Income Equality

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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:49 pm

I never said anything about the correlation between morality and wealth. Honestly I don’t care about that at all


My contention with unwed folks (maybe fatherless is a better term) is simply socioeconomic


———

As for opportunity ... it’s completely free. It goes back to what I said before. Work hard to give your kids a better life. Do it for a couple generations and a family has all the opportunity that they need. At some point in the past all our families were slaves or indentured servants. My family fled Soviet Russia for the privilege or working in steel mills
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:52 pm

Rocker wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I'll take it a step further and say that you can low level screw up (teen pregnancy, divorce, bankruptcy) and recover.

But I will say that you can do everything right and still end up broke.

There is no correlation between moral living and wealth accumulation.

See: Trump, Donald

They say luck is the intersection of preparation and opportunity. You advocate for preparation, I advocate for opportunity. We're both right. One is as important as the other.

But some folks seem to think opportunity is in abundance. It's not. And its more and more expensive to get.


Opportunity is in abundance. Social stigma is driving the narrative in a completely false direction. There’s an actual, factual, dearth of skilled tradesmen jobs that pay just as much (and often more) than the job a BA or BS can land you.

It’s a damn shame that society looks so poorly upon blue collar jobs.

It's a myth that those jobs are looked down on. I know no one who thinks like that.

Its a fact that college still remains the largest driver of upward mobility in the country. If it were the trades, the opposite would be true.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Rocker » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:06 pm

I’ll take it a step further and share yet another personal life experience:

I gave my GI Bill benefits to my wife. She has a BFA, and is an incredibly skilled photographer. I have no regrets about that decision.

I took the first job offer I received after my service. Negotiated a 56K salary and all of my moving expenses covered by the company. The requirements for the position? Clean driving record, High School Diploma, basic understanding of electrical theory. Inside of 90 days I earned a raise to 65K. Base. Overtime not included. Fast forward to now. I’m four credits away from my AS. Entry level for the field is ~40k. I’m making 75k base in my current job, with all the overtime I could possibly ask for.

This nonsense about opportunity needs to end. Skilled electricians, carpenters, HVAC technicians, welders, mechanics, etc etc etc are more than able to build any type of life they choose. But these types of professionals are looked down upon; so here we are.

Personal anecdotes don’t count for much, I guess. But the market bears out that hard work and dedication are still valuable commodities to employers.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Rocker » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:08 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Rocker wrote:
Opportunity is in abundance. Social stigma is driving the narrative in a completely false direction. There’s an actual, factual, dearth of skilled tradesmen jobs that pay just as much (and often more) than the job a BA or BS can land you.

It’s a damn shame that society looks so poorly upon blue collar jobs.

It's a myth that those jobs are looked down on. I know no one who thinks like that.

Its a fact that college still remains the largest driver of upward mobility in the country. If it were the trades, the opposite would be true.


I commend your social circle, I guess? Fact is, the youth are taught that college is the only path to success, and that’s a damned lie.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:09 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I never said anything about the correlation between morality and wealth. Honestly I don’t care about that at all


My contention with unwed folks (maybe fatherless is a better term) is simply socioeconomic


———

As for opportunity ... it’s completely free. It goes back to what I said before. Work hard to give your kids a better life. Do it for a couple generations and a family has all the opportunity that they need. At some point in the past all our families were slaves or indentured servants. My family fled Soviet Russia for the privilege or working in steel mills

somebody did the math on how many generations it took. I think it was 7 on average.

As for the morality thing, you talked about "making good decisions". I interpreted that as living morally.

Back on opportunity. Why is Harvard expensive? Because its worth it. You go to an institution like that and you're hard pressed to not find a great opportunity. You go to a good state school and it's the same, but to a lesser extent. You go to a small school like I did, you had better check all the boxes or you're the manager at Dollar General.


Some guys around here go on about liberals bitching about equality of outcome and as such will gang up on me in the morning for bitching about not being rich yet. It'll be a lot of fun for them but they'll be missing the point.

There is no equality of opportunity. Most folks have a long way to go. Some kids will never work a hard day in their lives.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:10 pm

Rocker wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:It's a myth that those jobs are looked down on. I know no one who thinks like that.

Its a fact that college still remains the largest driver of upward mobility in the country. If it were the trades, the opposite would be true.


I commend your social circle, I guess? Fact is, the youth are taught that college is the only path to success, and that’s a damned lie.

