Random Education News

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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:21 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:If your kids are mostly getting As and Bs they are doing just fine. If you tell them the importance of education and participate in theirs you are doing just fine

If that's true, then it wouldn't matter what building you dropped them off at in the morning.

But your points remind me of what I call "The teacher's lament".

"I'm doing my job, so if your kid is struggling, its your fault." As a parent, I've heard variations of this line of bullshit for years.

The reverse is most often true. We parents talk to each other and know half your class has a bad grade, hates you, hates the assignments. It couldn't POSSIBLY be what's going on in class!

I thought it was a problem in WV, but its on a whole other level down here.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:25 pm

You’ll have to show me where i said the teacher doesn’t have an impact. In fact I specifically said teachers have to be held MORE accountable
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:27 pm

The fact of the matter remains


Two kids taking the same teacher can score wildly differently .... some of that can be explained by different abstraction levels of the kids brains ... but a good chunk can also be explained by how much education is valued in the home
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:48 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:The fact of the matter remains


Two kids taking the same teacher can score wildly differently .... some of that can be explained by different abstraction levels of the kids brains ... but a good chunk can also be explained by how much education is valued in the home

that's a self aggrandizing opinion to me. And I'm not even trying to pick a fight with you.

Certainly, there are shitbag parents out there who don't care what their kids do. But to me, that shouldn't even be a factor. Most of us want our kids to do well and we send our kids to the best schools we can to get them the best education they can.

My job as Dad is to send a fed, rested, well mannered kid to that classroom that has some inkling of the importance of what they are doing there. But once that bell rings, what happens next is out of my hands. And I, at that point defer to the education professional to professionally educate my child.

So when that person comes back to me and says that it's my fault, I know they are full of ****.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Sep 24, 2018 5:57 pm

Hmmmm....sounds like you are saying kids need good parents and good teachers. Wonder who else is saying that?
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Sep 24, 2018 6:04 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Hmmmm....sounds like you are saying kids need good parents and good teachers. Wonder who else is saying that?

You're the guy saying push the kids harder.

But if you'll pardon my saying so, I believe your little one is still in elementary school. I'm sure she's as bright as she is tough and will turn out fine, but you'll see my point of view a little clearer in the middle school years.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:52 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:If your kids are mostly getting As and Bs they are doing just fine. If you tell them the importance of education and participate in theirs you are doing just fine

If that's true, then it wouldn't matter what building you dropped them off at in the morning.

But your points remind me of what I call "The teacher's lament".

"I'm doing my job, so if your kid is struggling, its your fault." As a parent, I've heard variations of this line of bullshit for years.

The reverse is most often true. We parents talk to each other and know half your class has a bad grade, hates you, hates the assignments. It couldn't POSSIBLY be what's going on in class!

I thought it was a problem in WV, but its on a whole other level down here.

In four years of teaching, I never had more than 20 parents show up to “back-to-school” night. For over 180 students. Each semester.

I’d wager that about half my students did not turn in a single homework assignment. I called parents, left messages for failin students, and about 1 in 10 ever did anything until the student was literally going to fail the class (and usually the whole grade).

Certainly teachers bear a lot of the blame in the failure of students, but you should sub for a couple of weeks before you think you have it all figured out.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:26 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:If that's true, then it wouldn't matter what building you dropped them off at in the morning.

But your points remind me of what I call "The teacher's lament".

"I'm doing my job, so if your kid is struggling, its your fault." As a parent, I've heard variations of this line of bullshit for years.

The reverse is most often true. We parents talk to each other and know half your class has a bad grade, hates you, hates the assignments. It couldn't POSSIBLY be what's going on in class!

I thought it was a problem in WV, but its on a whole other level down here.

In four years of teaching, I never had more than 20 parents show up to “back-to-school” night. For over 180 students. Each semester.

I’d wager that about half my students did not turn in a single homework assignment. I called parents, left messages for failin students, and about 1 in 10 ever did anything until the student was literally going to fail the class (and usually the whole grade).

Certainly teachers bear a lot of the blame in the failure of students, but you should sub for a couple of weeks before you think you have it all figured out.

Sounds to me like you suck at your job
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:42 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:In four years of teaching, I never had more than 20 parents show up to “back-to-school” night. For over 180 students. Each semester.

I’d wager that about half my students did not turn in a single homework assignment. I called parents, left messages for failin students, and about 1 in 10 ever did anything until the student was literally going to fail the class (and usually the whole grade).

Certainly teachers bear a lot of the blame in the failure of students, but you should sub for a couple of weeks before you think you have it all figured out.

Sounds to me like you suck at your job

What has made you so sad this last year or so? Seriously, something in your life has you extremely bitter.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:15 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Sounds to me like you suck at your job

What has made you so sad this last year or so? Seriously, something in your life has you extremely bitter.

Jesus Christ, Ken.

Watch the ****ing game.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Rocker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:38 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:What has made you so sad this last year or so? Seriously, something in your life has you extremely bitter.

Jesus Christ, Ken.

Watch the ****ing game.


Hard no.

You may have meant your post to be humorous, but it came off as shitty and.... rude. You don’t get off so easily by trying to redirect.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:41 pm

Rocker wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Jesus Christ, Ken.

Watch the ****ing game.


Hard no.

You may have meant your post to be humorous, but it came off as shitty and.... rude. You don’t get off so easily by trying to redirect.

Butt out.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:42 pm

Wow. Just wow.


One of the very best things about this board is how supportive we are to each other about our jobs and best wishes for promotions and new jobs and congrats and celebration on good professional news


That was rubbish
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Rocker » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:49 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Rocker wrote:
Hard no.

You may have meant your post to be humorous, but it came off as shitty and.... rude. You don’t get off so easily by trying to redirect.

Butt out.


Meh. A spade is a spade, my dude.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby uscbucsfan » Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:49 pm

Listen, when MB wakes up and realizes what a douche he was, he'll expect us not to hold it against him because

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Nothing you do should ever affect you later in life
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:06 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:Listen, when MB wakes up and realizes what a douche he was, he'll expect us not to hold it against him because

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Nothing you do should ever affect you later in life

can I have my argument with Ken without your input please?
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Re: Random Education News

Postby RedLeader » Tue Sep 25, 2018 12:40 am

How can anyone expect MB to be happy when there’s so much to be angry about!!? Arrrrrgh.

Have some fuckng compassion!
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Buc2 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 8:12 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:Listen, when MB wakes up and realizes what a douche he was, he'll expect us not to hold it against him because


can I have my argument with Ken without your input please?

If that's what you want, take it to PM.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Buc2 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:16 am

My personal education story.

Throughout my school years, my mom moved around the country. A lot. I went to as many as 5 schools during 1 school year. Sometimes we'd miss as much as 2 weeks of school during a move...usually when it was a cross country move which we did 4 times. I didn't attend a single school for an entire school year until 9th grade. That was in Bristol, TN. For 10th grade, we were back in Middletown, OH. My junior & senior years were spent at Plant High in Tampa. That was the longest I ever attended a single school. In spite of all that, I was never held back a year. In fact, none of kids were (I was the youngest). In California alone, we lived in Santa Monica (where she happened to be when I was born and again when I was 7), Alhambra, LA, San Gabriel, Pasadena, and Altadena.

Now, I'm not going to sit here and say I got great grades because I didn't. I got average grades from about 6th grade until I graduated HS. Part of that was because the next closet sibling in age to me (a sister nearly 4 years older than me) left home after my 6th grade year, so there was no one in the house to make sure I was staying on top of my studies.

My mom worked as a server so she was never home in the evenings or weekends. That meant it was up to me to get up in the mornings and go to school. It was up to me to make sure I did my homework. I even wrote my own absence notes from the time I was in about 8th grade until I graduated. In HS at Plant (in '74-'75), we were allowed up to 30 excused absences a year (15 per semester) and I made sure I took every single one of them. There were times I didn't see my mom for days because she'd be in bed asleep when I got up to go to school and at work when I got home. Then I'd be in bed asleep by the time she came home. She never checked to see what classes I signed up for. She never asked me how things were going at school. She never went to parent/teacher conferences. For the most part, I was on my own. Did what I wanted whenever I wanted. I was her "good child" that never got into trouble (luckily) and never caused her any trouble, so she probably never felt she needed to be worrying about me. Never mind that my senior year in HS was spent drinking, smoking pot, street racing and never bringing a book home from school. Fortunately for me, I joined the navy out of HS and learned how to be a responsible adult. Even went to college and earned a bachelors degree after I left the service.

And don't be too hard on my mom. It was much tougher being a single parent back in the 60's & 70's than it is today. She provided everything we needed. Food, shelter. Made sure we got enrolled in school wherever she landed. One big thing she instilled in me...in all of us kids in fact...was a good work ethic. None of us were afraid of hard work in our adult lives. Her biggest fault was her wanderlust. After she escaped the VA/WV hills, where she was married the 1st time at 15 and having her 1st child at 16 (my oldest sister who is 16 years older than me), she just couldn't stay settled anywhere.

She also showed me the importance of a 2 parent household. Without getting into why, 10 years into my marriage, I had had enough. But I stayed until my girls got through HS. And I raised them in a single house. No moving around. I didn't want them to go through what we did growing up. Not that I have ever complained about my childhood. Just the opposite, in fact. I loved it.

I got to see a lot of our country from the back seat of my mom's car(s). From California to Ohio to Florida and lots of places in between. But on the other side of the coin, I have no friends from my childhood. Hell, I can't even remember most of their names. Same with teachers. I can't even tell you the names of all the schools I went to. When I joined the navy, I chose to go into a field that required a security background investigation. I had to bring my mom with me to help me fill out the background paperwork because I couldn't tell them where all I lived and went to school. So I learned enough from that experience to make sure my girls had the exact opposite experience growing up.

None of my other siblings graduated from HS. I was the first. I was also the only one to earn a 4 year college degree. Now, 3 of them did later go on to get their GED's (even my mom when she was in her 50's) and 1 of them went on to get associates degrees in college. Why did they drop out of HS? Everyone of them said it was because they lost interest due to all the moving and they just weren't motivated to finish. 2 of the 3 went into the military. A 4th & 5th brother had stayed with their dad when my mom left him back before I was born.

tl:dr
What am I saying with all the above? Imo, Zarni is absolutely right that it often takes an attentive parent for a child to excel in school. If the parents don't care, it is very likely their children won't care either. We learn, first and foremost, from our parents. We take a lot of our cues from our parents. That's not to say that some kids can't self-motivate. Fortunately for me, I was self-motivated enough to at least finish HS and go into a field (military service) that provided me the means to further my education.

It starts at home.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:33 am

that's a brave story to share B2 -- kudos to you.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:44 am

Here's what I'm struggling with on the "it starts at home" thing. It appears to assume that the schoolhouse is the constant. That every assistant wrestling coach is wholly qualified to teach Spanish. That every classroom is good to go whether it is in the building or in an old FEMA trailer behind the football bleachers.

That all these kids need is a parent that gives enough of a **** to push their kids to success through sheer willpower. That sounds like bootstraps to me. It sounds like dismissing the problem as being not our problem because we did well, or our kids did well, therefore everyone else should. I don't accept that.

It's not a solution, it's assigning blame.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:50 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Here's what I'm struggling with on the "it starts at home" thing. It appears to assume that the schoolhouse is the constant. That every assistant wrestling coach is wholly qualified to teach Spanish. That every classroom is good to go whether it is in the building or in an old FEMA trailer behind the football bleachers.

That all these kids need is a parent that gives enough of a **** to push their kids to success through sheer willpower. That sounds like bootstraps to me. It sounds like dismissing the problem as being not our problem because we did well, or our kids did well, therefore everyone else should. I don't accept that.

It's not a solution, it's assigning blame.




I have no idea how you can read anything that has been posted here and think that is what anyone is suggesting.

It has been stated several times now that for a kid to truly succeed it helps to have parents that care and teachers that are held to high standards and are accountable.

Every time we talk about education, nearly everyone says that schools have to do better. We just disagree on how they can do better. For example, I think linking teacher performance to student performance is a good idea. I think busting up the teacher's unions that protect shitty teachers' jobs is a good idea (In L.A. they fire only .03% of teachers --- basically saying if we hire you, don't ever worry about maintaining performance because we will NEVER fire you). I think paying good teachers differently than bad teachers is a great thing -- paying based on years of tenure is ****ing stupid. I think giving the teacher's more responsibility in curriculum and setting standards is a great thing because responsibility often drives motivation. I think state organization is dumb...I think local schools should have more say to deal with local kids.


again, how can you possibly read anything that is written and think people are letting teachers off? Schools off?
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Buc2 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:50 am

Zarniwoop wrote:that's a brave story to share B2 -- kudos to you.

Thanks. It was a fairly unique childhood to say the least... especially for a non-military and single parent family.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Sep 25, 2018 9:55 am

Buc2 wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:that's a brave story to share B2 -- kudos to you.

Thanks. It was a fairly unique childhood to say the least... especially for a non-military and single parent family.



I can't imagine what moving around like that would do to a kid. I was fortunate, I lived in the same house from the time I was 3 till the time I graduated college. When I hear stories like yours, it makes me even more appreciative of the fortune I had....and just like you, it makes me more determined to give my child the same (even at my personal detriment).
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Buc2 » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:02 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Here's what I'm struggling with on the "it starts at home" thing. It appears to assume that the schoolhouse is the constant. That every assistant wrestling coach is wholly qualified to teach Spanish. That every classroom is good to go whether it is in the building or in an old FEMA trailer behind the football bleachers.

That all these kids need is a parent that gives enough of a **** to push their kids to success through sheer willpower. That sounds like bootstraps to me. It sounds like dismissing the problem as being not our problem because we did well, or our kids did well, therefore everyone else should. I don't accept that.

It's not a solution, it's assigning blame.




I have no idea how you can read anything that has been posted here and think that is what anyone is suggesting.

It has been stated several times now that for a kid to truly succeed it helps to have parents that care and teachers that are held to high standards and are accountable.

Every time we talk about education, nearly everyone says that schools have to do better. We just disagree on how they can do better. For example, I think linking teacher performance to student performance is a good idea. I think busting up the teacher's unions that protect shitty teachers' jobs is a good idea (In L.A. they fire only .03% of teachers --- basically saying if we hire you, don't ever worry about maintaining performance because we will NEVER fire you). I think paying good teachers differently than bad teachers is a great thing -- paying based on years of tenure is ****ing stupid. I think giving the teacher's more responsibility in curriculum and setting standards is a great thing because responsibility often drives motivation. I think state organization is dumb...I think local schools should have more say to deal with local kids.


again, how can you possibly read anything that is written and think people are letting teachers off? Schools off?


This was another saving grace for me growing up. Schools & teachers were different in the 60's & 70's. They were allowed to discipline kids even without permission from their parents. They also could teach without having to worry about standardized testing which allowed them to develop teaching styles that worked for them as well as their students. They could also pay more attention to kids that may have needed a little extra help. You think I could miss 2 weeks of school without my teacher willing to put in some extra time to get me caught up? No ****ing way! This was especially true when we'd go from eastern schools to California schools. They were always ahead of the schools back east academically. At least back then. Teachers back then seemed to care more as well. I think they took more pride in their craft. Maybe because they were allowed to actually practice their craft as they saw fit so long as their kids were learning what needed to be learned. There is way too much government involvement now days and many of our kids are paying the price. And it's not a good price.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:36 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Here's what I'm struggling with on the "it starts at home" thing. It appears to assume that the schoolhouse is the constant. That every assistant wrestling coach is wholly qualified to teach Spanish. That every classroom is good to go whether it is in the building or in an old FEMA trailer behind the football bleachers.

That all these kids need is a parent that gives enough of a **** to push their kids to success through sheer willpower. That sounds like bootstraps to me. It sounds like dismissing the problem as being not our problem because we did well, or our kids did well, therefore everyone else should. I don't accept that.

It's not a solution, it's assigning blame.




I have no idea how you can read anything that has been posted here and think that is what anyone is suggesting.

It has been stated several times now that for a kid to truly succeed it helps to have parents that care and teachers that are held to high standards and are accountable.

Every time we talk about education, nearly everyone says that schools have to do better. We just disagree on how they can do better. For example, I think linking teacher performance to student performance is a good idea. I think busting up the teacher's unions that protect shitty teachers' jobs is a good idea (In L.A. they fire only .03% of teachers --- basically saying if we hire you, don't ever worry about maintaining performance because we will NEVER fire you). I think paying good teachers differently than bad teachers is a great thing -- paying based on years of tenure is ****ing stupid. I think giving the teacher's more responsibility in curriculum and setting standards is a great thing because responsibility often drives motivation. I think state organization is dumb...I think local schools should have more say to deal with local kids.


again, how can you possibly read anything that is written and think people are letting teachers off? Schools off?

Busting up the teacher's unions is the fastest way to proliferate bad teachers. Teacher's unions are about teacher pay and benefits and safeguarding the profession. That doesn't say that there aren't bad actors out there that are mucking things up, but that is last thing that needs to happen.

You say linking teacher performance to student performance. Based on what metric? I know you are opposed to standardized testing and I am as well, so how do you make that link? Because if you tell the teacher that every student in their class has to be getting a minimum of a C or else, guess what you are gonna get? Exactly what you asked for.

Ken says half his kids are flunking out of his class. He calls parents, he tries to have meetings, he never gets homework back and half his students flunk out. Why? Parents? That is completely out of Ken's control. Nothing he or any other teacher can do about that. So what CAN Ken and other teachers control? Curriculum? That gets decided by McGraw Hill who lobbies state houses that set standards and buy textbooks. I'm sure teacher's bend over backwards on a daily basis trying to conform to what they are told to teach and how fast they teach it. I'm sure it is a constant pain in the ass. So what do the teacher's control?
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Sep 25, 2018 10:47 am

We’ve already debated all those things (you are free to read back and see my opinions) ... I don’t want to again right now unless there is something new. If there is, I’m happy to discuss

My point for posting was straightforward ... it was in response to your posts in this thread suggesting that people who put a burden on parents don’t hold teachers and schools accountable.

It’s not an either / or.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby PanteraCanes » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:30 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Here's what I'm struggling with on the "it starts at home" thing. It appears to assume that the schoolhouse is the constant. That every assistant wrestling coach is wholly qualified to teach Spanish. That every classroom is good to go whether it is in the building or in an old FEMA trailer behind the football bleachers.

That all these kids need is a parent that gives enough of a **** to push their kids to success through sheer willpower. That sounds like bootstraps to me. It sounds like dismissing the problem as being not our problem because we did well, or our kids did well, therefore everyone else should. I don't accept that.

It's not a solution, it's assigning blame.



There are few out there who hate trailers more than me. I have my own personal reasons.

From elementary school through high school I had classes in trailers and that did not really impact me. It was a building with walls, roof, protected from the weather, had ample lighting and working AC. I would guess that trailers are far better than what our species has lived in and with for the vast majority of its existence. Also probably better than what a lot of people in the world live in, if not the majority people of the world live in.

I fully agree that it is not on par with the current standards we try to hold to in this country. Though there really isn't room for excuse when it comes to that.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:34 am

as an aside....just read about this today on the chronicle of higher education...which is a pay site, so i found a quote from a free site

At least 30 Yale law professors cancelled classes Monday to allow students to travel to Washington, D.C. and protest Brett Kavanaugh, a graduate of the law school and President Trump's nominee to the Supreme Court.



dumb
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Re: Random Education News

Postby PanteraCanes » Tue Sep 25, 2018 11:38 am

Zarniwoop wrote:as an aside....just read about this today on the chronicle of higher education...which is a pay site, so i found a quote from a free site

At least 30 Yale law professors cancelled classes Monday to allow students to travel to Washington, D.C. and protest Brett Kavanaugh, a graduate of the law school and President Trump's nominee to the Supreme Court.



dumb


Hopefully the school got refunded on the teachers salaries for the days so they can help to refund the parents for the tuition.
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