Tribalism in politics

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Tribalism in politics

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:45 pm

So I heard an interesting thought that I need to think upon...


I think we can all agree that at some level people are tribal...they like to feel included in a group. In the past, the strongest "tribal" tendencies happened through someone's extended family, church and local community.

I think we can all also agree that to some extent those three institutions to varying degrees have lost emphasis in our culture. The modern economy has many families moving all over the country (like mine) -- its no longer the case that an extended family (kids, parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc) all live in the same city as much as they used to and they don't get together as often. In addition, we are seeing the break-up of the nuclear family itself. It also seems that people don't identify with their neighbors like they used to. And finally, it seems that fewer people go to church and those that do aren't quite as active in the community as they used to be. (I remember my grandparents being at church functions 3 nights a week -- fish fry, bingo, pool, beer nights, etc).

Anyway, what I heard today, is a theory that that tribal feeling people used to get through those outlets and are no longer getting has been replaced by a tribal feeling towards political group inclusion and it is this tribalism that is helping push the already wide gap between political parties even wider.



You guys have any thoughts on this?
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:29 pm

There is some truth to that, but I’m also seeing a distancing from political tribalism entirely. A lot of people are disgusted by the “red vs blue” BS that dominates conversation. People want to just get **** done and forget partisan politics.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby beardmcdoug » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:40 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:There is some truth to that, but I’m also seeing a distancing from political tribalism entirely. A lot of people are disgusted by the “red vs blue” BS that dominates conversation. People want to just get **** done and forget partisan politics.


which, ironically, IMO, leads to a **** ton of tiny "identity pockets", which then manifests itself, politically, in this sort of meta-tribalism of groups - which then plays back into the divide and conquer tactics used by those REALLY behind the 2 party jew party (LOL), and then we end up with sort of what we see today: the blacks, queers, feminists, soyboys, and socialists VS Trump and Literal Nazis(tm)

The groups will, of course, begin to eat themselves, just like they are right now, and the same old divide and conquer, 2 party sham powers on, further grinding Americans down into unidentifiable consumerist mush, and all hope of ever ascending out of our soon-to-be technocratic dystopia will be lost by 2050
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:46 pm

Are Libertarians a tribe?
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Buc2 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:05 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Are Libertarians a tribe?

I would say, yes. And the tribe is growing.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:14 pm

This is a good thread I had thought about starting.

Joe Rogan talks about tribalism in todays political and social climates extensively with is various (non-MMA) guests. There is certainly a psychology to it that various intellectuals have delved into explaining in layman terms. Some if is human nature where people have innate need to feel accepted, part of it is laziness and not wanting to think critically, thus falling into the 'groupthink' traps akin to tribalism.

Identity politics and team politics are examples of tribalism.

I look forward to this discussion.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:22 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Are Libertarians a tribe?

I would say, yes. And the tribe is growing.

That's gotta suck. A tribe or collective comprised of individualists opposed to the concept of collectivism and tribalism.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:28 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Buc2 wrote:I would say, yes. And the tribe is growing.

That's gotta suck. A tribe or collective comprised of individualists opposed to the concept of collectivism and tribalism.


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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:42 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:That's gotta suck. A tribe or collective comprised of individualists opposed to the concept of collectivism and tribalism.


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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Sammich » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:54 pm

I very much agree that tribalism can be seen in politics. Many people are more faithful to their party than they are to what's best for the country and its people. IMO that's why so many will claim to liberal, conservative, or whatever else and cast their vote before they have even heard the topic. To paraphrase Chris Rock- "If you decide if you are liberal or conservative before you've even heard the topic at hand then you're an idiot. Some things I'm liberal about, some things I'm pretty conservative about."

One side may have an excellent idea and it just gets completely shot down because it's their idea and we won't have it. A third party may have a great idea and it gets shredded by both sides. I firmly believe we should do away with the party system for this very reason. To call it tribalism is a very good description.

I also see it happening in general society. Most people want to be a part of something and those with motives take advantage of that. Sometimes it's innocent like in advertising (dilly dilly), but sometimes its malicious. People with malicious intent often use tribalism to corrupt something that started out with good intentions for their own ends.

The pattern is pretty easy to follow if you can view it from a distance without bias. A noble cause gets started and gets a little traction. Everybody wants to be a part of it because it is noble. As it grows those with bad intent start working for their own ends under the umbrella of the noble cause. Anybody that calls out the bullshit gets ostracized because they are accused of not believing in the original, noble cause. Because people believe in the movement they are quick to defend it without evening listening to the other side. Those manipulative individuals have an entire tribe to defend them- they don't even have to get their hands dirty.

*trigger warning* I've seen this happen in movements such as feminism, black lives matter, and in the #metoo movement. IMO tribalism is why people want to fight for the 85th gender (or whatever we're up to now). They view that group as their tribe and want to defend it, regardless of any opposition thrown at it.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Buc2 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:27 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Buc2 wrote:I would say, yes. And the tribe is growing.

That's gotta suck. A tribe or collective comprised of individualists opposed to the concept of collectivism and tribalism.

I get the irony. However, in order for the Libertarian Party to curb collectivism/tribalism in politics, the Party must first gain members or they have no chance of forwarding their individualist agenda. Call it a Catch-22, if you will, but that's the way it has to be.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:42 am

I don’t know how collectivism and tribalism are being interchanged as easily as they are. They are two very different concepts in my mind
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:30 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I don’t know how collectivism and tribalism are being interchanged as easily as they are. They are two very different concepts in my mind

tribe
trīb/Submit
noun
1.
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.


col·lec·tive
kəˈlektiv/Submit
adjective
1.
done by people acting as a group.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:31 am

Not trying to be a ****. But there's just always going to be some irony when rugged individualists form groups.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Buc2 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:32 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Not trying to be a ****. But there's just always going to be some irony when rugged individualists form groups.

Yes. Nature of the beast as people like to say.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:44 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I don’t know how collectivism and tribalism are being interchanged as easily as they are. They are two very different concepts in my mind

tribe
trīb/Submit
noun
1.
a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.


col·lec·tive
kəˈlektiv/Submit
adjective
1.
done by people acting as a group.



I'm happy to play pedant and give definitions too if you want

tribalism : tribal consciousness and loyalty; especially : exaltation of the tribe above other groups

collectivism: : emphasis on collective rather than individual action




the first has to do with seeing a group in relation to other groups and is externally focused

the second has to do with position with in a group and putting the group ahead of its individual members




as for the irony...i suppose if you think the people voting in a similar way trying to obtain similar freedoms is collectivism...all the power to you. as buc2 said...it is the nature of democracy
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:47 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Not trying to be a ****. But there's just always going to be some irony when rugged individualists form groups.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:56 am

Zarniwoop wrote:So I heard an interesting thought that I need to think upon...


I think we can all agree that at some level people are tribal...they like to feel included in a group. In the past, the strongest "tribal" tendencies happened through someone's extended family, church and local community.

I think we can all also agree that to some extent those three institutions to varying degrees have lost emphasis in our culture. The modern economy has many families moving all over the country (like mine) -- its no longer the case that an extended family (kids, parents, grandparents, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc) all live in the same city as much as they used to and they don't get together as often. In addition, we are seeing the break-up of the nuclear family itself. It also seems that people don't identify with their neighbors like they used to. And finally, it seems that fewer people go to church and those that do aren't quite as active in the community as they used to be. (I remember my grandparents being at church functions 3 nights a week -- fish fry, bingo, pool, beer nights, etc).

Anyway, what I heard today, is a theory that that tribal feeling people used to get through those outlets and are no longer getting has been replaced by a tribal feeling towards political group inclusion and it is this tribalism that is helping push the already wide gap between political parties even wider.



You guys have any thoughts on this?

Fraternal organizations like the Loyal order of Moose, the VFW, Knights of Columbus, etc. appear to be in decline as well.

It's still human nature to hang out with like-minded people, but I think it's taking different forms. This forum for example.

Politically speaking, I suppose the theory is correct. Particularly when the uniting principle is distain for the "other side" which is easy when you monolith the group into a stereotype. Are all liberals egg-headed, dope-smoking eletists who don't want to work, but want everyone else to follow their instructions? Of course not. Not all conservatives are gun-toting, bible thumping, barely literate man-babies that suck up to their corporate bosses either.

But it sure is easier to think of them that way to affirm your own bias and increase solidarity with your tribe.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:58 am

A collective is certainly more appealing. Given time, others will assimilate.
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Buc2 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:30 pm

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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:36 am

paraphrasing here .....





I have an aversion to tribalism and groupthink and the extremism it leads to. I agree with most everyone on something. For instance, my liberal friends and I agree that social tolerance is a virtue. While my conservative friends and I are economically literate
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Re: Tribalism in politics

Postby Cheb » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:35 am

There's nothing wrong with being a member of a tribe. Indeed, it would be incredibly difficult to be a tribeless person in modern society.

The problems start to arise when devotion to a tribe starts to override a member's fundamental ethical and moral principles. Then that tribe member needs to start evaluating themselves critically and honestly, as well as the group to which they belong. But that rarely happens. You can't see red flags if you're wearing rose-colored glasses.

This is particularly true in the political realm. When my tribe does X, I approve because we're the "good guys." When your tribe does the exact same X, I disapprove because you're the "bad guys." That's hypocritical horseshit. You see this in Congress all the time.

Tribalism when taken to its logical conclusion gets genocidally violent. In moderation, it forces people to band together to achieve a goal which is (hopefully) greater than the sum of its parts. One hopes that the goal is noble.
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