sales tax on finished products (not materials), with exemptions for food, for basic services/utilities, and for other necessities under certain thresholds. Replace the public education system with vouchers so poor kids aren't trapped.

These would be a good start.

Don't agree with everything here, but I do agree with most of it.
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