Immigration question for the Progressives

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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 12:47 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:There is no winning answer or solution to this issue. Regardless of what is done, team R or D will spin it in the way that they can fragment voters and draw ire towards said policy. It's never going to be something that the masses agree on. If we simply turn people away, there will be outcry for sending those people back to the hardships they came from etc. If we let people in...."They took'r jurbs" and whatnot. We can't open the border and we can't completely close it...I don't have a solution.

I think as a dying breed of message board community, we can possibly contrive an idea that comes in the vicinity of agreement...unlike some other topics, but overall it's a fruitless endeavor much like political topic "x". Things have become so polarized with the news and social media that out of extremism we get someone like Trump as President who represents less individual ideologies than ever before.

Maybe it's just one of those days full of pessimism.


Nobody is suggesting we "completely close the border", atleast nobody reasonable.

The main issue is border security and crafting immigration legislation/laws that can be enforced that don't benefit those that attempt to cross the border illegally (NOT at a port of entry). I know it's unpopular, but this is where a wall makes some sense.

Once you have border security we can address the undocumented folks already here via an amnesty program. But if we can't address border security then amnesty is a non starter since it would just open the floodgates.

Since Dems want amnesty, and Trump wants his wall and border security, why can't here be some middle ground there? We can even call it 'Comprehensive immigration reform' so it aligns with the Democratic party platform.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:00 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:There is no winning answer or solution to this issue. Regardless of what is done, team R or D will spin it in the way that they can fragment voters and draw ire towards said policy. It's never going to be something that the masses agree on. If we simply turn people away, there will be outcry for sending those people back to the hardships they came from etc. If we let people in...."They took'r jurbs" and whatnot. We can't open the border and we can't completely close it...I don't have a solution.

I think as a dying breed of message board community, we can possibly contrive an idea that comes in the vicinity of agreement...unlike some other topics, but overall it's a fruitless endeavor much like political topic "x". Things have become so polarized with the news and social media that out of extremism we get someone like Trump as President who represents less individual ideologies than ever before.

Maybe it's just one of those days full of pessimism.


Nobody is suggesting we "completely close the border", atleast nobody reasonable.

The main issue is border security and crafting immigration legislation/laws that can be enforced that don't benefit those that attempt to cross the border illegally (NOT at a port of entry). I know it's unpopular, but this is where a wall makes some sense.

Once you have border security we can address the undocumented folks already here via an amnesty program. But if we can't address border security then amnesty is a non starter since it would just open the floodgates.

Since Dems want amnesty, and Trump wants his wall and border security, why can't here be some middle ground there? We can even call it 'Comprehensive immigration reform' so it aligns with the Democratic party platform.



the thing is a Wall will not work... complete waste of money..... El Chapo guys can build an underground tunnel anywhere a half mile long with lighting and stairs and tracks for vehicle.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:04 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Nobody is suggesting we "completely close the border", atleast nobody reasonable.

The main issue is border security and crafting immigration legislation/laws that can be enforced that don't benefit those that attempt to cross the border illegally (NOT at a port of entry). I know it's unpopular, but this is where a wall makes some sense.

Once you have border security we can address the undocumented folks already here via an amnesty program. But if we can't address border security then amnesty is a non starter since it would just open the floodgates.

Since Dems want amnesty, and Trump wants his wall and border security, why can't here be some middle ground there? We can even call it 'Comprehensive immigration reform' so it aligns with the Democratic party platform.



the thing is a Wall will not work... complete waste of money..... El Chapo guys can build an underground tunnel anywhere a half mile long with lighting and stairs and tracks for vehicle.


Not that I'm advocating for the wall (I'm not), but this is a dumb argument. A vast majority of people do not use those tunnels. We will never be able to stop that sort of determined efforts. Plus it goes against your solution as well.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:15 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Nobody is suggesting we "completely close the border", atleast nobody reasonable.

The main issue is border security and crafting immigration legislation/laws that can be enforced that don't benefit those that attempt to cross the border illegally (NOT at a port of entry). I know it's unpopular, but this is where a wall makes some sense.

Once you have border security we can address the undocumented folks already here via an amnesty program. But if we can't address border security then amnesty is a non starter since it would just open the floodgates.