I didn't say only. I said best.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:11 pm

Rocker wrote:I’ll take it a step further and share yet another personal life experience:

I gave my GI Bill benefits to my wife. She has a BFA, and is an incredibly skilled photographer. I have no regrets about that decision.

I took the first job offer I received after my service. Negotiated a 56K salary and all of my moving expenses covered by the company. The requirements for the position? Clean driving record, High School Diploma, basic understanding of electrical theory. Inside of 90 days I earned a raise to 65K. Base. Overtime not included. Fast forward to now. I’m four credits away from my AS. Entry level for the field is ~40k. I’m making 75k base in my current job, with all the overtime I could possibly ask for.

This nonsense about opportunity needs to end. Skilled electricians, carpenters, HVAC technicians, welders, mechanics, etc etc etc are more than able to build any type of life they choose. But these types of professionals are looked down upon; so here we are.

Personal anecdotes don’t count for much, I guess. But the market bears out that hard work and dedication are still valuable commodities to employers.




My cousin dropped out of high school. Had his own HVAC service now. If you figure in college loans and opportunity cost he is well ahead of the curve even for College grads. All life takes is a vision and work ethic. Excellence in just about any field leads to material gain
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:12 pm

aaand I'm out.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:17 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I never said anything about the correlation between morality and wealth. Honestly I don’t care about that at all


My contention with unwed folks (maybe fatherless is a better term) is simply socioeconomic


———

As for opportunity ... it’s completely free. It goes back to what I said before. Work hard to give your kids a better life. Do it for a couple generations and a family has all the opportunity that they need. At some point in the past all our families were slaves or indentured servants. My family fled Soviet Russia for the privilege or working in steel mills

somebody did the math on how many generations it took. I think it was 7 on average.

As for the morality thing, you talked about "making good decisions". I interpreted that as living morally.

Back on opportunity. Why is Harvard expensive? Because its worth it. You go to an institution like that and you're hard pressed to not find a great opportunity. You go to a good state school and it's the same, but to a lesser extent. You go to a small school like I did, you had better check all the boxes or you're the manager at Dollar General.


Some guys around here go on about liberals bitching about equality of outcome and as such will gang up on me in the morning for bitching about not being rich yet. It'll be a lot of fun for them but they'll be missing the point.

There is no equality of opportunity. Most folks have a long way to go. Some kids will never work a hard day in their lives.



There is no doubt that some kids will never have to work hard. They are the incredibly rare exception. You can continue focusing on them if you want. All the power to you.

Meanwhile my life has taught me hard work and planning leads to success. I’ll stick with that lesson and impart it on both my family and my students


Equal opportunity is a myth. I worked as hard as amy baseball player ever did and it got me to Div III baseball. I don’t have the athletic capacity to be Mike Trout. Boo fricken hoo
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Re: Income Equality

Postby MJW » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:20 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
There is no equality of opportunity.


Not true! Many governments of the 20th century have socially and economically engineered true equality of opportunity.

It's just that everyone had the same opportunity to starve, or be shot in the back of the head and kicked into a mass grave. But still...equality!
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:00 am

MJW wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
There is no equality of opportunity.


Not true! Many governments of the 20th century have socially and economically engineered true equality of opportunity.

It's just that everyone had the same opportunity to starve, or be shot in the back of the head and kicked into a mass grave. But still...equality!

Okay. I deserve that. Now I have to say it.

Sigh....I am not suggesting, even though I kinda did, that everybody should have the exact same opportunity.

I wrongfully assumed that was a given, but when discussing the disparity of opportunity that exists and that it should be less so, I created the conditions that allow people to make reducto ad absurdum arguments.

I'll do better next time.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:35 am

Here’s the thing. Inequality exists. Can we not all agree on that?

And the reasons it exists are multifaceted.

It is not ONLY that people who work hard end up with higher incomes. There are hard working teachers, for example, who make barely a liveable wage. There are people who start at the bottom rung of society's systems, while others are born on third base (and many think they must have hit a triple), so with equal amounts of hard work, they end up with very different incomes. That is inequality. It exists, and not just in outcome. There still are barriers that limit equal opportunity, especially to education. Also, legal representation, if required. And many other things. We should all be able to agree on that.

However, where we disagree is on what to do about inequality. And here is where I will invoke my previous statement.

