US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:33 am

deltbucs wrote:
PetePierson wrote:
While I agree that the US is beyond gluttonous with materials, food, luxuries, etc... The 2-vehicle % comparison to most European countries is a skewed stat (IMHO). Most of those countries have a much more concentrated population, have better public transportation and can't come close to the sheer size / land mass of the US.

I am not sure if it is out there but disposable income would probably be more apt. And I am guessing that # is closer sans credit.

Thanks for holding Ken's hand for us, Pete. It really didn't seem that complicated to me. Now, enjoy arguing with Ken for a few pages about it.

I asked you to engage with my larger point. You fixated on an example without addressing the substance. Do you have any intention of engaging in a discussion on the substance of my post or are you just going to launch distractions from the peanut gallery?
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:40 am

Ken Carson wrote:The median disposable income by household in the US was $34.5K in 2015). That same year, the UK was at $22.6K. Note that is before the economy picked up even more and taxes were cut.

Except the UK median income is actually in pounds, not dollars. At an average 2015 exchange rate of $1.60 to the pound in 2015, that equates to roughly $36.16K median income.

Pip pip
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 19, 2019 8:52 am

lol.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:31 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:The median disposable income by household in the US was $34.5K in 2015). That same year, the UK was at $22.6K. Note that is before the economy picked up even more and taxes were cut.

Except the UK median income is actually in pounds, not dollars. At an average 2015 exchange rate of $1.60 to the pound in 2015, that equates to roughly $36.16K median income.

Pip pip



where did you get that exchange rate? (I went back and looked at my tax return for that year) I had two international transactions from the UK that year (payments to me), neither had that exchange rate (even after backing out up front fees and allowing for a reasonable exchange % margin ). Maybe I got ripped off!!!!
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:36 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:The median disposable income by household in the US was $34.5K in 2015). That same year, the UK was at $22.6K. Note that is before the economy picked up even more and taxes were cut.

Except the UK median income is actually in pounds, not dollars. At an average 2015 exchange rate of $1.60 to the pound in 2015, that equates to roughly $36.16K median income.

Pip pip

The data set I was looking converted everything to US dollars. For some reason the site currently only has the mean, which unfairly weights the US, but the write up online also provided the median.

https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-dis ... income.htm

Cheerio!
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:40 am

Ken Carson wrote:The median disposable income by household in the US was $34.5K in 2015).


Disposable income is defined as follows: income remaining after deduction of taxes and other mandatory charges, available to be spent or saved as one wishes.

So its income after taxes. Let's see how much money we have for all this luxury after the bare essentials.

Rent- $16,860
electric- $1340.04 Floridians should be rioting over this. I pay almost 3 times that.
water- $1,248
Food- $7,729

Leaving the average household with a whopping $7,322.96 (or $610.25 per month) to cover health insurance, cars, insurance, gas, trash, and we haven't even subscribed to Netflix yet.

MEAN discretionary income (Income after essentials like food and shelter) is $1,729 per month. Which means you six figure earners skew the number upwards.

Happy Thanksgiving.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby PetePierson » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:45 am

3x that? You have a grow operation in your place?

One way to supplement income. Savvy.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:47 am

your two measures (Ken and MB) are measuring things in substantially different ways...both are useful IMO when talking about the relative strength of purchasing power of a family.

Ken's seems more geared towards gross benefits received, MB's more towards money you have in your wallet so to speak.

Both allow for reasonable discussion on their own and collectively.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:53 am

PetePierson wrote:3x that? You have a grow operation in your place?

One way to supplement income. Savvy.

I have electricity hog teenagers so that skews it a bit, but my electric bill last month was $285 after I shut the AC off. In the summer I'm regularly over $300 for power.

Water is dirt cheap tho.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby PetePierson » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:56 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:I have electricity hog teenagers so that skews it a bit, but my electric bill last month was $285 after I shut the AC off.


That's nuts. And you are in the Panhandle or VA?
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby PanteraCanes » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:10 am

My assumption would be that he used a study that already adjusted all to a common currency. Either wikipedia was his source or it referenced the same study which would seem to support this assumption of mine.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:17 am

PetePierson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I have electricity hog teenagers so that skews it a bit, but my electric bill last month was $285 after I shut the AC off.


That's nuts. And you are in the Panhandle or VA?

Panhandle. House is 1,986 sq ft.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby TheChefO » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:27 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:...House is 1,986 sq ft.


What about the greenhouse?
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:28 am

PanteraCanes wrote:My assumption would be that he used a study that already adjusted all to a common currency. Either wikipedia was his source or it referenced the same study which would seem to support this assumption of mine.

