**OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

A Place to respectfully discuss those topics that you should never discuss.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 8:19 am

Asked and answered.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed May 02, 2018 8:22 am

I don't see any answers...if you have posted answers to these types of questions before direct to the post and I'd be happy to read

those seem like fairly straightforward, non-ideological, non-emotional questions
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 8:51 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I don't see any answers...if you have posted answers to these types of questions before direct to the post and I'd be happy to read

those seem like fairly straightforward, non-ideological, non-emotional questions

Well, question 1 kinda answers them all, doesn't it?

I said last night that there should be no financial barrier to healthcare. period.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 9:08 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I don't see any answers...if you have posted answers to these types of questions before direct to the post and I'd be happy to read

those seem like fairly straightforward, non-ideological, non-emotional questions



I said last night that there should be no financial barrier to healthcare. period.


I guess that brings me back to the first question I asked you. Define the healthcare that should be covered?

If it's everything possible to keep someone alive, you don't think any country is good enough...and no solution will satisfy you. All government run healthcare programs around the world have their limits to what they will offer and/or cover.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed May 02, 2018 9:55 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:I said last night that there should be no financial barrier to healthcare. period.



It doesn't answer it at all...and I personally think that is one of the biggest issues with the progressive ideology right now.


We have a finite supply of money in the nation....we have infinite health care needs.

Saying everyone should get healthcare isn't an actionable response...it would bankrupt the country...and the world.


Even now, only the top .000000001% can get all the healthcare they can potentially want.


So what level of healthcare should people get under MEDICAID or any single payer health system? It seems like a reasonable question. I have yet to hear a reasonable response to it.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed May 02, 2018 9:56 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
If it's everything possible to keep someone alive, you don't think any country is good enough...and no solution will satisfy you. All government run healthcare programs around the world have their limits to what they will offer and/or cover.


this is pretty much my issue with many progressive folks. it's always "more". but "more" can never be defined, nor can a limit ever be reached
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 9:59 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:

I said last night that there should be no financial barrier to healthcare. period.


I guess that brings me back to the first question I asked you. Define the healthcare that should be covered?

If it's everything possible to keep someone alive, you don't think any country is good enough...and no solution will satisfy you. All government run healthcare programs around the world have their limits to what they will offer and/or cover.

Perhaps it would be shorter list to define what would not be covered.

Even if we decide to go down that road, the discussion would be pointless as neither Zarni or yourself would be satisfied with any socialization of medicine beyond what is currently in place and I would speculate that both of you would like to eliminate those coverages as well because of your already stated aversion to paying taxes.

Given the medical and insurance industry's penchant for buying politicians right and left for the express purpose of getting both the consumer and the taxpayer to pay them ever larger sums of money, it baffles me that you would want to give them more control over your life.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:04 am

Zarniwoop wrote:We have a finite supply of money in the nation....


That never seems to be a problem for the Defense industry or the Finance industry.

There's never enough money to benefit people, but there's always plenty of money laying around to benefit business.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby deltbucs » Wed May 02, 2018 10:05 am

Some good points made on both sides here.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:08 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
I guess that brings me back to the first question I asked you. Define the healthcare that should be covered?

If it's everything possible to keep someone alive, you don't think any country is good enough...and no solution will satisfy you. All government run healthcare programs around the world have their limits to what they will offer and/or cover.


Given the medical and insurance industry's penchant for buying politicians right and left for the express purpose of getting both the consumer and the taxpayer to pay them ever larger sums of money, it baffles me that you would want to give them more control over your life.


I get you are trying to be clever in response to what I said, but your statement doesn't add up. What control do insurance companies have over my life? In the system I live in I choose what is covered and what isn't and pay a cost for additional services. There are services that are too high in cost for me to justify or that I can reasonably afford and that's where it ends. It sounds barbaric, but it's reality in all healthcare systems. There's a point where the cost is too high to maintain the fight. At least in our society we get to choose that point for the most part instead of the government.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:12 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:We have a finite supply of money in the nation....


That never seems to be a problem for the Defense industry or the Finance industry.

There's never enough money to benefit people, but there's always plenty of money laying around to benefit business.

This is another empty statement.

