Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

A Place to respectfully discuss those topics that you should never discuss.
post

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:32 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I’m just confused by your line of questioning then. The Crusades were invasions and nation building.

Western Europe fought plenty of defensive battles against Muslim kingdoms in Southern Europe (Spain, Southern France, Sicily, etc), but those battles/wars predate the Crusades by 200-300 years or more. Which is why I mentioned that you lauding Christians for saving you from being Muslims was misdirected and should ave been aimed at those guys.

Quick history. The Battle of Tours was in 732. Madrid was recaptured in the 9th century. Jerusalem fell in the 7th century. The First Crusade, under the pretense of retaking Jerusalem fo Christian pilgrims, launched in 1096. It took Christians 500 years to plan how to get it back? Or thin veil for some Western Europeans to go win some lands in the Middle East during the height of feudalism?


I'm not pretending terrible things didn't happen, my point is that it was WAR. The muslims were not some peaceful group of people minding there own business. The Crusaders were able to take back their lands as well as expand their empire, which is exactly what the other side was trying to do.

The larger point is that all happened 1000 years ago. It shouldn't be ignored, nor should we dissociate ourselves from it by succumbing to PC dogma, which IS EXACTLY what happened here.

In the grand scheme of things changing a mascot is not a big deal. But the ideology that drives this action is a concern. Where does it end? Why isn't Catholicism equally offensive for the same exact reasons a "Knight" apparently is?

What lands did the Crusaders ‘re-take?’ No part of Outremer was formerly European...

As far as your extrapolation, I don’t see if as different than people wanting names like Indians, Rebels, etc changed. What positive things does the name Crusader connote?
Ken Carson
 
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:33 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 145 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:36 am

And to reiterate... my high school mascot was the Crusaders. I identify as Christian. My wife is a practicing Catholic. I thought in high school (and still think) it is a dumb mascot. Would much rather be the Wolf Pack, the Mustangs, the Wildcats or the Threshers.
Ken Carson
 
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:33 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 145 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Buc2 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:57 am

OMG! Who gives a ****?
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 9026
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 782 times
Been thanked: 288 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Mar 20, 2018 11:58 am

Buc2 wrote:OMG! Who gives a ****?

THANK YOU!
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 10708
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:02 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Buc2 wrote:OMG! Who gives a ****?

THANK YOU!

Is this A Clockwork Orange where you’re both being forced to open and read this thread?

Let’s re-focus this discussion to the real ***holes. People who feel like if a conversation is happening around them they need to make sure everyone knows how much they don’t care.
Ken Carson
 
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:33 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 145 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:07 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:THANK YOU!

Is this A Clockwork Orange where you’re both being forced to open and read this thread?

Let’s re-focus this discussion to the real ***holes. People who feel like if a conversation is happening around them they need to make sure everyone knows how much they don’t care.

Pointless bickering is pointless.

You made your point and shot down the notion that the crusades were not what they were portrayed to be.

This thread is now about hot chicks.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 10708
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby The Outsider » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:14 pm

I'm still sitting here trying to figure out what Genghis Khan has to do with the Crusades.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 3130
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 206 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:15 pm

Ken Carson wrote:And to reiterate... my high school mascot was the Crusaders. I identify as Christian. My wife is a practicing Catholic. I thought in high school (and still think) it is a dumb mascot. Would much rather be the Wolf Pack, the Mustangs, the Wildcats or the Threshers.


Like I said before changing a mascot isn't a big deal. But it's the ideology that drives this that is more of my concern. I get the argument for changing some mascots you named, even though I don't agree. But this is a Jesuit college saying "knights" is offensive. That just comes across as completely absurd to me.
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 10929
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 443 times
Been thanked: 465 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:21 pm

The Outsider wrote:I'm still sitting here trying to figure out what Genghis Khan has to do with the Crusades.



I think the reference was to the larger picture about who fought the spread of Islam
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 3943
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 110 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:23 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Is this A Clockwork Orange where you’re both being forced to open and read this thread?

