FISA abuse memo released

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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby SDBucs » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:23 pm

Carter Page, the center of all this, worked for Bill Clinton.

Does this mean the Clinton's need a special council or?

Oh, he worked for the FBI too you say?

Hm.

I bet it was totally organic that he ended up with Trump and immediately led to FISA warrants and subsequent Trump surveillance.

Totally organic

Right?

Totally coincidental
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:03 pm

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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Rocker » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:24 am

I was wondering how long it would take for that comic to show in this thread.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:18 am

Pirate Life wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
Really? When did the Obama executive branch begin to show any interest in Russia? Remember we were doing resets, getting caught on hot mikes saying how flexible we were going to be for Vladimir, and telling the country that anyone who feared Russia that the 80’s called and they needed their foreign policy back.

We went from that, to Russia is the greatest threat in world history in a snap. Why? Was Obama complaining of any meddling during the election, while Hillary was a shoe-in to win? They were meddling at the time were they not?

No, I think your wrong. It was only after Hillary lost, despite the best efforts of various government institutions under the executive branch to aid her campaign, that this whole escapade began. There would be no investigation if Clinton won so no, Russia messing around was never the catalyst, it was political from the get-go.


Your thinking would be mistaken. The administration, DoJ and intelligence sources were looking at Russian interference before Trump was confirmed as the Republican nominee. In the summer of 2015 the FBI warned the DNC that they had been hacked by the Russians. In June 2016, FBI sent warnings to State electorate boards warning about Russian attempts to hack into their voting systems. Obama personally warned Putin on two occasions before the election to stop interfering in the election (September 2016 at the G20 summit and Oct 31st via the 'red phone'). The administration also met with representatives in Congress about going public with the information during the election, specifically the leadership of the House and Senate to let them know about it and get their opinions on releasing the info in a way to make it not see partisan or political - McConnell wanted no part of any bipartisan release of that information so the White House decided not to release the info so as not to be seen as trying to influence the election.


You really take everything Obama says at face value. I predict we will find that Obama was behind most of these shenanigans. The man thought he had free reign to do whatever he wanted to do. Trump had no shot of winning remember, and Loretta Lynch was supposed to be in place right now to sweep everything under the rug.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:49 am

Rocker wrote:I was wondering how long it would take for that comic to show in this thread.

The only thing it's missing is the MAGA guy completely re-working his conspiracy theory every time new information comes out, while Trump... is lying still fits.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:40 am

bruh if you deny the existence of the deep state I don't know what to tell you...
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Pirate Life » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:11 am

Brazen331 wrote:
Pirate Life wrote:
Your thinking would be mistaken. The administration, DoJ and intelligence sources were looking at Russian interference before Trump was confirmed as the Republican nominee. In the summer of 2015 the FBI warned the DNC that they had been hacked by the Russians. In June 2016, FBI sent warnings to State electorate boards warning about Russian attempts to hack into their voting systems. Obama personally warned Putin on two occasions before the election to stop interfering in the election (September 2016 at the G20 summit and Oct 31st via the 'red phone'). The administration also met with representatives in Congress about going public with the information during the election, specifically the leadership of the House and Senate to let them know about it and get their opinions on releasing the info in a way to make it not see partisan or political - McConnell wanted no part of any bipartisan release of that information so the White House decided not to release the info so as not to be seen as trying to influence the election.


You really take everything Obama says at face value. I predict we will find that Obama was behind most of these shenanigans. The man thought he had free reign to do whatever he wanted to do. Trump had no shot of winning remember, and Loretta Lynch was supposed to be in place right now to sweep everything under the rug.


Nope, I don't take anything at face value from any politician, no one should. I do my research, all of this information is out there from multiple sources.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Pirate Life » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:13 am

SDBucs wrote:Carter Page, the center of all this, worked for Bill Clinton.

Does this mean the Clinton's need a special council or?

Oh, he worked for the FBI too you say?

Hm.

I bet it was totally organic that he ended up with Trump and immediately led to FISA warrants and subsequent Trump surveillance.

Totally organic

Right?

Totally coincidental


Oh, you mean the Carter Page who was under investigation for possibly being a Russian agent starting in 2013? Damn, so who is the one with the crystal ball that can tell the future? Obama? The FBI? NSA?
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:00 pm

Pirate Life wrote:
SDBucs wrote:Carter Page, the center of all this, worked for Bill Clinton.