Since Dems want amnesty, and Trump wants his wall and border security, why can't here be some middle ground there? We can even call it 'Comprehensive immigration reform' so it aligns with the Democratic party platform.



the thing is a Wall will not work... complete waste of money..... El Chapo guys can build an underground tunnel anywhere a half mile long with lighting and stairs and tracks for vehicle.


The cost/benefit is certainly debatable. But not everyone uses tunnels (which we can still easily detect and destroy) and I think you're underestimating the number of people caught crossing the border. A wall would force them to a port of entry, which is the way that should be encouraged.

If we didn't guarantee undocumented immigrants due process once they reach American soil, I 100% agree that Wall is a ridiculous idea. But that due process costs taxpayers money, whereas if they were funneled to a port of entry they could be processed legally and efficiently while the criminals would be deterred altogether since they'd be turned around. This is the humane way to do it imo since the concern should be for the actual immigrant families and asylum seekers and not for the human smugglers, mules, and other criminals trying to re-enter illegally after being deported.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:17 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:

the thing is a Wall will not work... complete waste of money..... El Chapo guys can build an underground tunnel anywhere a half mile long with lighting and stairs and tracks for vehicle.


The cost/benefit is certainly debatable. But not everyone uses tunnels (which we can still easily detect and destroy) and I think you're underestimating the number of people caught crossing the border. A wall would force them to a port of entry, which is the way that should be encouraged.

If we didn't guarantee undocumented immigrants due process once they reach American soil, I 100% agree that Wall is a ridiculous idea. But that due process costs taxpayers money, whereas if they were funneled to a port of entry they could be processed legally and efficiently while the criminals would be deterred altogether since they'd be turned around. This is the humane way to do it imo since the concern should be for the actual immigrant families and asylum seekers and not for the human smugglers, mules, and other criminals trying to re-enter illegally after being deported.

How do you encourage the port of entry?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:17 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:

the thing is a Wall will not work... complete waste of money..... El Chapo guys can build an underground tunnel anywhere a half mile long with lighting and stairs and tracks for vehicle.


Not that I'm advocating for the wall (I'm not), but this is a dumb argument. A vast majority of people do not use those tunnels. We will never be able to stop that sort of determined efforts. Plus it goes against your solution as well.


huh ? I have always been against the wall. A wall is stupid. I have 20 mexicans on my jobsite right now that think that wall is a joke... and they are correct.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:18 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
The cost/benefit is certainly debatable. But not everyone uses tunnels (which we can still easily detect and destroy) and I think you're underestimating the number of people caught crossing the border. A wall would force them to a port of entry, which is the way that should be encouraged.

If we didn't guarantee undocumented immigrants due process once they reach American soil, I 100% agree that Wall is a ridiculous idea. But that due process costs taxpayers money, whereas if they were funneled to a port of entry they could be processed legally and efficiently while the criminals would be deterred altogether since they'd be turned around. This is the humane way to do it imo since the concern should be for the actual immigrant families and asylum seekers and not for the human smugglers, mules, and other criminals trying to re-enter illegally after being deported.

How do you encourage the port of entry?


By having a defined one and creating barriers to other areas?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:20 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Not that I'm advocating for the wall (I'm not), but this is a dumb argument. A vast majority of people do not use those tunnels. We will never be able to stop that sort of determined efforts. Plus it goes against your solution as well.


huh ? I have always been against the wall. A wall is stupid. I have 20 mexicans on my jobsite right now that think that wall is a joke... and they are correct.

I said your argument against the wall is dumb. You are using an extreme case in your argument. It also goes against your idea to spend billions in processing centers...because people are tunneling/going to go around them
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Deuce » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:28 pm

Hasn't it been proven/stated that more illegals are here from entering legally and staying too long than from illegally crossing the border?

That's why a wall is stupid.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:33 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
The cost/benefit is certainly debatable. But not everyone uses tunnels (which we can still easily detect and destroy) and I think you're underestimating the number of people caught crossing the border. A wall would force them to a port of entry, which is the way that should be encouraged.

If we didn't guarantee undocumented immigrants due process once they reach American soil, I 100% agree that Wall is a ridiculous idea. But that due process costs taxpayers money, whereas if they were funneled to a port of entry they could be processed legally and efficiently while the criminals would be deterred altogether since they'd be turned around. This is the humane way to do it imo since the concern should be for the actual immigrant families and asylum seekers and not for the human smugglers, mules, and other criminals trying to re-enter illegally after being deported.

How do you encourage the port of entry?