Many on the right simply do not regard equality of opportunity as something that should motivate them to action. I’m not even making a moral judgment that they should or they are evil. But if you look at large policy initiatives pushed by conservatives, they generally allow fo individuals to face the problems of inherent inequality without external aid. Their view of equality of opportunity is that the government should not interfere, and individuals will make their own bed. The too simplified version is that inequality is inevitable (which it is, by the way), so let individuals decide their own fate with whatever lot life has dealt them: ergo, hard work.

On the liberal end, a goal of equal opportunity, or in other cases equal access to advantages that can unlock opportunities, is in its pure form a laudable one. It is the political imperative that someone stand up for the worst off citizens, or progress is completely stopped, which no one should actually want. However, the left goes too far at times, in pursuit of these goals. And one reason they do is quite Orwellian, who said something to the effect that middle class socialists don’t so much love the poor, it’s that they hate the rich. Now, I believe that there are many well-intentioned leftists (and I hope I am among their number) who that does not describe. But I also cannot look at the state of discourse and certain policies my party is pursuing and not admit that this element exists.

What I believe is required is for the reasonable amongst us (the less detached conservatives and the well-intentioned left) is to call out the **** in our own midst, get control of our political system and then go back to how the left/right dynamic should work. The left needs to push progressive causes, while the right taps the brakes, and th result in society created leaves us at an acceptable rate of growth towards a better life for all. Allowing too much on either side is a path to the gas chambers or gulags, and neither outcome is acceptable to reasonable people.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:50 am

Ken Carson wrote:Here’s the thing. Inequality exists. Can we not all agree on that?

And the reasons it exists are multifaceted.

It is not ONLY that people who work hard end up with higher incomes. There are hard working teachers, for example, who make barely a liveable wage. There are people who start at the bottom rung of society's systems, while others are born on third base (and many think they must have hit a triple), so with equal amounts of hard work, they end up with very different incomes. That is inequality. It exists, and not just in outcome. There still are barriers that limit equal opportunity, especially to education. Also, legal representation, if required. And many other things. We should all be able to agree on that.

However, where we disagree is on what to do about inequality. And here is where I will invoke my previous statement.

Many on the right simply do not regard equality of opportunity as something that should motivate them to action. I’m not even making a moral judgment that they should or they are evil. But if you look at large policy initiatives pushed by conservatives, they generally allow fo individuals to face the problems of inherent inequality without external aid. Their view of equality of opportunity is that the government should not interfere, and individuals will make their own bed. The too simplified version is that inequality is inevitable (which it is, by the way), so let individuals decide their own fate with whatever lot life has dealt them: ergo, hard work.

On the liberal end, a goal of equal opportunity, or in other cases equal access to advantages that can unlock opportunities, is in its pure form a laudable one. It is the political imperative that someone stand up for the worst off citizens, or progress is completely stopped, which no one should actually want. However, the left goes too far at times, in pursuit of these goals. And one reason they do is quite Orwellian, who said something to the effect that middle class socialists don’t so much love the poor, it’s that they hate the rich. Now, I believe that there are many well-intentioned leftists (and I hope I am among their number) who that does not describe. But I also cannot look at the state of discourse and certain policies my party is pursuing and not admit that this element exists.

What I believe is required is for the reasonable amongst us (the less detached conservatives and the well-intentioned left) is to call out the **** in our own midst, get control of our political system and then go back to how the left/right dynamic should work. The left needs to push progressive causes, while the right taps the brakes, and th result in society created leaves us at an acceptable rate of growth towards a better life for all. Allowing too much on either side is a path to the gas chambers or gulags, and neither outcome is acceptable to reasonable people.


this is one of the best damn posts I've ever read on this forum
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:15 am

Ken Carson wrote:Here’s the thing. Inequality exists. Can we not all agree on that?



I think we can all agree on it existing.

I don't think everyone will agree with what I say next -- Inequality MUST CONTINUE TO EXIST. And I'm not just talking about inequality of outcomes, but also inequality of opportunity. Too many of my conservative and libertarian friends are too chicken **** to admit this. They all want to sit down and show how enlightened they are and spew altruisms like "equality of opportunity is a noble goal".

Here is my reasoning why this noble goal (equality of opportunity) is not only a deficient but also one that when pursued will cause much more harm than good for our society.