Does this mean the Clinton's need a special council or?

Oh, he worked for the FBI too you say?

Hm.

I bet it was totally organic that he ended up with Trump and immediately led to FISA warrants and subsequent Trump surveillance.

Totally organic

Right?

Totally coincidental


Oh, you mean the Carter Page who was under investigation for possibly being a Russian agent starting in 2013? Damn, so who is the one with the crystal ball that can tell the future? Obama? The FBI? NSA?


I don’t think this timeline strengthens your argument. It’s how the surveillance continually got renewed every 90 day’s with no new evidence that is at question here.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:03 pm

Brazen331 wrote:
Pirate Life wrote:
Oh, you mean the Carter Page who was under investigation for possibly being a Russian agent starting in 2013? Damn, so who is the one with the crystal ball that can tell the future? Obama? The FBI? NSA?


I don’t think this timeline strengthens your argument. It’s how the surveillance continually got renewed every 90 day’s with no new evidence that is at question here.

I thought it was how the surveillance got started in the first place?
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:44 pm

Brazen331 wrote:
Pirate Life wrote:
Oh, you mean the Carter Page who was under investigation for possibly being a Russian agent starting in 2013? Damn, so who is the one with the crystal ball that can tell the future? Obama? The FBI? NSA?


I don’t think this timeline strengthens your argument. It’s how the surveillance continually got renewed every 90 day’s with no new evidence that is at question here.

Let's say a child born in the US to Iraqi parents (Now an adult) made contact with a known terrorist which legitimately led to a FISA warrant for surveillance. If after 90 days there was no new information, would you be ok just dropping surveillance on him? Serious question.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Pirate Life » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:45 pm

Brazen331 wrote:
Pirate Life wrote:
Oh, you mean the Carter Page who was under investigation for possibly being a Russian agent starting in 2013? Damn, so who is the one with the crystal ball that can tell the future? Obama? The FBI? NSA?


I don’t think this timeline strengthens your argument. It’s how the surveillance continually got renewed every 90 day’s with no new evidence that is at question here.


If this is true (which still has not been proven, the memo has no evidence of this even though it implies it), then sure it's a big thing. However, considering who the FISA court judges are and they are the ones that approve renewals I'm going to go with the idea that the warrants were renewed with new evidence properly which makes the memo even more 'meh'.

Here's the list of FISA court judges: http://www.fisc.uscourts.gov/current-membership

It's jam packed with republican-appointed judges (Reagan and both Bushes) and all are appointed to FISA by the Chief Justice, John Roberts. There's three appointed by democrats, two from Clinton and one from Obama. They are randomly assigned the warrant cases. Odds are the warrants were not all going through the Clinton/Obama federal judges. Oh, and as previously mentioned, a couple of the republican ones aren't exactly known for siding with either Clinton or Obama.

So, what you are saying is we have this vast conspiracy that managed to ensare the Chief Justice and about ten republican judges to go after a republican candidate/president elect with some of those warrants done after the election (and I believe after his inauguration?). Obama's phone and pen are mighty indeed I s'pose, but I'll stick with Occam's Razor here, simplest explanation is the warrants were approved based upon the proper procedures and Nunes is grandstanding like he's done in the past and is currently doing with his new investigations (that are not following the proper law in regards to the intel committee).
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:15 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
I don’t think this timeline strengthens your argument. It’s how the surveillance continually got renewed every 90 day’s with no new evidence that is at question here.

I thought it was how the surveillance got started in the first place?


Your Congressman is calling for Adam Schiff to step down.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:48 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
I don’t think this timeline strengthens your argument. It’s how the surveillance continually got renewed every 90 day’s with no new evidence that is at question here.

Let's say a child born in the US to Iraqi parents (Now an adult) made contact with a known terrorist which legitimately led to a FISA warrant for surveillance. If after 90 days there was no new information, would you be ok just dropping surveillance on him? Serious question.


Serious answer: Once you find out the initial reason for starting surveillance was bogus, that’s when you need new information to continue and not just blindly sign off time after time because you are seeking to sabotage a candidate you don’t like.