Let’s re-focus this discussion to the real ***holes. People who feel like if a conversation is happening around them they need to make sure everyone knows how much they don’t care.

Pointless bickering is pointless.

.


This entire forum and board is founded on the notion of pointless bickering. Indeed you do it all the time

We all choose to do it where we have interest in a subject
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 3943
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 110 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:27 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Pointless bickering is pointless.

.


This entire forum and board is founded on the notion of pointless bickering. Indeed you do it all the time

We all choose to do it where we have interest in a subject

Well I guess I'll just have to bow out and let you guys continue this crusade.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 10708
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 555 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby NYBF » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:28 pm

WORCESTER, Mass. — The College of the Holy Cross says it will stop using the image of a knight as a logo and mascot even though trustees last month decided to keep the nickname Crusaders for its athletic teams.

The president of the Worcester, Massachusetts, Jesuit college, the Rev. Philip Boroughs, wrote in a letter to students, alumni and staff Wednesday the depiction of a knight with the moniker Crusader is an inevitable reminder of the religious wars and violence that marked the Crusades.

Boroughs says such imagery “stands in contrast” to the college’s stated values” but notes the word “crusader,” in its modern sense, means someone who stands for positive principles.

In place of a knight, Holy Cross will use an interlocking HC on a purple shield as its primary logo.
Image
User avatar
NYBF
 
Posts: 4859
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:46 am
Has thanked: 177 times
Been thanked: 398 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:31 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
This entire forum and board is founded on the notion of pointless bickering. Indeed you do it all the time

We all choose to do it where we have interest in a subject

Well I guess I'll just have to bow out and let you guys continue this crusade.


Not bad
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 3943
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 110 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby The Outsider » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:24 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
The Outsider wrote:I'm still sitting here trying to figure out what Genghis Khan has to do with the Crusades.



I think the reference was to the larger picture about who fought the spread of Islam


Which would be relevant if there was any religious motivation to what the Khan's were doing. They were pretty much equal opportunity conquerors and executioner's.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 3130
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 206 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Buc2 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:51 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I think the reference was to the larger picture about who fought the spread of Islam


Which would be relevant if there was any religious motivation to what the Khan's were doing. They were pretty much equal opportunity conquerors and executioner's.

Image
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 9026
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 782 times
Been thanked: 288 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:56 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I think the reference was to the larger picture about who fought the spread of Islam


Which would be relevant if there was any religious motivation to what the Khan's were doing. They were pretty much equal opportunity conquerors and executioner's.



That’s the point— all of these were - the Holy Romans fought more than just the Muslims....same with the Muslims. It was a time for empire building for dveryone ... that’s exactly why I said no one was “defensive”. Everyone attacked everyone where they could. All were exploitive, none were operating from a moral high ground and above reproach

It was about accumulating land and wealth.
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 3943
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 110 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Buc2 » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:02 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
Which would be relevant if there was any religious motivation to what the Khan's were doing. They were pretty much equal opportunity conquerors and executioner's.



That’s the point— all of these were - the Holy Romans fought more than just the Muslims....same with the Muslims. It was a time for empire building for dveryone ... that’s exactly why I said no one was “defensive”. Everyone attacked everyone where they could. All were exploitive, none were operating from a moral high ground and above reproach

It was about accumulating land and wealth.

That makes sense. So it was much like when the Europeans invaded North America? It was all about accumulating land & wealth and the indigenous people were in the way.
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 9026
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 782 times
Been thanked: 288 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby The Outsider » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:04 pm

Buc2 wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
Which would be relevant if there was any religious motivation to what the Khan's were doing. They were pretty much equal opportunity conquerors and executioner's.

Image



Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 3130
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 206 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby The Outsider » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:05 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

That’s the point— all of these were - the Holy Romans fought more than just the Muslims....same with the Muslims. It was a time for empire building for dveryone ... that’s exactly why I said no one was “defensive”. Everyone attacked everyone where they could. All were exploitive, none were operating from a moral high ground and above reproach

It was about accumulating land and wealth.