1. As evidenced by so many places on this message board (most notably the LOW and Prayers threads) we have some incredible dads on this board. The amount of sacrifice that these dads make for their family and specifically their kids always brings joy to me reading it. We are a bunch of good people on this board. And what is it that makes these dads work so hard and sacrifice so much? Is it so their kids can have an equal opportunity as the other ten million kids their age? Nope. It's so their kids can be put in an advantageous position. Many dads bust their asses so they can put their kids in better schools, get supplemental help when needed (tutors, coaches, etc), allow their kids more free time then the dads had growing up, giving them more freedom and choice when it comes to careers, helping pay some of their student loans, etc. For instance I have worked incredibly hard all my life so my daughter won't have to take after school jobs at 14 like I did. That she won't have the student loans that I did. Etc Etc. I don't think that is an uncommon motivation for dads...I'm not special in any way. My parents did it for me. Their parents did it for them. What kind of society would we have if regardless of how hard I worked or how much effort I put into raising my kids, my kids could only have an equal opportunity as everyone else? You think our society would have the work ethic it would has now? I don't.


2. Choices our parents (and their parents) make will always impact our opportunities. The biggest privilege in this country isn't white privilege. It's the privilege of having two parents. Every single socio-economic study shows this. And the effect size is massive. A kid who is born into a "traditional" household will have opportunities that kids born to 18 year old single moms will never have. And it's a shame for that kid born to the 18 year old but any policy to make these opportunities equal would be disastrous. Same goes for kids born to parents who set good examples in work ethic, value of education, etc.


3. People are not born equal. One of the best things about the human race is that we are all different. I'm 6'1, I was never going to be in the NBA. I'm not Brad Pitt, I was never going to be in the movies. I was born with less of some things and more of others. That simple fact shows that we will never have equality of opportunity.


4. There is only one way to give people equality of opportunity and Kurt Vonegutt talks about it in Harrison Burgeron. The only way to give people equality of opportunity is to handicap those with gifts. Otherwise those with gifts will ALWAYS do better than those without....so how much equality of opportunity can there really be if the ends are always the same?




Now don't get me wrong. I think we should try to remove as many barriers to success as we can...as such we should give people as much freedom and control over their lives as possible....we shouldn't take them away.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:33 am

Okay. Now that we have spent the early morning basically agreeing that some inequality will and should exist and that in spite of that we should remove as many barriers as possible....

What barriers would we like to remove?
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:41 am

The barrier of no school choice would be #1 for me

Economically disadvantaged kids shouldn’t have to go to shitty inner city schools that are basically day care or detention centers. They should be allowed to choose to go to schools where exceptionalism and academic success among students is the norm...not be surrounded by kids who don’t give a crap about learning or improving themselves
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Re: Income Equality

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:46 am

Zarniwoop wrote:The barrier of no school choice would be #1 for me

Economically disadvantaged kids shouldn’t have to go to shitty inner city schools that are basically day care or detention centers. They should be allowed to choose to go to schools where exceptionalism and academic success among students is the norm...not be surrounded by kids who don’t give a crap about learning or improving themselves

Maybe it's just where I live,but all the schools in my district take 10% from outside of their zoned areas. We have my son in the closest school because he's doing Spanish immersion, but one of my friends, who lives 30 min away, has his son in the same school.

I'm guessing it's not common practice?
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Re: Income Equality

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:54 am

Great post Ken, that last paragraph was especially profound imo.

We all should all (regardless of political view) strive for equality of opportunity so that through education, good life choices, and hard work ANY citizen or legal resident has the ability to change their circumstance in this country.

But some will always be born with advantages and those by in large are economic advantages (or privileges if one prefers that term). There are also social advantages like being raised by both parents in a stable and loving environment who lay the foundation of good character and values. These are the people that born on first, second, third base to use your analogy. I don't believe there is anything inherently evil or wrong with that b/c what is the alternative? We has parents work to ensure our children have advantages. I realize it's unfair that some kids are born with a silver spoon out in the Hamptons while other kids are born into an economically and socially disadvantaged situation, but that is life and we can't level the playing field. Doing so would be antithetical to what parents work their whole lives for. Imo we should focus on the disadvantaged and continue to find ways to make it easier for them to make it out of economic and social poverty without penalizing others.

The wonderful thing about America that makes us a great society is that regardless of the disadvantages one is born into financially and/or socially is that there are mechanisms that we've established that allow for upward mobility.

I know some despise Ben Shapiro, but he has highlighted 3 basic rules to follow to avoid poverty in America. All 3 rules are pretty basic and people are total control for the most part (barring unforeseen circumstances like major illness, etc). Most importantly the statistical evidence overwhelmingly supports them.