But haven’t you guys pretty much moved on from Page and pinning all your hopes on Papadoupalis now?
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby bucfanclw » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:06 am

Brazen331 wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Let's say a child born in the US to Iraqi parents (Now an adult) made contact with a known terrorist which legitimately led to a FISA warrant for surveillance. If after 90 days there was no new information, would you be ok just dropping surveillance on him? Serious question.


Serious answer: Once you find out the initial reason for starting surveillance was bogus, that’s when you need new information to continue and not just blindly sign off time after time because you are seeking to sabotage a candidate you don’t like.

But haven’t you guys pretty much moved on from Page and pinning all your hopes on Papadoupalis now?

So a guy that's possibly being groomed to carry out an attack should just be taken off the radar because there's no new evidence in a 90 day time frame. I'll remember that next time you're complaining how we didn't catch a terrorist ahead of time.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:58 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
Serious answer: Once you find out the initial reason for starting surveillance was bogus, that’s when you need new information to continue and not just blindly sign off time after time because you are seeking to sabotage a candidate you don’t like.

But haven’t you guys pretty much moved on from Page and pinning all your hopes on Papadoupalis now?

So a guy that's possibly being groomed to carry out an attack should just be taken off the radar because there's no new evidence in a 90 day time frame. I'll remember that next time you're complaining how we didn't catch a terrorist ahead of time.


I wasn’t stating my opinion, I thought that was what the law stated: that you needed to continually justify a FISA warrant every 90 days, that the standards were stringent, meaning you couldn’t go on a decade long fishing expedition, you needed to show evidence of wrong doing to continue the surveillance. If I’m wrong by all means correct me.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:07 am

Brazen331 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I thought it was how the surveillance got started in the first place?


Your Congressman is calling for Adam Schiff to step down.

My Congressman is a moron.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby bucfanclw » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:19 am

Brazen331 wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:So a guy that's possibly being groomed to carry out an attack should just be taken off the radar because there's no new evidence in a 90 day time frame. I'll remember that next time you're complaining how we didn't catch a terrorist ahead of time.


I wasn’t stating my opinion, I thought that was what the law stated: that you needed to continually justify a FISA warrant every 90 days, that the standards were stringent, meaning you couldn’t go on a decade long fishing expedition, you needed to show evidence of wrong doing to continue the surveillance. If I’m wrong by all means correct me.

That is the law. But you're acting under the assumption that no evidence was presented on Page based on a memo written by a guy that admitted he never even read the damn applications or intelligence. That is why I presented you with that scenario. With just the information given in the scenario, would you feel comfortable letting that guy walk?
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:18 am

I think Carter Page is a patsy that is being propped up in this Trump-Russia plot. I'll predict he never gets convicted with any crime related to this 'Russian election interference' despite being under surveillance by our own intelligence orgs.

If I were a Democratic operative Page would fit the profile of a guy to stage as a patsy. If I were part of the Trump campaign (or Trump himself) why would I use a guy that was already on the FISA watch list/radar as a conduit w/ Russia/Kremlin/Putin to collude on the election?

Maybe I'll eat crow on this post. We'll see...

As far as the FISA memo from last Friday, I never thought it was bombshell it was hyped to be, nor that it was nothing. The HIC's job is to provide oversight and there are certainly things mentioned in that memo that suggest we should take a look at the process that played out here. People are playing team politics and the issue is being intentionally convoluted. I'm old enough to remember when "liberals" were the champions of civil liberties and transparency. So it's odd to see Democrats initially attempt to block the memo, then hype it as something that would deteriorate our intel community in some catastrophic way, then once it's released to dismiss it completely.

I don't believe the memo in any way should dismiss the need to investigate Russian interference. But getting to the bottom of the how the dossier was used to influence the FBI and others in government is important to understand imo given the nature of it's orgin.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Buc2 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:21 pm

DreadNaught wrote:I think Carter Page is a patsy that is being propped up in this Trump-Russia plot. I'll predict he never gets convicted with any crime related to this 'Russian election interference' despite being under surveillance by our own intelligence orgs.

If I were a Democratic operative Page would fit the profile of a guy to stage as a patsy. If I were part of the Trump campaign (or Trump himself) why would I use a guy that was already on the FISA watch list/radar as a conduit w/ Russia/Kremlin/Putin to collude on the election?

Maybe I'll eat crow on this post. We'll see...