Because if these undocumented immigrants are really families seeking asylum, which are the ones we're concerned about than a wall would be a deterrent and it would funnel them to an appropriate port of entry for legal processing.

Obviously the criminals (mainly those that have been deported previously, or have a criminal record in their home country) won't/don't use the port of entry b/c they will turned around. So if they want to try and scale the wall, or dig a tunnel so be it. It's still much more of deterrent that what we have now and would reduce illegal border crossings.

We can deal with tunnels via technology. It's just about getting it into the hands of DHS agents. The stuff our military used in Afghanistan is pretty sophisticated at detecting bunkers, caves, tunnels, or any other underground dwelling.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:39 pm

Deuce wrote:Hasn't it been proven/stated that more illegals are here from entering legally and staying too long than from illegally crossing the border?

That's why a wall is stupid.


Again, you're underestimating the amount of people that cross the boarder illegally. Just because it isn't the #1 factor doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed.

Controlling immigration starts w/ border security. Once you have that we can address amnesty for those here that are working, paying taxes, and not committing any violent crimes. I'm a pro-amnesty guy. I'm just not an pro-illegal immigration/open borders guy.

This is an issue that has been kicked down the road for decades by our politicians.
Last edited by DreadNaught on Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:44 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Again, you're underestimating the amount of people that cross the boarder illegally. .



This board needs some security

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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:45 pm

DreadNaught wrote: I'm a pro-amnesty guy.

Leftist.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:46 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
This is an issue that has been kicked down the road for decades by our politicians.



And it will continue to be ... its far too good a talking point for politicians to actually do something about it.


We have done next to zero in this country over the years to enforce our national boundaries - either directly (by walls, more agents, etc) or indirectly (by punishing businesses who hire them, by cracking down on sanctuary cities, etc).


We will be having this same debate in 20 years....those DNC and RNC coffers need to be filled somehow!
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:46 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote: I'm a pro-amnesty guy.

Leftist.



He's dead to me.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:47 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote: I'm a pro-amnesty guy.

Leftist.

BURN!
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:48 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
This is an issue that has been kicked down the road for decades by our politicians.



And it will continue to be ... its far too good a talking point for politicians to actually do something about it.


We have done next to zero in this country over the years to enforce our national boundaries - either directly (by walls, more agents, etc) or indirectly (by punishing businesses who hire them, by cracking down on sanctuary cities, etc).


We will be having this same debate in 20 years....those DNC and RNC coffers need to be filled somehow!


That's been my major gripe, from both sides.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:00 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote: I'm a pro-amnesty guy.

Leftist.

:lol: That's it!!! You've done did it now!! Those are fighting words. Driving up to lower Alabama and will be hanging out at the local pubs to face you!!
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Jason Bourne » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:10 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
huh ? I have always been against the wall. A wall is stupid. I have 20 mexicans on my jobsite right now that think that wall is a joke... and they are correct.

I said your argument against the wall is dumb. You are using an extreme case in your argument. It also goes against your idea to spend billions in processing centers...because people are tunneling/going to go around them


My point was Instead of wasting billions on a wall , spend it elsewhere ... but I would rather not spend billions anywhere on the border of Mexico ...

I am against illegal immigration , and I don’t have an answer to stopping it .
But I do know that taking kids and baby’s out of parents arms at the border is a crime ... and building a wall is a waste of money.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:14 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I said your argument against the wall is dumb. You are using an extreme case in your argument. It also goes against your idea to spend billions in processing centers...because people are tunneling/going to go around them


My point was Instead of wasting billions on a wall , spend it elsewhere ... but I would rather not spend billions anywhere on the border of Mexico ...

I am against illegal immigration , and I don’t have an answer to stopping it .
But I do know that taking kids and baby’s out of parents arms at the border is a crime ... and building a wall is a waste of money.


It's not a crime...
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Deuce » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:18 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Deuce wrote:Hasn't it been proven/stated that more illegals are here from entering legally and staying too long than from illegally crossing the border?

That's why a wall is stupid.


Again, you're underestimating the amount of people that cross the boarder illegally. Just because it isn't the #1 factor doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed.

Controlling immigration starts w/ border security. Once you have that we can address amnesty for those here that are working, paying taxes, and not committing any violent crimes. I'm a pro-amnesty guy. I'm just not an pro-illegal immigration/open borders guy.