Graduate HS
Don't have a child out of wedlock
Get (and maintain) a job

Coincidentally these 3 go back to education, good life choices, and hard work which I started with. Do those 3 things and you're virtually guaranteed not to be in poverty and once you're in the middle/working class your potential for economic mobility greatly increases.

In order to ensure our most disadvantaged citizens and legal residents can meet those 3 basic goals it will take both good government and good society to encourage.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:55 am

Response to USC... I’m on my phone and forgot to quote


In Texas not only do we take zero kids from outside but you can’t even go to a different school in the district, There are 5 elementary schools in my district. My daughter is only allowed to go to the specific one I’m
Zoned to. I thought of moving to a new neighborhood in the school district 2 years ago and petitioned to get her grandfathered into the school she started in and they said no. So I didn’t move
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Re: Income Equality

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:03 am

Zarniwoop wrote:Response to USC... I’m on my phone and forgot to quote


In Texas not only do we take zero kids from outside but you can’t even go to a different school in the district, There are 5 elementary schools in my district. My daughter is only allowed to go to the specific one I’m
Zoned to. I thought of moving to a new neighborhood in the school district 2 years ago and petitioned to get her grandfathered into the school she started in and they said no. So I didn’t move

That does suck. All the schools in my district offer a different immersion program; Spanish, German, French, and Mandarin. There are 2 schools that offer each language (4 for Spanish) they encourage people to go to different schools for that purpose or just because. We thought about doing Mandarin, but the school is pretty far away and I speak Spanish, so I thought I could help him with homework and learning. The application process to go to another school is really easy. They have you fill out your info, your reason, and they do a quick interview. They said there's really not even enough kids from outside the district to fill the 10% maximum they have....so everyone gets accepted. Because SC is so backwards, I just assumed this had become pretty commonplace.

edit: I said 10%, but that applies to the immersion. The school of choice program has a hard number of seats per school. People living in the district get first priority. As many as 20 at some and as few as 5 at others. I just looked it up.

The immersion program has it's own number of seats for students zoned for other schools. 10% of the class is allocated to this.
Last edited by uscbucsfan on Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:14 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:08 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Okay. Now that we have spent the early morning basically agreeing that some inequality will and should exist and that in spite of that we should remove as many barriers as possible....

What barriers would we like to remove?


What barriers do you believe exist? Let's identify them first, then we can discuss if they need to be reformed or removed to better serve society.

Education is a key one and I agree with school choice. I don't understand why school choice has been so politicized tbh. I realize it holds teachers more accountable and the powerful teachers union care more about their union members than the interests of children's education.

I'm not banging on teachers, I think it's one of the most noble professions one can pursue in any society and would like to see more resources provided for our teachers. But the interests of kids needs to always be paramount over the job security of under performing teachers. Competition and accountability always benefit the consumer and in the case of education the consumers are the children.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:18 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Okay. Now that we have spent the early morning basically agreeing that some inequality will and should exist and that in spite of that we should remove as many barriers as possible....

What barriers would we like to remove?


What barriers do you believe exist? Let's identify them first, then we can discuss if they need to be reformed or removed to better serve society.

Education is a key one and I agree with school choice. I don't understand why school choice has been so politicized tbh. I realize it holds teachers more accountable and the powerful teachers union care more about their union members than the interests of children's education.

I'm not banging on teachers, I think it's one of the most noble professions one can pursue in any society and would like to see more resources provided for our teachers. But the interests of kids needs to always be paramount over the job security of under performing teachers. Competition and accountability always benefit the consumer and in the case of education the consumers are the children.

I'm letting others answer that question. I'd prefer to read today.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:20 am

Zarniwoop wrote:The barrier of no school choice would be #1 for me

Economically disadvantaged kids shouldn’t have to go to shitty inner city schools that are basically day care or detention centers. They should be allowed to choose to go to schools where exceptionalism and academic success among students is the norm...not be surrounded by kids who don’t give a crap about learning or improving themselves

OK, so let me challenge you a bit here. Let’s assume there are 1000 5 year-olds who live within 50 miles of a great school. Let’s also assume that the school can only accommodate 25% of these kids. How do you ensure equality of opportunity?
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:42 am

Ken Carson wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:The barrier of no school choice would be #1 for me

Economically disadvantaged kids shouldn’t have to go to shitty inner city schools that are basically day care or detention centers. They should be allowed to choose to go to schools where exceptionalism and academic success among students is the norm...not be surrounded by kids who don’t give a crap about learning or improving themselves

OK, so let me challenge you a bit here. Let’s assume there are 1000 5 year-olds who live within 50 miles of a great school. Let’s also assume that the school can only accommodate 25% of these kids. How do you ensure equality of opportunity?