We spent more money on medicare than the military in 2016, 2017 and we will in 2018. They both demand a huge amount of money and there is a finite amount.

Your second sentence doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that by taking less money from business we are giving them money?
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:19 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Given the medical and insurance industry's penchant for buying politicians right and left for the express purpose of getting both the consumer and the taxpayer to pay them ever larger sums of money, it baffles me that you would want to give them more control over your life.


I get you are trying to be clever in response to what I said, but your statement doesn't add up. What control do insurance companies have over my life? In the system I live in I choose what is covered and what isn't and pay a cost for additional services. There are services that are too high in cost for me to justify or that I can reasonably afford and that's where it ends. It sounds barbaric, but it's reality in all healthcare systems. There's a point where the cost is too high to maintain the fight. At least in our society we get to choose that point for the most part instead of the government.


You just admitted to me that you do not have the resources to keep you or your loved ones alive in the event of a catastrophic illness. And you are okay with this because of the Federal budget? Because of ideology?

You are at the mercy of your insurer. So long as you pay him whatever you can afford, you will get the care they give you. You have ZERO negotiating power in this situation. You have no voice in that boardroom. For all the talk about "Death panels" in government during the Obamacare debate, Republicans consistently neglected to notice that was exactly what was already happening with the current system and it does today. You and I will ultimately die under the current healthcare system when it is no longer profitable to keep us alive regardless of our doctor's ability. The end of our life will be decided by a spreadsheet.

Your function is to produce and consume. When you can do neither, you are obsolete.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:21 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
That never seems to be a problem for the Defense industry or the Finance industry.

There's never enough money to benefit people, but there's always plenty of money laying around to benefit business.

This is another empty statement.

We spent more money on medicare than the military in 2016, 2017 and we will in 2018. They both demand a huge amount of money and there is a finite amount.

Your second sentence doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that by taking less money from business we are giving them money?

My second sentence refers to bailouts, discretionary pork barrel projects, and all sorts of other money that goes into the trough. Stop pretending the public is the problem.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:27 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
I get you are trying to be clever in response to what I said, but your statement doesn't add up. What control do insurance companies have over my life? In the system I live in I choose what is covered and what isn't and pay a cost for additional services. There are services that are too high in cost for me to justify or that I can reasonably afford and that's where it ends. It sounds barbaric, but it's reality in all healthcare systems. There's a point where the cost is too high to maintain the fight. At least in our society we get to choose that point for the most part instead of the government.


You just admitted to me that you do not have the resources to keep you or your loved ones alive in the event of a catastrophic illness. And you are okay with this because of the Federal budget? Because of ideology?

You are at the mercy of your insurer. So long as you pay him whatever you can afford, you will get the care they give you. You have ZERO negotiating power in this situation. You have no voice in that boardroom. For all the talk about "Death panels" in government during the Obamacare debate, Republicans consistently neglected to notice that was exactly what was already happening with the current system and it does today. You and I will ultimately die under the current healthcare system when it is no longer profitable to keep us alive regardless of our doctor's ability. The end of our life will be decided by a spreadsheet.

Your function is to produce and consume. When you can do neither, you are obsolete.


What you said applies to all aspects of life. I'm at the mercy of the Bank/builder to how big of a house I can live in. When I can't produce or consume, I'm obsolete. Same with the grocery store, the car dealership, everything. I get to pick what I am covered for. They will cover me for those things. I assess my risks and decide what will be covered.

It depends how catastrophic. As stated before, not many people have the financials to beat all illnesses and disease, regardless of the country or healthcare. It's part of life. I don't think that just anyone should get million dollar private or experimental treatments.

At the end of the day, you aren't special on a large scale, neither am I. We will either be supported by those around us, or if we can't afford to go on and those around us cannot support us... It'll be time to go. There's nothing wrong with that.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:28 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:This is another empty statement.

We spent more money on medicare than the military in 2016, 2017 and we will in 2018. They both demand a huge amount of money and there is a finite amount.

Your second sentence doesn't make any sense. Are you saying that by taking less money from business we are giving them money?

My second sentence refers to bailouts, discretionary pork barrel projects, and all sorts of other money that goes into the trough. Stop pretending the public is the problem.