This is an issue that has been kicked down the road for decades by our politicians.


Why do you think I'm underestimating it? According to the data, it's about 50/50 between "came legally and overstayed" and "crossed the border illegally". The lowest estimates for a wall are like $12-25 billion and then there's maintenance. So no, I don't believe in spending that much money to half-solve a problem.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:19 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Leftist.

:lol: That's it!!! You've done did it now!! Those are fighting words. Driving up to lower Alabama and will be hanging out at the local pubs to face you!!

I'm driving down to Cape Coral for the weekend. You can fight me alongside Terry when I get there.

No balls if you don't show.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:22 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Again, you're underestimating the amount of people that cross the boarder illegally. .



This board needs some security

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Well Google does say its not a secure website.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:32 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote: :lol: That's it!!! You've done did it now!! Those are fighting words. Driving up to lower Alabama and will be hanging out at the local pubs to face you!!

I'm driving down to Cape Coral for the weekend. You can fight me alongside Terry when I get there.

No balls if you don't show.


I'll be the guy selling boiled peanuts along I-75
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:32 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:But I do know that taking kids and baby’s out of parents arms at the border is a crime...


What crime is it exactly?

And do you know if taking a kid out of their father's arm while he is robbing a bank is a crime as well? Asking for a friend...
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:42 pm

Deuce wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Again, you're underestimating the amount of people that cross the boarder illegally. Just because it isn't the #1 factor doesn't mean it shouldn't be addressed.

Controlling immigration starts w/ border security. Once you have that we can address amnesty for those here that are working, paying taxes, and not committing any violent crimes. I'm a pro-amnesty guy. I'm just not an pro-illegal immigration/open borders guy.

This is an issue that has been kicked down the road for decades by our politicians.


Why do you think I'm underestimating it? According to the data, it's about 50/50 between "came legally and overstayed" and "crossed the border illegally". The lowest estimates for a wall are like $12-25 billion and then there's maintenance. So no, I don't believe in spending that much money to half-solve a problem.


Ok, how much do we spend on detention facilities? Having enough Immigration judges? Border security agents? All of which will be receiving an uptick in their current funding to keep pace with the increased amounts of undocumented child migrants.

The money is going to be spent either way. So what is the goal here? Imo it's ensuring those that are really seeking asylum are able to safely and humanely while deterring criminals that know they wouldn't make it through a port of entry.

Imo it's either spend money on the wall which reduces the required funding for that other stuff (detentions centers, judges, agents, etc) or don't build the wall and keep increasing the funding that otherwise provides border security.

Let's remember we already have the legislation allowing a wall, which folks like Schumer, Obama, and Clinton ALL voted for and alot of physical barriers already exist. So let's just finish it, why leave up a half built barrier?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:52 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:I am against illegal immigration, and I don’t have an answer to stopping it .

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Jason Bourne wrote:But I do know that taking kids and baby’s out of parents arms at the border is a crime

Actually... :nono:
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby deltbucs » Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:03 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:Here is an idea ! instead of wasting 25-50 billion on a useless wall ( that mexico will pay for...err ... our taxes... lol )that will get tunneled under, why don't we spend that money on more immigation processing centers. Then you either deport them or legalize them..ezpz :ninja:

Not complicated why we want to spend more money on immigration detention centers. Just a couple of the first Google results....


Company that runs immigration detention centers is top donor for two Texas congressmen
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politic ... ongressmen

Private prisons back Trump and could see big payoffs with new policies
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... /98300394/
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jun 21, 2018 5:17 pm

Its funny when Delt realizes somebody benefits from something. He musta never knew it happened before.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Jonny » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:00 pm

deltbucs wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:Here is an idea ! instead of wasting 25-50 billion on a useless wall ( that mexico will pay for...err ... our taxes... lol )that will get tunneled under, why don't we spend that money on more immigation processing centers. Then you either deport them or legalize them..ezpz :ninja:

Not complicated why we want to spend more money on immigration detention centers. Just a couple of the first Google results....


Company that runs immigration detention centers is top donor for two Texas congressmen
https://www.dallasnews.com/news/politic ... ongressmen

Private prisons back Trump and could see big payoffs with new policies
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/pol ... /98300394/


This is no different from Unions donating to Democrats. Everyone is about self interest. I do not understand why every time someone discovers some form of political donation on part of a businessman, it is somehow a big deal and some form of corruption.
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