Hate Speech / Free Speech

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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Sep 25, 2018 4:50 pm

Free speech warrior, Jordan Peterson threatened to sue a professor and writer for calling parts of his book misogynistic.
Best-selling author Jordan Peterson first shot to fame by styling himself as a free-speech warrior at the University of Toronto, where he teaches psychology. Objecting to trans people’s requests that he use their preferred pronouns, Peterson said in 2016, “I don’t recognize another person’s right to determine what pronouns I use to address them.” Later, he told the BBC, “I’ve studied authoritarianism for a very long time — for 40 years — and they’re [sic] started by people’s attempts to control the ideological and linguistic territory.”

But Peterson’s affection for unbounded “linguistic territory” only goes so far, it seems. In June, he threatened to sue Down Girl author and Cornell University assistant professor Kate Manne for defamation, after she criticized his book, 12 Rules For Life, and more generally called his work misogynistic in an interview with Vox. (Peterson previously filed a lawsuit against a university whose faculty members, in a closed-door meeting, argued that showing his videos in a classroom created an unsafe environment for students.) In letters to Manne, Cornell, and Vox, Peterson’s lawyer, Howard Levitt, demanded that all three parties “immediately retract all of Professor Manne’s defamatory statements, have them immediately removed from the internet, and issue an apology in the same forum to Mr. Peterson. Otherwise, our client will take all steps necessary to protect his professional reputation, including but not limited to initiating legal proceedings against all of you for damages.”


Figures.
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby The Outsider » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:16 pm

Ah yes, the ol "sue to have something removed from the internet" method. Shockingly ineffective, let's see how it works out for him.
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Sep 25, 2018 5:43 pm

well that's disappointing...and as Outsider said...will never work.
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:15 pm

Most of the lawsuit reads like lawyer bullshit. But she did take an opportunity to imply that he “gaslit” one of his patients. As a professional practitioner, he absolutely has the right to challenge that characterization as it could be detrimental to his future ability to earn.

Just like if I wrote an article on how MB cheated his way through accounting school and was a liar. Especially if it was published as an expert piece in a noted publication. He would have every right to sue me for defamation.

Of course, that’s a naive way to look at things. He already published an essay disputing her article. Seems like he wants to flex his muscle and show the authoritarians that they aren’t the only ones who can use the government to shut people up. Not classy, San Diego.
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby The Outsider » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:49 pm

Ken Carson wrote:Most of the lawsuit reads like lawyer bullshit. But she did take an opportunity to imply that he “gaslit” one of his patients. As a professional practitioner, he absolutely has the right to challenge that characterization as it could be detrimental to his future ability to earn.

Just like if I wrote an article on how MB cheated his way through accounting school and was a liar. Especially if it was published as an expert piece in a noted publication. He would have every right to sue me for defamation.

Of course, that’s a naive way to look at things. He already published an essay disputing her article. Seems like he wants to flex his muscle and show the authoritarians that they aren’t the only ones who can use the government to shut people up. Not classy, San Diego.



Yes! Teach the authoritarians a lesson by using authoritarian tactics against them! Brilliant!
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby mightyleemoon » Wed Sep 26, 2018 6:01 am

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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:20 am

The European Court of Human Rights has rejected a German anti-abortion activist’s case against injunctions ordering him to stop referring to abortions performed by various doctors as “aggravated murder” and comparing them with the Holocaust.

The court, based in Strasbourg, France ruled on Thursday on a string of cases involving activist Klaus Guenter Annen, who argued that the four injunctions against him issued by German courts interfered with his freedom of expression.

The European court found that Mr Annen’s accusations against the doctors, which he posted on his website and elsewhere, “had not only been very serious but might also have incited hatred and aggression”.



https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 46901.html
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:49 am

So this could have gone in the Education thread or this one...I chose this one...

A Univ of Michigan student asked one of their professors to write a recommendation letter so the student could partake in a university sanctioned study abroad program. The professor sent an e-mail to the student saying yes he would. The student later sent the details for the reference letter -- the student wanted to study in Israel.

When the professor read the student e-mail he sent an e-mail back saying he is no longer willing to write the letter because the professor is part of an Anti-Israel group (BDS). The professor actually wrote that in his e-mail back. He said, he will write the student letters to other schools because he thinks the student is a good one, just not to any school in Israel.

When the administration heard about this, they disciplined the professor for not fulfilling his duty to serve students and putting his own personal political opinions in front of his job duties -- so the professor was denied a sabbatical, promotion and raise.

Here is an excerpt from the administration:

"Withholding letters of recommendation based on personal views does not meet our university's expectations for supporting the academic aspirations of our students. Conduct that violates this expectation and harms students will not be tolerated and will be addressed with serious consequences. Such actions interfere with our students' opportunities, violate their academic freedom and betray our university's educational mission," they wrote.