That makes sense. So it was much like when the Europeans invaded North America? It was all about accumulating land & wealth and the indigenous people were in the way.



More or less. Even when wars are "holy wars" that's just the cassus belli.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 3130
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 206 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:08 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

That’s the point— all of these were - the Holy Romans fought more than just the Muslims....same with the Muslims. It was a time for empire building for dveryone ... that’s exactly why I said no one was “defensive”. Everyone attacked everyone where they could. All were exploitive, none were operating from a moral high ground and above reproach

It was about accumulating land and wealth.

That makes sense. So it was much like when the Europeans invaded North America? It was all about accumulating land & wealth and the indigenous people were in the way.



Some of it yes. I don’t want to downplay the religious component because it was certainly there but it wasnt the exclusive reason (maybe for the Crusades moreso but not everything else).

The Holy Roman Empire wasn’t even a nation like we think of nations today. It was a loose collection of states — German, Swiss, Italian, etc. while there was an Emporer he didn’t have the power of what we think of as Emporers like Napoleon or Tzars like the Russians.
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 3943
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 110 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:09 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Buc2 wrote:That makes sense. So it was much like when the Europeans invaded North America? It was all about accumulating land & wealth and the indigenous people were in the way.



More or less. Even when wars are "holy wars" that's just the cassus belli.



Yep.

People were incredibly manipulated by their King’s, religious leaders, etc
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 3943
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 110 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:08 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Buc2 wrote:That makes sense. So it was much like when the Europeans invaded North America? It was all about accumulating land & wealth and the indigenous people were in the way.



More or less. Even when wars are "holy wars" that's just the cassus belli.


somebody's been playing their CK2 ;)


(great game if you haven't :) )
User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby The Outsider » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:05 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
The Outsider wrote:

More or less. Even when wars are "holy wars" that's just the cassus belli.


somebody's been playing their CK2 ;)


(great game if you haven't :) )



Probably the best game that exists, that has such a heavy emphasis on incest.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 3130
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 206 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:39 pm

The Outsider wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
somebody's been playing their CK2 ;)


(great game if you haven't :) )



Probably the best game that exists, that has such a heavy emphasis on incest.


LOL I mean if you gotta arrange a marriage between your newborn son and your 15 year old daughter from a previous wife to restore the opinions of the Holy Roman Empire then a little hunchback grandson is just the price you gotta pay
User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:33 am

What is CK2?

I find M2TW to be amazing, even 10 years after its release.
Ken Carson
 
Posts: 2731
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:33 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 145 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:38 am

Ken Carson wrote:What is CK2?

I find M2TW to be amazing, even 10 years after its release.


Crusader Kings 2 - one of the best/most intricate strategy games out there. Top 5 game of all time for me. Start in 1066, play until 1453. Choose basically any person at any level of leadership - king, vassal, duke, whatever - in depth character creator, choose all sorts of attributes that affect your diplomacy, skill in battle, ability to raise money, reproduce, all that sort of stuff. if you like history you'll love this game. closest thing to a "game of thrones" level of intrigue in a game - hell, there's even a Game of Thrones mod

User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:47 am

I need to get back into PC strategy gaming. That game looks cool. I used to play Civ (up until #3 I think) and Empire Earth. Those were my two favorites.
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 3943
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 110 times
Been thanked: 209 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:02 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I need to get back into PC strategy gaming. That game looks cool. I used to play Civ (up until #3 I think) and Empire Earth. Those were my two favorites.


Nice. Civ was one of my all-time favorites. You should definitely check this one out, you'd love it
User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 159 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby The Outsider » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:31 am

Stellaris, also by Paradox (CK2 Dev), is also a great game. Sort of a 4x/Grand Strategy hybrid in spaaaace.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 3130
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 206 times

Re: Holy Cross Knights is offensive?

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:40 am

The Outsider wrote:Stellaris, also by Paradox (CK2 Dev), is also a great game. Sort of a 4x/Grand Strategy hybrid in spaaaace.


+1


this is now a video game thread.
User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 2320
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 159 times

PreviousNext

post

Return to Politics and Religion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests