Immigration question for the Progressives

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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Pirate Life » Thu Jan 25, 2018 3:46 pm

Simplest way to reduce illegal immigration by large percentages is to enforce the law on company's actually verifying worker's citizenship. Slap companies that hire illegal immigrants hard, hefty fines and penalties, etc. They're coming here for jobs, and businesses keep looking the other way to hire cheap labor. If necessary, implement a national id card and associated database of said cards. When companies start cleaning up their hiring practices rather than risk the fines/penalties/etc, illegal immigration will naturally fall as the jobs they are coming here to get won't be available.

Currently, companies generally don't see much in the way of consequences by and large if they are found to employ illegal immigrants. Too easy to hire without actually checking people's citizenship status when filling out an I-9 or to do it with a wink and a nod, then feign ignorance/shock when the employee(s) are caught as being in the country illegally.

In response to the OP, slightly modified choice from the list: increase funding for the border. Moreso than just increasing the number of agents, there are better ways to spend the funds to allow ICE to secure the border than to just throw more bodies at it. Better technology (drones, sensors, cameras, etc) to act as a force multiplier for instance.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:06 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Security stickers are massively expensive? (that's a terrible analogy fwiw)

bucfanclw wrote:Good God you wall proponents are dense.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Buc2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:29 pm

Pirate Life wrote:Simplest way to reduce illegal immigration by large percentages is to enforce the law on company's actually verifying worker's citizenship. Slap companies that hire illegal immigrants hard, hefty fines and penalties, etc. They're coming here for jobs, and businesses keep looking the other way to hire cheap labor. If necessary, implement a national id card and associated database of said cards. When companies start cleaning up their hiring practices rather than risk the fines/penalties/etc, illegal immigration will naturally fall as the jobs they are coming here to get won't be available.

Currently, companies generally don't see much in the way of consequences by and large if they are found to employ illegal immigrants. Too easy to hire without actually checking people's citizenship status when filling out an I-9 or to do it with a wink and a nod, then feign ignorance/shock when the employee(s) are caught as being in the country illegally.

In response to the OP, slightly modified choice from the list: increase funding for the border. Moreso than just increasing the number of agents, there are better ways to spend the funds to allow ICE to secure the border than to just throw more bodies at it. Better technology (drones, sensors, cameras, etc) to act as a force multiplier for instance.

National ID cards could also serve to prove citizenship at polling stations. 2 birds, 1 stone. Good idea.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:51 pm

Buc2 wrote:National ID cards could also serve to prove citizenship at polling stations. 2 birds, 1 stone. Good idea.

It's interesting seeing you as a proponent of giving the Federal government control of a compulsory database to verify all our personal information.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Buc2 » Thu Jan 25, 2018 4:55 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Buc2 wrote:National ID cards could also serve to prove citizenship at polling stations. 2 birds, 1 stone. Good idea.

It's interesting seeing you as a proponent of giving the Federal government control of a compulsory database to verify all our personal information.

And you thought you knew me. :lol:

Edit: Besides, they already have a database on me from my DL and credit cards more than likely. So what's one more card?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:02 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Buc2 wrote:National ID cards could also serve to prove citizenship at polling stations. 2 birds, 1 stone. Good idea.

It's interesting seeing you as a proponent of giving the Federal government control of a compulsory database to verify all our personal information.


Not really since you require a government issued ID to function in American society. I'll grant you we are not required to get one, but then getting job, opening a bank account, cashing a check, sending/receiving money, driving a car, etc aren't required either I suppose.

I don't know a single adult US citizen that doesn't have some form of government issued ID, do you? If so, do you know why?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:03 pm

Buc2 wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:It's interesting seeing you as a proponent of giving the Federal government control of a compulsory database to verify all our personal information.

And you thought you knew me. :lol:

Edit: Besides, they already have a database on me from my DL and credit cards more than likely. So what's one more card?


Except it would not have be one more, It could easily replace your DL and have all that information on it via a CAC.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:19 pm

Depending on how it’s structured and what it is used for, I don’t have an issue with a National ID card, we kind of already have them in SS cards.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jan 25, 2018 5:48 pm

I don't understand this phobia of National ID cards. We already do it at the state level and like Zarni stated they have our SS#.

The Feds can get into any DMV database and pull your info already.

Who here does not own a government issued ID already?