With constrained resources there is no equality.

Charter schools should be given full support and equal footing to traditional public schools. As soon as they get equal funding they will solve the supply problem by opening in underserved areas.


But as long as we fund schools through local property tax, the local kids should get first choice. If those are the only good schools you either allow for competition or expand those schools to take kids from outside the district.


As far as I’m concerned the funding should follow the kid regardless of what type of school they want to go to. Do that and I promise supply will follow. It always does
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Re: Income Equality

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:47 am

Here in Pinellas, we got a notification when my son was in elementary school that our local school received a low grade and were given the option of sending him to a better rated school, which we did. I thought that was pretty common as well. Texas is a bit backwards on this. It's typically the bigger money voters that organize to keep school choice out of the discussion because they think kids from poor areas will bring down the quality of their school.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:29 am

bucfanclw wrote:Here in Pinellas, we got a notification when my son was in elementary school that our local school received a low grade and were given the option of sending him to a better rated school, which we did. I thought that was pretty common as well. Texas is a bit backwards on this. It's typically the bigger money voters that organize to keep school choice out of the discussion because they think kids from poor areas will bring down the quality of their school.

That may be one factor but I know that teachers’ unions hate school choice. I was in one for 4 years. Again, this is a multifaceted issue.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jun 27, 2018 10:32 am

Ken Carson wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Here in Pinellas, we got a notification when my son was in elementary school that our local school received a low grade and were given the option of sending him to a better rated school, which we did. I thought that was pretty common as well. Texas is a bit backwards on this. It's typically the bigger money voters that organize to keep school choice out of the discussion because they think kids from poor areas will bring down the quality of their school.

That may be one factor but I know that teachers’ unions hate school choice. I was in one for 4 years. Again, this is a multifaceted issue.




Here are the stats. You are correct

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nation ... eform/amp/
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Buc2 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:10 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Response to USC... I’m on my phone and forgot to quote


In Texas not only do we take zero kids from outside but you can’t even go to a different school in the district, There are 5 elementary schools in my district. My daughter is only allowed to go to the specific one I’m
Zoned to. I thought of moving to a new neighborhood in the school district 2 years ago and petitioned to get her grandfathered into the school she started in and they said no. So I didn’t move

That does suck. All the schools in my district offer a different immersion program; Spanish, German, French, and Mandarin. There are 2 schools that offer each language (4 for Spanish) they encourage people to go to different schools for that purpose or just because. We thought about doing Mandarin, but the school is pretty far away and I speak Spanish, so I thought I could help him with homework and learning. The application process to go to another school is really easy. They have you fill out your info, your reason, and they do a quick interview. They said there's really not even enough kids from outside the district to fill the 10% maximum they have....so everyone gets accepted. Because SC is so backwards, I just assumed this had become pretty commonplace.

edit: I said 10%, but that applies to the immersion. The school of choice program has a hard number of seats per school. People living in the district get first priority. As many as 20 at some and as few as 5 at others. I just looked it up.

The immersion program has it's own number of seats for students zoned for other schools. 10% of the class is allocated to this.

That's sort of like the Richmond, VA area high schools. My granddaughter was able to apply to numerous different high schools based on a curriculum she was interested in. For example, theater. One of the schools has a program that is heavily geared towards theater and other arts. Yes...they still have to learn math/science/English, but the heavy core is geared towards the arts. Another schools is geared more heavily to math/science, while yet another is more into human anatomy/biology. Anyway, that's the gist of it. However, the bad part is kids aren't actually allowed to choose. They have to apply and be accepted. Kinda like applying to colleges/universities. Large districts that have numerous high schools can do this. Smaller districts, like Lynchburg (where I live), cannot because there aren't enough schools to warrant that type of program. Oh...and you must find your own transportation to/from the school if it's out of your busing district.

Anyway, I hope I made since. I talked about this a while back in some other thread around here somewhere.
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jun 27, 2018 2:57 pm

Charter schools was all we could come up with?
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Re: Income Equality

Postby Buc2 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:01 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Charter schools was all we could come up with?

None of the schools I was talking about are charter schools.
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