Yeah, somehow I was able to avoid the trap of the currency conversion.

Listen, I’m not here saying people don’t struggle. My wife and I had a combined income of $48,000 gross living in Northern Virginia in 2011. I worked a job at school which paid no money but paid for 2/3 of my grad school. We know what it is like living paycheck to paycheck, saving up for months to pay for new tires, eating peanut butter sandwiches and making home made salsa for dinner 4 nights a week. I certainly sympathize with people who have to spend every they have to make ends meet. But when my wife and I were in that situation, we went out 1 time per week or less. We did not have a TV, cable, or smartphones. We enriched our lives with board game nights and lots of sex.

And by saving money and working hard, we were able to build a life for ourselves that includes a house, two cars, a growing family, health insurance and a savings account. I’m not saying it’ll work that way for everyone, but we have moved twice for jobs. I had a career change, and now my wife did as well. We have been willing to take risks, and those have worked out for us. But I could so easily wreck all that by being careless with our money like a lot of my friends.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:39 am

I guess the real point is that people that don't make a lot of money should stop buying things that aren't absolute necessities. I'm sure that will do wonders for a capitalistic economy.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:44 am

bucfanclw wrote:I guess the real point is that people that don't make a lot of money should stop buying things that aren't absolute necessities. I'm sure that will do wonders for a capitalistic economy.

Don't worry. They have cable TV!
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Deuce » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:58 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:The median disposable income by household in the US was $34.5K in 2015).


Disposable income is defined as follows: income remaining after deduction of taxes and other mandatory charges, available to be spent or saved as one wishes.

So its income after taxes. Let's see how much money we have for all this luxury after the bare essentials.

Rent- $16,860
electric- $1340.04 Floridians should be rioting over this. I pay almost 3 times that.
water- $1,248
Food- $7,729

Leaving the average household with a whopping $7,322.96 (or $610.25 per month) to cover health insurance, cars, insurance, gas, trash, and we haven't even subscribed to Netflix yet.

MEAN discretionary income (Income after essentials like food and shelter) is $1,729 per month. Which means you six figure earners skew the number upwards.

Happy Thanksgiving.


Yeah because that rent number isn't skewed at all.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby PetePierson » Tue Nov 19, 2019 10:59 am

bucfanclw wrote:I guess the real point is that people that don't make a lot of money should stop buying things that aren't absolute necessities. I'm sure that will do wonders for a capitalistic economy.


You have me at a loss (which is not difficult to do) but are you implying that everyone should have the same amount of everything?
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby PanteraCanes » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:02 am

bucfanclw wrote:I guess the real point is that people that don't make a lot of money should stop buying things that aren't absolute necessities. I'm sure that will do wonders for a capitalistic economy.



Interesting study. Would a capitalist society be better if people lived within their means or if significant group or majority went into debt for going out of their means?

My money would be on people living within their means would make things in general better. Though credit card companies would not be as lucrative. I think those loses could probably be made up somewhere else. Maybe the average growth would be the same but just less boom and bust periods? So it would be a smoother economy.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:12 am

PetePierson wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I guess the real point is that people that don't make a lot of money should stop buying things that aren't absolute necessities. I'm sure that will do wonders for a capitalistic economy.

You have me at a loss (which is not difficult to do) but are you implying that everyone should have the same amount of everything?

Clewy is the Mike Pence of the BZ pinko coalition.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:19 am

Ken Carson wrote:
PanteraCanes wrote:My assumption would be that he used a study that already adjusted all to a common currency. Either wikipedia was his source or it referenced the same study which would seem to support this assumption of mine.

Yeah, somehow I was able to avoid the trap of the currency conversion.

Listen, I’m not here saying people don’t struggle. My wife and I had a combined income of $48,000 gross living in Northern Virginia in 2011. I worked a job at school which paid no money but paid for 2/3 of my grad school. We know what it is like living paycheck to paycheck, saving up for months to pay for new tires, eating peanut butter sandwiches and making home made salsa for dinner 4 nights a week. I certainly sympathize with people who have to spend every they have to make ends meet. But when my wife and I were in that situation, we went out 1 time per week or less. We did not have a TV, cable, or smartphones. We enriched our lives with board game nights and lots of sex.

And by saving money and working hard, we were able to build a life for ourselves that includes a house, two cars, a growing family, health insurance and a savings account. I’m not saying it’ll work that way for everyone, but we have moved twice for jobs. I had a career change, and now my wife did as well. We have been willing to take risks, and those have worked out for us. But I could so easily wreck all that by being careless with our money like a lot of my friends.


Great post Ken.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:19 am

PetePierson wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I guess the real point is that people that don't make a lot of money should stop buying things that aren't absolute necessities. I'm sure that will do wonders for a capitalistic economy.


You have me at a loss (which is not difficult to do) but are you implying that everyone should have the same amount of everything?

Not at all. I just see many right leaning people claim that the problem is people with lower incomes buying luxuries, but they don't seem to realize they are effectively advocating for taking a ton of money out of the economy. I have a hard time believing that would be a good thing given the fact that small fluctuations to the consumer confidence index has big impacts on the markets.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:21 am

bucfanclw wrote:Not at all. I just see many right leaning people claim that the problem is people with lower incomes buying luxuries,.




Who are these right leaning people advocating this? If someone has said lower income people buying luxuries is a problem can you please link to it?


I, and I’m guessing nearly everyone, wants people to buy whatever they want and can afford.


——-

The discussion today centered around how we define people struggling
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:26 am

I forgot, if I say something like that I will get sea-lioned here when I'm just trying to provoke thought. Nevermind.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:28 am

bucfanclw wrote:I forgot, if I say something like that I will get sea-lioned here when I'm just trying to provoke thought. Nevermind.



It’s a good discussion if someone said it (or as you claim “many” have said it)..show us who said it and we can talk.


I’m 100% on your side on this. The problem absolutely isn’t lower income people spending money on luxuries. And your point about taking money out of the economy is one worth exploring. But again, I simply don’t see anyone advocating that. I’m sorry if my question offended you. It was to ask for clarification. I certainly wasn’t suggesting you were “wrong” about the principles in the post. Again, I agree with them
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby PetePierson » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:29 am

bucfanclw wrote:Not at all. I just see many right leaning people claim that the problem is people with lower incomes buying luxuries, but they don't seem to realize they are effectively advocating for taking a ton of money out of the economy. I have a hard time believing that would be a good thing given the fact that small fluctuations to the consumer confidence index has big impacts on the markets.


I would imagine (as with most things) there "truth" is somewhere in the middle. Not sure how one would quantify it but to determine the percentage of people living beyond their means / not budgeting properly etc... vs those who are doing everything by the book and still can't keep head above water.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:41 am

PetePierson wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Not at all. I just see many right leaning people claim that the problem is people with lower incomes buying luxuries, but they don't seem to realize they are effectively advocating for taking a ton of money out of the economy. I have a hard time believing that would be a good thing given the fact that small fluctuations to the consumer confidence index has big impacts on the markets.


I would imagine (as with most things) there "truth" is somewhere in the middle. Not sure how one would quantify it but to determine the percentage of people living beyond their means / not budgeting properly etc... vs those who are doing everything by the book and still can't keep head above water.




I really liked MB’s links yesterday about financial health of Americans and four major components of it. It does a great job trying to dive into the concept in more detail — savings, financial literacy, budgeting, paying the necessities

It didn’t have enough data on each component to have an extended discussion, but I liked its overall framework
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:04 pm

Deuce wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Disposable income is defined as follows: income remaining after deduction of taxes and other mandatory charges, available to be spent or saved as one wishes.

So its income after taxes. Let's see how much money we have for all this luxury after the bare essentials.

Rent- $16,860
electric- $1340.04 Floridians should be rioting over this. I pay almost 3 times that.
water- $1,248
Food- $7,729

Leaving the average household with a whopping $7,322.96 (or $610.25 per month) to cover health insurance, cars, insurance, gas, trash, and we haven't even subscribed to Netflix yet.

MEAN discretionary income (Income after essentials like food and shelter) is $1,729 per month. Which means you six figure earners skew the number upwards.

Happy Thanksgiving.


Yeah because that rent number isn't skewed at all.

If you want to rent a 3/2 house in Crestview, FL, that's right in the ballpark.

BTW, if you add all that up plus the $1,729 in discretionary income it comes to $47,916. Median Household income for 2018 is $63,179 leaving $1,271 a month for Cars, car insurance, health insurance, student loan debt, and an internet connection.
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:10 pm

That seems like a reasonable rent to me for a family ... I’m sure it’s too low in large cities and too high in rural America but for most families it’s probably in the ballpark
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Re: US ECONOMY News and Discussion Thread

Postby PetePierson » Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:17 pm

When I first moved to Charlotte, I rented a 2B / 2B apartment (wasn't ready to buy as wasn't sure I would stay / didn't know the area) in a middle of the road complex.

Rent was ~$1,1k / month. So the rent MB quoted seems reasonable to me as well.
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