Immigration question for the Progressives

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Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:12 am

It seems that DACA is very important to most liberals. It's clearly not something that the conservatives are going to give away without getting something they believe in. And I really can't see Schumer making the same mistake and shutting down the government again.

So here's the question....which of the following conservative led immigration policies/principles would you be willing to give up to get Obama's DACA plan back?

--Build a border war
--Increase funding for border agents
--End what is commonly being called chain migration
--Move away from a random lottery to a more merit based system
--Eliminate sanctuary cities
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby deltbucs » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:39 am

Zarniwoop wrote:--Build a border war

Is Mexico paying for it?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:43 am

Zarniwoop wrote:It seems that DACA is very important to most liberals. It's clearly not something that the conservatives are going to give away without getting something they believe in. And I really can't see Schumer making the same mistake and shutting down the government again.

So here's the question....which of the following conservative led immigration policies/principles would you be willing to give up to get Obama's DACA plan back?

--Build a border war
--Increase funding for border agents
--End what is commonly being called chain migration
--Move away from a random lottery to a more merit based system
--Eliminate sanctuary cities

--A border wall* would be a massive waste of money, as most people against it have said from the beginning. (Which conservatives apparently translated into "identity politics" but I digress)
--I haven't really seen anybody arguing against increased funding for border security. Seems like a logical thing even though illegal immigration was already trending down.
--I'm not sure what the problem is with chain migration. It's kind of how this country was built. If a family migrates here legally, works hard, and pays taxes, I don't see a problem with them bringing close family members over as long as those family members face the same vetting process.
--I don't have a single problem with a merit based system vs lottery, as long as said merit standards are agreed upon by both sides to eliminate racial/ethnic bias that is not in the country's best interest.
--Stop using ICE as the new Gestapo to target hard-working taxpayers due to Hispanic-sounding names and there won't be a need for sanctuary cities.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:01 am

deltbucs wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:--Build a border war

Is Mexico paying for it?


No, why would they? Illegal immigrants are their major export and a major foundation of their economy. But wouldn’t you prefer that we pay for it rather than forcing a poorer and more disadvantaged nation to do so? It doesn’t sound very liberal and progressive to me to want to do something like that.You voted for Bernie, didn’t you? So I know you must love to spend money on infrastructure. Think of all the jobs and economic stimulus.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:05 am

Brazen331 wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Is Mexico paying for it?


No, why would they?


You know why he asked that.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:06 am

Brazen331 wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Is Mexico paying for it?


No, why would they? Illegal immigrants are their major export and a major foundation of their economy. But wouldn’t you prefer that we pay for it rather than forcing a poorer and more disadvantaged nation to do so? It doesn’t sound very liberal and progressive to me to want to do something like that.You voted for Bernie, didn’t you? So I know you must love to spend money on infrastructure. Think of all the jobs and economic stimulus.

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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:23 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:It seems that DACA is very important to most liberals. It's clearly not something that the conservatives are going to give away without getting something they believe in. And I really can't see Schumer making the same mistake and shutting down the government again.

So here's the question....which of the following conservative led immigration policies/principles would you be willing to give up to get Obama's DACA plan back?

--Build a border war
--Increase funding for border agents
--End what is commonly being called chain migration
--Move away from a random lottery to a more merit based system
--Eliminate sanctuary cities

--A border wall* would be a massive waste of money, as most people against it have said from the beginning. (Which conservatives apparently translated into "identity politics" but I digress)
--I haven't really seen anybody arguing against increased funding for border security. Seems like a logical thing even though illegal immigration was already trending down.
--I'm not sure what the problem is with chain migration. It's kind of how this country was built. If a family migrates here legally, works hard, and pays taxes, I don't see a problem with them bringing close family members over as long as those family members face the same vetting process.
--I don't have a single problem with a merit based system vs lottery, as long as said merit standards are agreed upon by both sides to eliminate racial/ethnic bias that is not in the country's best interest.
--Stop using ICE as the new Gestapo to target hard-working taxpayers due to Hispanic-sounding names and there won't be a need for sanctuary cities.


This.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:42 am

bucfanclw wrote:--I don't have a single problem with a merit based system vs lottery, as long as said merit standards are agreed upon by both sides to eliminate racial/ethnic bias that is not in the country's best interest.


:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:02 am

NYBF wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:--I don't have a single problem with a merit based system vs lottery, as long as said merit standards are agreed upon by both sides to eliminate racial/ethnic bias that is not in the country's best interest.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


If you’re laughing you must understand it, so is Clewy arguing for an affirmative-action based merit system here, something like choosing a doctor from El Salvador over one from Sweden if the credentials are the same? If that is what he wants here, I would be in favor of that.

That would be better than playing immigration lottery keno and letting whoever got lucky bring in a 100 random relatives. Just because we might have done something along these lines back when we were a struggling, dysfunctional country and had to take in whatever we could get does not mean we have to always do it.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:05 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:--A border wall* would be a massive waste of money, as most people against it have said from the beginning. (Which conservatives apparently translated into "identity politics" but I digress)
--I haven't really seen anybody arguing against increased funding for border security. Seems like a logical thing even though illegal immigration was already trending down.
--I'm not sure what the problem is with chain migration. It's kind of how this country was built. If a family migrates here legally, works hard, and pays taxes, I don't see a problem with them bringing close family members over as long as those family members face the same vetting process.
--I don't have a single problem with a merit based system vs lottery, as long as said merit standards are agreed upon by both sides to eliminate racial/ethnic bias that is not in the country's best interest.
--Stop using ICE as the new Gestapo to target hard-working taxpayers due to Hispanic-sounding names and there won't be a need for sanctuary cities.


This.

Co-signed in triplicate.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:34 am

Would the conservatives of the board care to state which reason best explains their opposition to immigration from central and south America?

They take Jobs
They become welfare recipients
They vote for Democrats
No assimilation into US culture
White Genocide
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby NYBF » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:39 am

Brazen331 wrote: letting whoever got lucky bring in a 100 random relatives.


Surely you have examples of this happening.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:54 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Would the conservatives of the board care to state which reason best explains their opposition to immigration from central and south America?

They take Jobs
They become welfare recipients
They vote for Democrats
No assimilation into US culture
White Genocide


What Conservative here has made that argument?

I'll go with none of the above. I'm not against immigration from a specific geo, providing they can be vetted as not dangerous. I just want the laws followed or changed. I don't support illegal/undocumented immigrants benefiting from ignoring US laws b/c some on the left feel it's racist to deport people residing in the country illegally.

I agree with clewys take on merit based immigration for the most part.

I just don't know when the left stopped differentiating illegals/undocumented immigrants from those immigrants that followed the law/process when entering the US.

It's pretty simple to me, if you want to live and work in a country you should follow that country's process/laws for entry/residency. If not, you risk being kicked out.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:55 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Would the conservatives of the board care to state which reason best explains their opposition to immigration from central and south America?

They take Jobs
They become welfare recipients
They vote for Democrats
No assimilation into US culture
White Genocide



I can’t speak for all of them but I can’t remember any conservative on here posting that we should bar legal immigrants from any of those countries.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:58 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Would the conservatives of the board care to state which reason best explains their opposition to immigration from central and south America?

They take Jobs
They become welfare recipients
They vote for Democrats
No assimilation into US culture
White Genocide


None of the above. I'm not against immigration from a specific geo, providing they can be vetted as not dangerous. I just want the laws followed or changed. I don't support illegal/undocumented immigrants benefiting from ignoring US laws b/c some on the left feel it's racist to deport people residing in the country illegally.

I just don't know when the left stopped differentiating illegals/undocumented immigrants from those that immigrants that followed the law/process when entering the US.

It's pretty simple to me, if you want to live and work in a country you should follow that country's process/laws for entry/residency. If not, you risk being kicked out.

This.

Well said.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:45 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
None of the above. I'm not against immigration from a specific geo, providing they can be vetted as not dangerous. I just want the laws followed or changed. I don't support illegal/undocumented immigrants benefiting from ignoring US laws b/c some on the left feel it's racist to deport people residing in the country illegally.

I just don't know when the left stopped differentiating illegals/undocumented immigrants from those that immigrants that followed the law/process when entering the US.

It's pretty simple to me, if you want to live and work in a country you should follow that country's process/laws for entry/residency. If not, you risk being kicked out.

This.

Well said.

If it's none of the above............................why build a wall?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby deltbucs » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:47 pm

Brazen331 wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Is Mexico paying for it?


No, why would they?

LOL!! Exactly
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:49 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:This.

Well said.

If it's none of the above............................why build a wall?



I think you’ll see that almost no one on this board supports one apart from a couple. I don’t. At least not the kind the administration is proposing
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:01 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:If it's none of the above............................why build a wall?



I think you’ll see that almost no one on this board supports one apart from a couple. I don’t. At least not the kind the administration is proposing

You keep saying "on this board". Why is it that I'm asked to explain/defend every dumbshit liberal college kid who thinks testicles are a social construct, but nobody has to explain/defend the "very fine people" who think and say their own brand of stupid ****?

I know you didn't vote for Trump, but the folks who did who ARE on this board suddenly don't have to explain the dumb **** their guy says and does because they don't agree with it? If they don't agree with the man, what the hell did they vote for? "She ain't Hillary"?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:54 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I think you’ll see that almost no one on this board supports one apart from a couple. I don’t. At least not the kind the administration is proposing

You keep saying "on this board". Why is it that I'm asked to explain/defend every dumbshit liberal college kid who thinks testicles are a social construct, but nobody has to explain/defend the "very fine people" who think and say their own brand of stupid ****?

I know you didn't vote for Trump, but the folks who did who ARE on this board suddenly don't have to explain the dumb **** their guy says and does because they don't agree with it? If they don't agree with the man, what the hell did they vote for? "She ain't Hillary"?


Not being Hillary is a good enough reason imo. I'm sure people will vote for who lands in the Dem ticket in 2020 just because "It aint Trump".

Since when did voting for a candidate or aligning with a party mean you aren't allowed to think for yourself and have your own views. I think it's a pretty ****ing ignorant take to say that b/c I voted for X, I therefore support every single item on their agenda, regardless of how I felt before they were a candidate. That is a collectivists mindset that the leftists use, and it's why classical liberals are feeling ostracized/abandoned by the left.

I don't expect you to defend positions you don't share.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:57 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I think you’ll see that almost no one on this board supports one apart from a couple. I don’t. At least not the kind the administration is proposing

You keep saying "on this board". Why is it that I'm asked to explain/defend every dumbshit liberal college kid who thinks testicles are a social construct, but nobody has to explain/defend the "very fine people" who think and say their own brand of stupid ****?

I know you didn't vote for Trump, but the folks who did who ARE on this board suddenly don't have to explain the dumb **** their guy says and does because they don't agree with it? If they don't agree with the man, what the hell did they vote for? "She ain't Hillary"?



I didn't ask you to defend anyone. I asked you and everyone else who is progressive what your personal views are. I expected all the progressives to have their own individual answers...that's why I constructed the first post as I did.

If it comes across as me asking a single person to speak for the entire party, the error is mine.



I thought I would get answers singling out which of those things I listed people would be willing to trade. Of course, many people will find all of them unfavorable on their own merit -- but in order to get the administration to cave on something they find unfavorable (giving Dreamers legal amnesty) the other side has to give up something too...that's what negotiation is.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:05 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:If it's none of the above............................why build a wall?



I think you’ll see that almost no one on this board supports one apart from a couple. I don’t. At least not the kind the administration is proposing


I don't oppose a wall being built. We already have a bunch of fencing w/ barbed wire up, so are we really debating the semantics between the various types of physical barriers?? Or are people opposed to physical barriers/borders as a means to mitigate illegal border crossings??

I realize people crossing the border isn't the #1 cause of illegal/undocumented immigrants in the US and that people fly here and just never leave is the biggest cause. But that is why we have ICE. That said, people, drugs, weapons do cross the boarder from Mexico. So additional physical boarders would mitigate some of that imo.

But "The Wall" wasn't the reason I voted for Trump, so it getting built isn't a dealbreaker either way for me. From a political perspective it would certainly help him if he finds a way get it funded/built.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:40 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I think you’ll see that almost no one on this board supports one apart from a couple. I don’t. At least not the kind the administration is proposing


I don't oppose a wall being built. We already have a bunch of fencing w/ barbed wire up, so are we really debating the semantics between the various types of physical barriers?? Or are people opposed to physical barriers/borders as a means to mitigate illegal border crossings??

I realize people crossing the border isn't the #1 cause of illegal/undocumented immigrants in the US and that people fly here and just never leave is the biggest cause. But that is why we have ICE. That said, people, drugs, weapons do cross the boarder from Mexico. So additional physical boarders would mitigate some of that imo.

But "The Wall" wasn't the reason I voted for Trump, so it getting built isn't a dealbreaker either way for me. From a political perspective it would certainly help him if he finds a way get it funded/built.

Since you brought it up, why did you vote for him?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:16 pm

Actually you brought it up in your previous post in this thread which is why I responded to it the way I did. I suppose I could've quoted you to make it clear.

I'm sure you could find a more detailed answer using the search feature since we've been through this. But the biggest reason was he wasn't Hillary. My disdain for Hillary wasn't so much her platform. It was what she represented. I voted for Trump b/c the political establishment needs to be shaken up and reminded they are only powerful if we allow them to be. I wanted anyone but Hillary to win.

Just because call myself a conservative doesn't mean I don't hold classical liberal views on issues. I align much more with older Dems that haven't been indoctrinated by the SJW/Identity Politics of the Left than I do with the Fox News loyalists on most social issues in addition to foreign policy, Immigration and others. At the end of the day I consider myself a conservative because I believe what can be handled locally by government, should be. The Federal government should have few responsibilities imo.

But I certainly like liberals, dudes like Rubin, Gad Saad, Sam Harris, Jordan Peterson are people that I subscribe to and all are liberals. I think liberals are necessary in society to unsure we progress, just as conservatives ensure we conserve/don't abandon the ideals the made Western Civilization the greatest society in the world.

I just despise leftists/collectivists.

Sorry for the derail, this has nothing to do with Immigration.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Buc2 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:25 pm

And the derail continues. :roll:
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:50 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I think you’ll see that almost no one on this board supports one apart from a couple. I don’t. At least not the kind the administration is proposing


I don't oppose a wall being built. We already have a bunch of fencing w/ barbed wire up, so are we really debating the semantics between the various types of physical barriers?? Or are people opposed to physical barriers/borders as a means to mitigate illegal border crossings??

I realize people crossing the border isn't the #1 cause of illegal/undocumented immigrants in the US and that people fly here and just never leave is the biggest cause. But that is why we have ICE. That said, people, drugs, weapons do cross the boarder from Mexico. So additional physical boarders would mitigate some of that imo.

But "The Wall" wasn't the reason I voted for Trump, so it getting built isn't a dealbreaker either way for me. From a political perspective it would certainly help him if he finds a way get it funded/built.

Because a Mexican drug cartel making millions in ill-gotten gains is going to walk up to the wall and say "Gosh! Guess we're done now!" and just cease operations. The wall is a massively expensive equivalent to a security sticker in a retail store. It's only going to stop the people that weren't really intent on breaking the law in the first place.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 8:56 pm

NYBF wrote:
Brazen331 wrote: letting whoever got lucky bring in a 100 random relatives.


Surely you have examples of this happening.

Sure, the terrorist Sayfullo Saipov (sp?). How many dozens did he chain migrate?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Swashy » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:51 pm

The answer to immigration reform is not putting up a wall it's opening channels. The solution isn't ending chain migration, lotteries etc. The solution is to be making the process easier to become an American. To the point where you cannot possibly **** it up and there is no need to be entering the United States illegally. Once you simplify the process and remove any need for illegality then you can implement a consequence. Such as that we make citizenship easy enough for even an illiterate to understand. We do that and put a date on it. By that point if a Mexican is subsequently found here illegally, he is immediately deported back to Mexico and hopefully with cooperation from the government, can face jail time. By that point the Mexicans have only themselves to blame for illegal occupation. Under the new rules illegal aliens of Mexico are deported because they'd have their chance to register legally without repercussion. If they don't then it's intentional law breaking. If you're going to PURPOSELY **** up a grace period there's no reason for that person to be here.

If Mexicans want to come here and work for piss poor wages and send it back home legally then that's their own right. As necessary you put in a stipulation such as they are disqualified from healthcare, food stamps, voting etc if they're here just to take American jobs and give it back to the motherland. You're more than welcome to live here and work here for the rest of your life but don't expect us to take care of your pregnant wife 7 months after your arrival because you are simply a Mexican nationalist with an American job and you happened to get her across the border legally. You don't take from the pot, not put back into it and then expect to take more. But if you want to make your money here in America and spend it here because you live here then that's an entirely different story. I don't know when that disqualification would kick in but there HAS TO be one. A limit has to come somewhere or else the system abuse would continue indefinitely. I know it's a hard situation but damn it there are limits to generosity

I have no problem with Mexicans. I have a problem with Mexicans breaking the law by coming here illegally and using the system. Simply create fair legislation and fair safeguards so you are lawfully justified to prevent abuse of the system and lawfully justified to take legal action against those who wish to do one or the other or both.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:50 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Would the conservatives of the board care to state which reason best explains their opposition to immigration from central and south America?

They take Jobs
They become welfare recipients
They vote for Democrats
No assimilation into US culture
White Genocide


Did Sheila Jackson Lee hack your account? You’re better than this.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby mdb1958 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:20 am

MB laying down the peer pressure, illegal turns into just plain immigration. Then of course he does the "bad America narrative".
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