As far as the FISA memo from last Friday, I never thought it was bombshell it was hyped to be, nor that it was nothing. The HIC's job is to provide oversight and there are certainly things mentioned in that memo that suggest we should take a look at the process that played out here. People are playing team politics and the issue is being intentionally convoluted. I'm old enough to remember when "liberals" were the champions of civil liberties and transparency. So it's odd to see Democrats initially attempt to block the memo, then hype it as something that would deteriorate our intel community in some catastrophic way, then once it's released to dismiss it completely.

I don't believe the memo in any way should dismiss the need to investigate Russian interference. But getting to the bottom of the how the dossier was used to influence the FBI and others in government is important to understand imo given the nature of it's orgin.

pfft! The whole Russian election interference crap was escalated because the Left's queen lost the election. Had Queen Hillary won, this would have died a quiet death as Comey & Lynch worked behind the scenes to bury it all. At this point, it is nothing more than a pretense perpetuated by the Left as a way for them to, somehow, gain back some of what they lost in the upcoming mid-terms. Throw in a little Benghazi payback and Rinos complicate in the fact they trumped up the whole, #nevertrump bullshit, and here we are today. The whole thing has become yet another government boondoggle for which our government is so good at creating.

BENGHAZI! BENGHAZI! BENGHAZI! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! RUSSIA! #NEVERTRUMP! #NEVERTRUMP! #NEVERTRUMP!

Yay, us.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:58 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
I wasn’t stating my opinion, I thought that was what the law stated: that you needed to continually justify a FISA warrant every 90 days, that the standards were stringent, meaning you couldn’t go on a decade long fishing expedition, you needed to show evidence of wrong doing to continue the surveillance. If I’m wrong by all means correct me.

That is the law. But you're acting under the assumption that no evidence was presented on Page based on a memo written by a guy that admitted he never even read the damn applications or intelligence. That is why I presented you with that scenario. With just the information given in the scenario, would you feel comfortable letting that guy walk?


Your scenario doesn’t exactly correlate. Maybe if we were afraid Carter Page might set off a bomb in a subway it would work. I don’t think you should stop surveillance on terrorists.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Pirate Life » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:04 pm

If you really want to make a case for shenanigans with the FISA courts, forget about the Nunes memo and look at the Grassley one. Better sourced and makes a better case without trying to imply the dossier was the only source of info for the warrant application. It has a lot of circumstantial evidence and leaps to connect dots that may not be actually connected, but it's heaps better than what Nunes put out.

In the end, without seeing the FISA warrant submission, we will likely never know the truth and I doubt we will see that document or find out which FISA judges reviewed the submissions.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 6:11 pm

Pirate Life wrote:If you really want to make a case for shenanigans with the FISA courts, forget about the Nunes memo and look at the Grassley one. Better sourced and makes a better case without trying to imply the dossier was the only source of info for the warrant application. It has a lot of circumstantial evidence and leaps to connect dots that may not be actually connected, but it's heaps better than what Nunes put out.

In the end, without seeing the FISA warrant submission, we will likely never know the truth and I doubt we will see that document or find out which FISA judges reviewed the submissions.


How do you think Trump should handle the Democrat memo if reports are true that they purposely included classified material so there would have to be lots of redactions compared to the clean Republican one to make it look like a coverup?Don’t redact, release with redactions, don’t release? Interesting political maneuvering here.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:35 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
Your Congressman is calling for Adam Schiff to step down.

My Congressman is a moron.


Yeah, I don’t think Schiff should step down for getting punked by the Russian version of Howard Stern either. I think Adam just legitimately desired to see pictures of ‘naked Trump,’ probably wanted to share them with Lindsay Graham, too.

But it does make Adam look like an idiot and hypocrite, does it not? Isn’t this exactly what he is accusing Trump Jr. of doing, conspiring with Russuans to obtain political dirt? If baby Trump was committing treason, what was Schiff doing?
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:23 am

Brazen331 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:My Congressman is a moron.


Yeah, I don’t think Schiff should step down for getting punked by the Russian version of Howard Stern either. I think Adam just legitimately desired to see pictures of ‘naked Trump,’ probably wanted to share them with Lindsay Graham, too.

But it does make Adam look like an idiot and hypocrite, does it not? Isn’t this exactly what he is accusing Trump Jr. of doing, conspiring with Russuans to obtain political dirt? If baby Trump was committing treason, what was Schiff doing?