What are drawbacks of a National ID that don't exist already? Do we not see the value when it comes to improving the integrity of elections, illegal hiring practices from employers, etc?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:00 pm

It's just a bit funny seeing the guys that complain all the time about Federal government overreach are lining up to demand the feds create a national database (vs state-level) for all our information because it's more efficient at the federal level.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:07 pm

DreadNaught wrote:I don't understand this phobia of National ID cards. We already do it at the state level and like Zarni stated they have our SS#.

The Feds can get into any DMV database and pull your info already.

Who here does not own a government issued ID already?

What are drawbacks of a National ID that don't exist already? Do we not see the value when it comes to improving the integrity of elections, illegal hiring practices from employers, etc?




For me it all depends on what it is used for. If it’s primary purpose is for identification, including voter ID, I have no issue. For example I have a federally issued Passport and a federally issued SS card. Both function primarily as IDs

If somehow data is collected with it then I oppose it. For example if we have to swipe IDs when we purchase stuff or travel (domestic), etc
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:59 pm

Well we will see what the Dems are willing to give up



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WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. President Donald Trump is ready to sign on to a plan that would open a path to citizenship for as many as 1.8 million "Dreamers," who were brought illegally to the United States as children, senior White House officials said on Thursday.

Trump's plan, which the White House hopes the Senate will vote on in early February, would require Congress to set up a $25 billion "trust fund" to build a wall on the southern border with Mexico, and invest in better protections at the northern border with Canada.


It would also require Congress to limit family sponsorship of immigrants to spouses and minor children, end a visa lottery system for certain countries, and spend additional money on border guards and immigration judges - among other measures - the officials told reporters in a briefing.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Sammich » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:00 pm

NYBF wrote:Can we go to the Titty Twister?


Hanging out in a wild bar with Clooney, Danny Trejo, Harvy Keitel, and Quentin T while watching Selma Hayek dance? Totally worth getting eaten.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:45 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Good God you wall proponents are dense. The wall is a massively expensive DETERRENT... like a security sticker. It won't stop the people we're really concerned with. It's only going to stop the desperate families that are just trying to work and pay taxes for a better life. We're not spending that money to stop guns or drugs because it won't even slow them down.


I'm a physical barrier proponent! So were Obama, Hillary, Schumer and a bunch of other politicians you support until a few years ago.

Security stickers are massively expensive? (that's a terrible analogy fwiw)

Are these "desperate families that are just trying to work and pay taxes for a better life" the same "people" you were referencing earlier that don't intend to break the law (by breaking the law)? Or are they just one time law breakers and should be trusted not to do it again?

Your last sentence can't be validated, but you're certainly entitled to that opinion. I'd counter by saying the physical barriers that are already in place do in fact serve as a deterrent which is why the majority of border crossings on foot occur where there is no physical barrier as opposed to where there is fencing.

By your logic we should rip all the barriers down since it only prevents the "desperate families" from breaking our immigration laws and that any physical barrier is completely useless in stopping or even slowing down human trafficking, drugs, or guns coming in from Mexico.

That would be the president's position. The barrier we have doesnt stop anyone, so lets make a bigger barrier. THEN it'll work!

Reminds me of the gun debate. "We already have gun laws!" "Just enforce the laws on the books!"
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:47 pm

bucfanclw wrote:It's just a bit funny seeing the guys that complain all the time about Federal government overreach are lining up to demand the feds create a national database (vs state-level) for all our information because it's more efficient at the federal level.


I have a passport, pay my taxes, and have a SS card so I'm already in a national database. You can't name a single new drawback that doesn't already exist.

You're acting like this would add some new level of intrusion that doesn't already apply.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby bucfanclw » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:09 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:It's just a bit funny seeing the guys that complain all the time about Federal government overreach are lining up to demand the feds create a national database (vs state-level) for all our information because it's more efficient at the federal level.


I have a passport, pay my taxes, and have a SS card so I'm already in a national database. You can't name a single new drawback that doesn't already exist.

You're acting like this would add some new level of intrusion that doesn't already apply.

Where did I disagree with a national ID? Again, I just see the humor in guys that constantly harp on small government wanting more federal intervention.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:15 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
I have a passport, pay my taxes, and have a SS card so I'm already in a national database. You can't name a single new drawback that doesn't already exist.

You're acting like this would add some new level of intrusion that doesn't already apply.

Where did I disagree with a national ID? Again, I just see the humor in guys that constantly harp on small government wanting more federal intervention.

I guess the point that you are missing is they don't consider it to be additional government intervention for anyone who is currently a citizen. I had a more general statement, but there are those who absolutely see national ID as another step to Orwellian database.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:32 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Where did I disagree with a national ID? Again, I just see the humor in guys that constantly harp on small government wanting more federal intervention.

I guess the point that you are missing is they don't consider it to be additional government intervention for anyone who is currently a citizen. I had a more general statement, but there are those who absolutely see national ID as another step to Orwellian database.

This is what a lot of conservatives (none of whom are here, I'm sure) when they say they want small government. What they mean is that they want small government for THEM. They'll weild that government power all over everyone else, so long as it lets them do whatever they want.

This is how we can lead the G8 in police shootings per 100 people by far and nobody cries about fascism.

This is how we can have a for profit prison system that incarcerates people for YEARS for crimes with no victims and nobody cares.

This is how we can be at war for over 15 years and nobody gives it a second thought unless theres a mass casualty event.

Small government aint so small to some people.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:35 pm

Everybody loves the cops until they get pulled over.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:42 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Everybody loves the cops until they get pulled over.


Are you drunk?
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:43 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I guess the point that you are missing is they don't consider it to be additional government intervention for anyone who is currently a citizen. I had a more general statement, but there are those who absolutely see national ID as another step to Orwellian database.

This is what a lot of conservatives (none of whom are here, I'm sure) when they say they want small government. What they mean is that they want small government for THEM. They'll weild that government power all over everyone else, so long as it lets them do whatever they want.

This is how we can lead the G8 in police shootings per 100 people by far and nobody cries about fascism.

This is how we can have a for profit prison system that incarcerates people for YEARS for crimes with no victims and nobody cares.

This is how we can be at war for over 15 years and nobody gives it a second thought unless theres a mass casualty event.

Small government aint so small to some people.


I don’t disagree with any of this.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:43 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Everybody loves the cops until they get pulled over.


Are you drunk?


Likely.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:47 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Where did I disagree with a national ID? Again, I just see the humor in guys that constantly harp on small government wanting more federal intervention.

I guess the point that you are missing is they don't consider it to be additional government intervention for anyone who is currently a citizen. I had a more general statement, but there are those who absolutely see national ID as another step to Orwellian database.



Indeed. As I said, we already have the basic equivalent of two federal ids — SS cards and Passports (granted not everyone gets a Passport).

No reason those two can’t be combined into one.

If the new ID is used exactly how those two currently I don’t understand how it is more government intervention. Putting a picture on the SS card is long overdue anyway. It’s clearly the most easily forged document we have


I don’t support any use of card for any other reason. I don’t want it to displace DLs or anything like that


If we don’t get an id I don’t care that way either. It’s a trivial matter in my mind.
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:50 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:This is what a lot of conservatives (none of whom are here, I'm sure) when they say they want small government. What they mean is that they want small government for THEM. They'll weild that government power all over everyone else, so long as it lets them do whatever they want.

This is how we can lead the G8 in police shootings per 100 people by far and nobody cries about fascism.

This is how we can have a for profit prison system that incarcerates people for YEARS for crimes with no victims and nobody cares.

This is how we can be at war for over 15 years and nobody gives it a second thought unless theres a mass casualty event.

Small government aint so small to some people.


I don’t disagree with any of this.


You really believe the frequency of police shootings are due to a fascist government?

I think that merits a discussion more than anything else.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:54 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
I don’t disagree with any of this.


You really believe the frequency of police shootings are due to a fascist government?

I think that merits a discussion more than anything else.




In all honesty I basically ignore that word on this board as it’s used incorrectly 99% of the time.

I don’t disagree with the underlying premise that often times people overlook excessive force on the population by police and SWAT
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:54 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Are you drunk?


Likely.

I AM the liquor.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:55 pm

Ha! You’re catching on
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:55 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
I don’t disagree with any of this.


You really believe the frequency of police shootings are due to a fascist government?

I think that merits a discussion more than anything else.

Sorry. I'll type "police state" next time.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:58 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Likely.

I AM the liquor.


I sense a trend on Thursday nights. More power to you, man. I'll be there tomorrow.
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Re: Immigration question for the Progressives

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:58 pm

We'll put 100,000 dudes with AR's and a full combat load no problem on the border, but god forbid the city council starts fining people for not mowing their grass. TYRANNY!
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