Immigration question for the Progressives

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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:26 am

Zarniwoop wrote:Lol


FWIW, getting to NYBFs point, the mayor has openly admitted she has no idea to ICEs plan ... including who they are going to target and why


Now you're being intentionally misleading.




























A woman admitting she has no idea about something? :lol:
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:28 am

Lol, indeed
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby RedLeader » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:43 pm

Clewy is right. Those bastards won’t even approach the speed limit in some areas. Everybody walking around whistling. Tipping their hat as you pass them by.

“These aren’t the droids you’re looking for, amigo.”



Move along.. Move along...
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:08 pm

RedLeader wrote:Clewy is right. Those bastards won’t even approach the speed limit in some areas. Everybody walking around whistling. Tipping their hat as you pass them by.

“These aren’t the droids you’re looking for, amigo.”



Move along.. Move along...

Statistically they commit less crimes than natural-born citizens, but you still view them as hardened criminals. Any reason you feel that way?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Buc2 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:20 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:Clewy is right. Those bastards won’t even approach the speed limit in some areas. Everybody walking around whistling. Tipping their hat as you pass them by.

“These aren’t the droids you’re looking for, amigo.”



Move along.. Move along...

Statistically they commit less crimes than natural-born citizens, but you still view them as hardened criminals. Any reason you feel that way?

Who said anything about hardened criminals? They're just criminals in the country illegally. Bye. And you're welcome to come back... legally.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:33 pm

Buc2 wrote:They're just criminals in the country illegally. Bye. And you're welcome to come back... legally.

Well that sounds like a worthwhile use of federal resources. Can't have people paying taxes and obeying the laws if they weren't born here!
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:54 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:Clewy is right. Those bastards won’t even approach the speed limit in some areas. Everybody walking around whistling. Tipping their hat as you pass them by.

“These aren’t the droids you’re looking for, amigo.”



Move along.. Move along...

Statistically they commit less crimes than natural-born citizens, but you still view them as hardened criminals. Any reason you feel that way?


Nobody called them 'hardened' criminals. The illegal immigrants that are otherwise law abiding and pay taxes are not the people that should be targeted by ICE, most reasonable people agree on that point imo. But some get caught-up in the process and that is the risk you take when you reside in a country illegally. Spare us with the housekeepers and landscapers pity party. That's not who makes of the vast majority of people that are deported. If they pay tax and are otherwise not causing a problem there is an excellent chance they will be left alone.

I don't care if illegal immigrants commit less crime on average, that is just CNN/MSNBC talking point. That's like saying unlicensed drivers commit less traffic violations so they should be left alone.

They aren't in this country legally. Are you aware of what happens if you're in another country illegally and break the law? America is about the lenient country in the world when it comes how they treat illegal immigrants. Most countries deport you if you're undocumented, others will rob you and jail you.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:36 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Statistically they commit less crimes than natural-born citizens, but you still view them as hardened criminals. Any reason you feel that way?


Nobody called them 'hardened' criminals. The illegal immigrants that are otherwise law abiding and pay taxes are not the people that should be targeted by ICE, most reasonable people agree on that point imo. But some get caught-up in the process and that is the risk you take when you reside in a country illegally. Spare us with the housekeepers and landscapers pity party. That's not who makes of the vast majority of people that are deported. If they pay tax and are otherwise not causing a problem there is an excellent chance they will be left alone.

I don't care if illegal immigrants commit less crime on average, that is just CNN/MSNBC talking point. That's like saying unlicensed drivers commit less traffic violations so they should be left alone.

They aren't in this country legally. Are you aware of what happens if you're in another country illegally and break the law? America is about the lenient country in the world when it comes how they treat illegal immigrants. Most countries deport you if you're undocumented, others will rob you and jail you.

No sir. They are not bringing their best. They are bringing drugs, they are bringing crime, they are rapists, and some we assume are good people.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:47 pm

DreadNaught wrote: If they pay tax and are otherwise not causing a problem there is an excellent chance they will be left alone.



And then... https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-amer ... ch-n841921
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:53 pm

Awwww. Poor guy.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Tue Feb 27, 2018 5:57 pm

Yeah. Except that seems to be the majority of enforcement in the northeast. Good thing there isn't something more important for ICE to do.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:03 pm

Well by definition that is ICEs job. I would rather them get cooperation from local law enforcement who could tell them when they are releasing criminals rather than focusing on guys like this guy, but we know how that’s working out


I do agree with the underlying sentiment that we have much more important things to do as a nation and we shouldn’t waste resources in any dept, ICE included
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:06 pm

NYBF wrote:Yeah. Except that seems to be the majority of enforcement in the northeast.


Do you have any data that supports the majority of those being deported have no other criminal violations?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:06 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
NYBF wrote:Yeah. Except that seems to be the majority of enforcement in the northeast.


Do you have any data that supports the majority of those being deported have no other criminal violations?


Deported? No. I haven't seen deportation numbers anywhere.

But I didn't say deportation. I said enforcement. Andnwhen they're spending months wandering neighborhoods knocking on every door, stopping trains and walking through them, asking anyone brown for papers, doing things like chasing that guy from his house, there's no way they've got enough time to follow actual leads on criminal activity involving people here illegally.

Do I have data? No. But I've been on trains that were stopped. I've got friends whom were stopped. Whose doors were knocked on. I've got friends who investigated a murder, linked it to MS-13 members, informed ICE, and they weren't interested.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby RedLeader » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:01 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
RedLeader wrote:Clewy is right. Those bastards won’t even approach the speed limit in some areas. Everybody walking around whistling. Tipping their hat as you pass them by.

“These aren’t the droids you’re looking for, amigo.”



Move along.. Move along...

Statistically they commit less crimes than natural-born citizens, but you still view them as hardened criminals. Any reason you feel that way?


My guy... That they are here 'illegally' means that 100% of them have committed a crime.

Just saying.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby RedLeader » Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:03 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Buc2 wrote:They're just criminals in the country illegally. Bye. And you're welcome to come back... legally.

Well that sounds like a worthwhile use of federal resources. Can't have people paying taxes and obeying the laws if they weren't born here!


Again... you seem to be missing the obvious here.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:29 pm

Well seems that ICE picked up about 150

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018/02 ... rning.html

Roughly half of those arrested by deportation officers have convictions for assault and battery, crimes against children, weapons charges and DUI, according to the agency.




Also, it seems ICE asked the dept of justice to assess whether the Oakland mayor broke any laws with her warning
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Commander Bubbles » Wed Feb 28, 2018 4:30 am

bucfanclw wrote:--Stop using ICE as the new Gestapo to target hard-working taxpayers due to Hispanic-sounding names and there won't be a need for sanctuary cities.


You can be so histrionic. They aren't being targeted "due to Hispanic sounding names". They are being targeted because they are here illegally, and therefore breaking the law. How is that hard to understand? My family came here legally, not sure why you think the people that are here illegally are somehow more special than my family. If coming to America is so important, why not do it legally?

Do you really believe that it is racially motivated? Why do you liberals think everything is racially motivated? Could it be that you're racist and assume everyone else is as well?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:32 am

bucfanclw wrote:--Stop using ICE as the new Gestapo to target hard-working taxpayers due to Hispanic-sounding names and there won't be a need for sanctuary cities.


Comparing ICE to the Nazi Gestapo is like comparing Trump to Hitler. It's just hysterical hyperbole in an attempt to sensationalize your POV. The obvious failure in this analogy is that the Gestapo was targeting German CITIZENS who didn't support the regime and/or were Jewish. ICE doesn't target CITIZENS or people in this country legally. Nor are they killing people, I could go on but hopefully you get the idea.

Half of my family and most of my friends have Hispanic sounding names here in Tampa (which is not a sanctuary city) and I've never heard of any of them being harassed by ICE.

You keep using this narrative that all ILLEGAL immigrants are "law abiding, hard working, tax paying people" and while that may be true for a large percentage, it can't be used as a blanket statement for any demographic. We have some common ground in that I agree that ILLEGAL immigrants that aren't otherwise breaking the law or receiving government assistance should not be targeted by ICE b/c they should be focused on ILLEGALs that committing fraud and violent crimes. But that still doesn't make them victims if they are targeted. That is the risk THEY decided to take when THEY made the decision to live an a country undocumented. America is more lenient when it comes to undocumented people than most every other industrialized country, yet you compare us w/ Nazi Germany.

American takes in on average 1 million new LEGAL immigrants every year and has been for close to 20 years. Which is more than ANY other country. Those numbers are not decreasing under the current administration. So stop with the histrionics because your narrative is not based in fact.

America is a sovereign country and thus has the right to enforce the immigration laws, just as other countries do. If I go to Denmark and decide I want to stay as an illegal immigrant I'm taking the risk of being subjected to their immigration laws if I get caught. I wouldn't be victim of the Denmark 'gestapo' would I? We all have the choice to do things the legal way, or to risk doing them illegally. Wanting to live in America does not make one a citizen and deserving of the rights afforded to citizens.

I'm all for immigration reforms that are bipartisan. But at the end of the day we have to be able to enforce the laws. What is the proposal from the left exactly when it comes to immigration? It's as if you're ok with anyone entering the country and being allowed to stay provided they don't commit any violent crime. But then, and only after the crime is committed would you justify enforcing immigration laws. Perhaps I'm off on that, I'd like to understand what the reforms would be that would satisfy the left so that they would support enforcing the immigration laws instead of just complaining and ignoring them.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:50 am

DreadNaught wrote:You keep using this narrative that all ILLEGAL immigrants are "law abiding, hard working, tax paying people" and while that may be true for a large percentage, it can't be used as a blanket statement for any demographic. We have some common ground in that I agree that ILLEGAL immigrants that aren't otherwise breaking the law or receiving government assistance should not be targeted by ICE b/c they should be focused on ILLEGALs that committing fraud and violent crimes. But that still doesn't make them victims if they are targeted. That is the risk THEY decided to take when THEY made the decision to live an a country undocumented. America is more lenient when it comes to undocumented people than most every other industrialized country, yet you compare us w/ Nazi Germany.

The problem comes from pushing an agenda that says we need to up the number of apprehensions to fill a quota. In order to get that number up, you're not going to devote the resources to getting violent offenders, you're going to go after the soft targets. If this was really about getting rid of the drug dealers, rapists, etc. then why are we taking the same approach as Waldo, FL? If this was about getting them out of the assistance programs, why did the governor of Indiana just pass a rule that DACA recipients are not allowed to get professional licences? If the concern is just about them being here illegally even though (as you even admitted) a large percentage of them are good people that contribute to society, why is there no plan in the works to develop a pathway to citizenship for them?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:15 am

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:--Stop using ICE as the new Gestapo to target hard-working taxpayers due to Hispanic-sounding names and there won't be a need for sanctuary cities.


Comparing ICE to the Nazi Gestapo is like comparing Trump to Hitler. It's just hysterical hyperbole in an attempt to sensationalize your POV. The obvious failure in this analogy is that the Gestapo was targeting German CITIZENS who didn't support the regime and/or were Jewish. ICE doesn't target CITIZENS or people in this country legally. Nor are they killing people, I could go on but hopefully you get the idea.

Half of my family and most of my friends have Hispanic sounding names here in Tampa (which is not a sanctuary city) and I've never heard of any of them being harassed by ICE.

You keep using this narrative that all ILLEGAL immigrants are "law abiding, hard working, tax paying people" and while that may be true for a large percentage, it can't be used as a blanket statement for any demographic. We have some common ground in that I agree that ILLEGAL immigrants that aren't otherwise breaking the law or receiving government assistance should not be targeted by ICE b/c they should be focused on ILLEGALs that committing fraud and violent crimes. But that still doesn't make them victims if they are targeted. That is the risk THEY decided to take when THEY made the decision to live an a country undocumented. America is more lenient when it comes to undocumented people than most every other industrialized country, yet you compare us w/ Nazi Germany.

American takes in on average 1 million new LEGAL immigrants every year and has been for close to 20 years. Which is more than ANY other country. Those numbers are not decreasing under the current administration. So stop with the histrionics because your narrative is not based in fact.

America is a sovereign country and thus has the right to enforce the immigration laws, just as other countries do. If I go to Denmark and decide I want to stay as an illegal immigrant I'm taking the risk of being subjected to their immigration laws if I get caught. I wouldn't be victim of the Denmark 'gestapo' would I? We all have the choice to do things the legal way, or to risk doing them illegally. Wanting to live in America does not make one a citizen and deserving of the rights afforded to citizens.

I'm all for immigration reforms that are bipartisan. But at the end of the day we have to be able to enforce the laws. What is the proposal from the left exactly when it comes to immigration? It's as if you're ok with anyone entering the country and being allowed to stay provided they don't commit any violent crime. But then, and only after the crime is committed would you justify enforcing immigration laws. Perhaps I'm off on that, I'd like to understand what the reforms would be that would satisfy the left so that they would support enforcing the immigration laws instead of just complaining and ignoring them.



There can be no serious discussion of changing immigration laws and policy if there is no consensus with the very basic idea that laws should be followed and enforced in the first place.

It's a complete waste of time.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:24 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Comparing ICE to the Nazi Gestapo is like comparing Trump to Hitler. It's just hysterical hyperbole in an attempt to sensationalize your POV. The obvious failure in this analogy is that the Gestapo was targeting German CITIZENS who didn't support the regime and/or were Jewish. ICE doesn't target CITIZENS or people in this country legally. Nor are they killing people, I could go on but hopefully you get the idea.

Half of my family and most of my friends have Hispanic sounding names here in Tampa (which is not a sanctuary city) and I've never heard of any of them being harassed by ICE.

You keep using this narrative that all ILLEGAL immigrants are "law abiding, hard working, tax paying people" and while that may be true for a large percentage, it can't be used as a blanket statement for any demographic. We have some common ground in that I agree that ILLEGAL immigrants that aren't otherwise breaking the law or receiving government assistance should not be targeted by ICE b/c they should be focused on ILLEGALs that committing fraud and violent crimes. But that still doesn't make them victims if they are targeted. That is the risk THEY decided to take when THEY made the decision to live an a country undocumented. America is more lenient when it comes to undocumented people than most every other industrialized country, yet you compare us w/ Nazi Germany.

American takes in on average 1 million new LEGAL immigrants every year and has been for close to 20 years. Which is more than ANY other country. Those numbers are not decreasing under the current administration. So stop with the histrionics because your narrative is not based in fact.

America is a sovereign country and thus has the right to enforce the immigration laws, just as other countries do. If I go to Denmark and decide I want to stay as an illegal immigrant I'm taking the risk of being subjected to their immigration laws if I get caught. I wouldn't be victim of the Denmark 'gestapo' would I? We all have the choice to do things the legal way, or to risk doing them illegally. Wanting to live in America does not make one a citizen and deserving of the rights afforded to citizens.

I'm all for immigration reforms that are bipartisan. But at the end of the day we have to be able to enforce the laws. What is the proposal from the left exactly when it comes to immigration? It's as if you're ok with anyone entering the country and being allowed to stay provided they don't commit any violent crime. But then, and only after the crime is committed would you justify enforcing immigration laws. Perhaps I'm off on that, I'd like to understand what the reforms would be that would satisfy the left so that they would support enforcing the immigration laws instead of just complaining and ignoring them.



There can be no serious discussion of changing immigration laws and policy if there is no consensus with the very basic idea that laws should be followed and enforced in the first place.

It's a complete waste of time.


Agreed.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:40 am

Zarniwoop wrote:There can be no serious discussion of changing immigration laws and policy if there is no consensus with the very basic idea that laws should be followed and enforced in the first place.

It's a complete waste of time.

And laws are ALWAYS addressing a problem correctly and therefore never cause more problems than they solve. Just ask the 18th amendment.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:08 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

There can be no serious discussion of changing immigration laws and policy if there is no consensus with the very basic idea that laws should be followed and enforced in the first place.

It's a complete waste of time.


Agreed.



We do this far too often in our country. If a law is bad, we should change the law. We simply can't ignore it. Otherwise, there is no good faith bargaining.

As everyone knows....I'm for as few laws as absolutely possible. But any law we do have must be followed.


imagine if this pick and choose precedent is followed.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:25 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:We do this far too often in our country. If a law is bad, we should change the law. We simply can't ignore it.

And that is the conversation we should be having, but with the punishment being so severe (minimum 5 years banned from re-entry) what do we do in the meantime? Only closed-minded fools say a law is bad but accept that we should still use our resources to aggressively enforce said bad law.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:53 pm

"It seems wrong that we're rounding up everyone of Japanese descent to throw them in internment camps, but hey, the law is the law"
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:12 pm

bucfanclw wrote:"It seems wrong that we're rounding up everyone of Japanese descent to throw them in internment camps, but hey, the law is the law"


You just can't help yourself it seems. That has nothing to do with current immigration policies or practices.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:19 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:We do this far too often in our country. If a law is bad, we should change the law. We simply can't ignore it.

And that is the conversation we should be having, but with the punishment being so severe (minimum 5 years banned from re-entry) what do we do in the meantime? Only closed-minded fools say a law is bad but accept that we should still use our resources to aggressively enforce said bad law.


It's people like you that are calling the laws bad. But if you have a better solution lets hear it. Until then we agree that laws needs to be enforced, correct? Picking and choosing what laws are enforced is not how civil society operates. I certainly don't agree with all the laws and punishments for most marijuana related offenses, but if someone decides to break those laws I don't consider them to be victims or compare LE to Nazis for enforcing the laws they are sworn to uphold.

Supporting the enforcement of laws that you personally don't agree with does not make one a close minded fool. I honestly don't even understand the logic of that statement.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:51 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:And that is the conversation we should be having, but with the punishment being so severe (minimum 5 years banned from re-entry) what do we do in the meantime? Only closed-minded fools say a law is bad but accept that we should still use our resources to aggressively enforce said bad law.


It's people like you that are calling the laws bad. But if you have a better solution lets hear it. Until then we agree that laws needs to be enforced, correct? Picking and choosing what laws are enforced is not how civil society operates. I certainly don't agree with all the laws and punishments for most marijuana related offenses, but if someone decides to break those laws I don't consider them to be victims or compare LE to Nazis for enforcing the laws they are sworn to uphold.

Supporting the enforcement of laws that you personally don't agree with does not make one a close minded fool. I honestly don't even understand the logic of that statement.

Create a registry that gives a 6 month term of exemption for those that have no criminal record (outside of living here of course) and gainful employment. During that 6 month term review their case and provide a fast track pathway to allow them to become a US citizen (making extensions available on a case-by-case basis). Not on the registry by the cut off date? You're on your own. All I'm asking is that we create a method that they can make a legal attempt at citizenship instead of tearing them out of the life they built because they overstayed their visa.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Feb 28, 2018 2:34 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
It's people like you that are calling the laws bad. But if you have a better solution lets hear it. Until then we agree that laws needs to be enforced, correct? Picking and choosing what laws are enforced is not how civil society operates. I certainly don't agree with all the laws and punishments for most marijuana related offenses, but if someone decides to break those laws I don't consider them to be victims or compare LE to Nazis for enforcing the laws they are sworn to uphold.

Supporting the enforcement of laws that you personally don't agree with does not make one a close minded fool. I honestly don't even understand the logic of that statement.

Create a registry that gives a 6 month term of exemption for those that have no criminal record (outside of living here of course) and gainful employment. During that 6 month term review their case and provide a fast track pathway to allow them to become a US citizen (making extensions available on a case-by-case basis). Not on the registry by the cut off date? You're on your own. All I'm asking is that we create a method that they can make a legal attempt at citizenship instead of tearing them out of the life they built because they overstayed their visa.

Sounds good in theory, but I still think we’ll have a problem with people not wanting the ‘on your own’ portion of the law. I don’t agree with the way things are being handled, but at the same time, legislators kicking the can down the road because local executive branches pick and choose what to enforce is broken government.

We need each branch of government to be accountable to do their jobs. Executive branch needs to ENFORCE the law, and if the law sucks, we need the Legislature to PASS a new one under pressure from the public. All we accomplish by this cat and mouse game is a whole lot of passing the buck which lets career politicians never make a tough decision.
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