I'm not. I apply blame to the public in large helpings.

Stop pretending the government isn't the problem.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:29 am

Hey, nobody has a problem with some limits on how big a house you get, but we're talking about medicine here.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Buc2 » Wed May 02, 2018 10:29 am

Why not just make everything free?
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:31 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:My second sentence refers to bailouts, discretionary pork barrel projects, and all sorts of other money that goes into the trough. Stop pretending the public is the problem.

I'm not. I apply blame to the public in large helpings.

Stop pretending the government isn't the problem.

The problem with the government is that you and I are no longer in charge of it.

Surely you understand that.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:31 am

Buc2 wrote:Why not just make everything free?

You get free euthanasia.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:31 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Hey, nobody has a problem with some limits on how big a house you get, but we're talking about medicine here.


Not talking about food? What about having a house at all? Should all people be provided a house? What about transportation?

....basically, what Buc2 said...
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:32 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I'm not. I apply blame to the public in large helpings.

Stop pretending the government isn't the problem.

The problem with the government is that you and I are no longer in charge of it.

Surely you understand that.

You don't vote?
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:35 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:The problem with the government is that you and I are no longer in charge of it.

Surely you understand that.

You don't vote?

delt, can you post that corruption is legal video again for usc? He still thinks we're still living in a democracy.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:36 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:You don't vote?

delt, can you post that corruption is legal video again for usc? He still thinks we're still living in a democracy.


What does that video have to do with you voting or not?
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:41 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:delt, can you post that corruption is legal video again for usc? He still thinks we're still living in a democracy.


What does that video have to do with you voting or not?

Just watch the first two minutes, please.

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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:44 am

I've seen the video.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 10:47 am

uscbucsfan wrote:I've seen the video.

So then you agree with me when I say the problem with the government is that you and I are no longer in charge of it....if we ever were.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed May 02, 2018 10:52 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:I've seen the video.

So then you agree with me when I say the problem with the government is that you and I are no longer in charge of it....if we ever were.


I do not agree.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby DreadNaught » Wed May 02, 2018 11:12 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
If it's everything possible to keep someone alive, you don't think any country is good enough...and no solution will satisfy you. All government run healthcare programs around the world have their limits to what they will offer and/or cover.


this is pretty much my issue with many progressive folks. it's always "more". but "more" can never be defined, nor can a limit ever be reached


Yup, it's the ideology of being 'progressive'. Change/Progress must be constant and a true progressive is never satisfied by definition. The moment a person is satisfied with the way things are on an specific issue they by definition become 'conservative' on that issue.

I don't intend that to be an indictment on progressive ideology. I believe we need progressives in society. It's just unfortunate that progressives have allowed the regressive identity-obsessive ideologues to align under their tent and hijack their party.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 11:28 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
this is pretty much my issue with many progressive folks. it's always "more". but "more" can never be defined, nor can a limit ever be reached


Yup, it's the ideology of being 'progressive'. Change/Progress must be constant and a true progressive is never satisfied by definition. The moment a person is satisfied with the way things are on an specific issue they by definition become 'conservative' on that issue.

I don't intend that to be an indictment on progressive ideology. I believe we need progressives in society. It's just unfortunate that progressives have allowed the regressive identity-obsessive ideologues to align under their tent and hijack their party.

Conversely, Society needs conservatives.

I look at it as a gas pedal, brake pedal analogy. Slam the gas and you go too far out of control too fast and hit a tree. Stand on the the brakes, and you never go anywhere. You sit in the driveway and die of Carbon Monoxide poisoning. You should press the gas when appropriate, you should press the brakes when appropriate. But you should be moving.

Conservatives are supposed to be the keepers of the tried and true. Sadly, they are now the keepers of the tried and failed (supply side). And they're infected with greed, they entertain racists, and have a distorted view of War, poverty, business, taxes, and have lost complete sight of the notion of the public good. They want everyone to live as badass as they think they do, but enable noone to live as badass as they think they do, because deep down they like to think they're better than everyone else.
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Re: **OFFICIAL 'FORTY-FIVE' DISCUSSION THREAD**

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 02, 2018 11:32 am

Let me modify that remark as being critical of Republicans rather than conservatism.
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