The difference is Schiff reported the call to the authorities. Jr responded to the first contact by setting up a secret meeting in Trump Tower with no lawyers present, but I'm sure you have no problem with that.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Pirate Life » Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:51 pm

Brazen331 wrote:
Pirate Life wrote:If you really want to make a case for shenanigans with the FISA courts, forget about the Nunes memo and look at the Grassley one. Better sourced and makes a better case without trying to imply the dossier was the only source of info for the warrant application. It has a lot of circumstantial evidence and leaps to connect dots that may not be actually connected, but it's heaps better than what Nunes put out.

In the end, without seeing the FISA warrant submission, we will likely never know the truth and I doubt we will see that document or find out which FISA judges reviewed the submissions.


How do you think Trump should handle the Democrat memo if reports are true that they purposely included classified material so there would have to be lots of redactions compared to the clean Republican one to make it look like a coverup?Don’t redact, release with redactions, don’t release? Interesting political maneuvering here.


Honestly, from everything I can infer and guess at, it sounds like there really isn't anything in the Carter Page stuff that would endanger national security by revealing (it's not like he holds nuclear codes or anything like that) and short of revealing names of sources that should be confidential, just declassify the whole thing and let people read it. Between Snowden and others, pretty sure the methods aren't really going to be shocking reveals to anyone.

The Grassley memo is lightly redacted, though there were a few curious spots with redacted parts. Something along those lines would be nice, but again I think we really won't know much without seeing the actual FISA requests and perhaps know who the judges were (and any questions/clarifications they may have wanted about anything related to the warrant requests). Barring that, the two memos are really just political theater to get the bases riled up and score points IMO. Opinion subject to change as other information comes out.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:18 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
Yeah, I don’t think Schiff should step down for getting punked by the Russian version of Howard Stern either. I think Adam just legitimately desired to see pictures of ‘naked Trump,’ probably wanted to share them with Lindsay Graham, too.

But it does make Adam look like an idiot and hypocrite, does it not? Isn’t this exactly what he is accusing Trump Jr. of doing, conspiring with Russuans to obtain political dirt? If baby Trump was committing treason, what was Schiff doing?

The difference is Schiff reported the call to the authorities. Jr responded to the first contact by setting up a secret meeting in Trump Tower with no lawyers present, but I'm sure you have no problem with that.


Please. Schiff was dispatching aides and carrying on multiple text conversations with the pranksters begging for the dirt. I’m sure, in his position, he knows how to CYA more than Trump Jr. Nice hair-split try here but your boy is a hypocrite, like Warner. Funny how the Dems seem to be involved more with this Russia/collusion shiny object thing.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Brazen331 » Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:22 pm

Pirate Life wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
How do you think Trump should handle the Democrat memo if reports are true that they purposely included classified material so there would have to be lots of redactions compared to the clean Republican one to make it look like a coverup?Don’t redact, release with redactions, don’t release? Interesting political maneuvering here.


Honestly, from everything I can infer and guess at, it sounds like there really isn't anything in the Carter Page stuff that would endanger national security by revealing (it's not like he holds nuclear codes or anything like that) and short of revealing names of sources that should be confidential, just declassify the whole thing and let people read it. Between Snowden and others, pretty sure the methods aren't really going to be shocking reveals to anyone.

The Grassley memo is lightly redacted, though there were a few curious spots with redacted parts. Something along those lines would be nice, but again I think we really won't know much without seeing the actual FISA requests and perhaps know who the judges were (and any questions/clarifications they may have wanted about anything related to the warrant requests). Barring that, the two memos are really just political theater to get the bases riled up and score points IMO. Opinion subject to change as other information comes out.


I agree. Release the whole thing. Funny how the FBI doesn’t seem to be crying about how the Democrat memo will endanger national security. If it’s favorable to them, no security threat, unfavorable, threat, so political.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:42 pm

Poor Brazen. Nobody believes him.
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Re: FISA abuse memo released

Postby RedLeader » Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:02 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Rocker wrote:I was wondering how long it would take for that comic to show in this thread.

The only thing it's missing is the MAGA guy completely re-working his conspiracy theory every time new information comes out, while Trump... is lying still fits.


Yup. That’s all that’s going on here.... Trump lying..

derp.
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