I can definitely see both sides here....1.) Any professor should be able to pick and choose who they write references for -- letters shouldn't be compelled (personally when a student asks me for one, I tell them exactly what type of stuff I would write and how high a recommendation I would give and then let the student decide if they still want the letter). 2.) I can also see the university's case that this professors denial is not based on academic principles or anything related to the student's own ability...but rather just a personal political objection by the professor...and as such, the professor is failing the duties of their position.





What say you?
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Buc2 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:59 am

Zarniwoop wrote:So this could have gone in the Education thread or this one...I chose this one...

A Univ of Michigan student asked one of their professors to write a recommendation letter so the student could partake in a university sanctioned study abroad program. The professor sent an e-mail to the student saying yes he would. The student later sent the details for the reference letter -- the student wanted to study in Israel.

When the professor read the student e-mail he sent an e-mail back saying he is no longer willing to write the letter because the professor is part of an Anti-Israel group (BDS). The professor actually wrote that in his e-mail back. He said, he will write the student letters to other schools because he thinks the student is a good one, just not to any school in Israel.

When the administration heard about this, they disciplined the professor for not fulfilling his duty to serve students and putting his own personal political opinions in front of his job duties -- so the professor was denied a sabbatical, promotion and raise.

Here is an excerpt from the administration:

"Withholding letters of recommendation based on personal views does not meet our university's expectations for supporting the academic aspirations of our students. Conduct that violates this expectation and harms students will not be tolerated and will be addressed with serious consequences. Such actions interfere with our students' opportunities, violate their academic freedom and betray our university's educational mission," they wrote.




I can definitely see both sides here....1.) Any professor should be able to pick and choose who they write references for -- letters shouldn't be compelled (personally when a student asks me for one, I tell them exactly what type of stuff I would write and how high a recommendation I would give and then let the student decide if they still want the letter). 2.) I can also see the university's case that this professors denial is not based on academic principles or anything related to the student's own ability...but rather just a personal political objection by the professor...and as such, the professor is failing the duties of their position.





What say you?

I agree with the university in this specific instance.
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Ken Carson » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:26 am

Bad job by the school, IMO. If the professor has a strong belief that schools in Israel are not a good place for students to go, it’s well within his rights to not agree to actively help a student to go there. It’s the same argument you might make to say that a baker doesn’t have to create a cake for a gay wedding. You cannot force someone to do something that goes against their beliefs, or you can.
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Buc2 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:56 am

Ken Carson wrote:Bad job by the school, IMO. If the professor has a strong belief that schools in Israel are not a good place for students to go, it’s well within his rights to not agree to actively help a student to go there. It’s the same argument you might make to say that a baker doesn’t have to create a cake for a gay wedding. You cannot force someone to do something that goes against their beliefs, or you can.

That's not what the prof was saying, imo. He refused based on his anti-Israel beliefs which I took to mean Israeli politics/culture and had nothing to do with a belief that Israeli universities weren't good enough. I'm still siding with the university at this point.
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:00 am

The professor doesn’t think the school is not a good school, he just doesn’t want any money going to Israel.

Plus I would never tell a student their choice of school or job isn’t good enough for me so I’ll withhold a recommendation. I would tell them what I think is best but I wouldn’t withhold support.



I think the professor is going to sue, I don’t know if UM professors are unionized. It’s going to be interesting
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby PanteraCanes » Fri Oct 12, 2018 10:24 am

Ken Carson wrote:Bad job by the school, IMO. If the professor has a strong belief that schools in Israel are not a good place for students to go, it’s well within his rights to not agree to actively help a student to go there. It’s the same argument you might make to say that a baker doesn’t have to create a cake for a gay wedding. You cannot force someone to do something that goes against their beliefs, or you can.


To me one is an employer (even if the University is a government run one) saying what they expect out of an employee versus the government getting involved in a private business. The student is their customer. If a butcher at a local grocery store refused to help someone because of their skin color then the grocery store is well within their rights to fire that butcher and replace him.
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Re: Hate Speech / Free Speech

Postby Ken Carson » Fri Oct 12, 2018 11:59 am

Zarniwoop wrote:The professor doesn’t think the school is not a good school, he just doesn’t want any money going to Israel.

Plus I would never tell a student their choice of school or job isn’t good enough for me so I’ll withhold a recommendation. I would tell them what I think is best but I wouldn’t withhold support.



I think the professor is going to sue, I don’t know if UM professors are unionized. It’s going to be interesting

Eh, it’s the same thing to me. I don’t like policing people’s thoughts. Just their actions.
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