Random Education News

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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:27 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:


I'm glad they are out of the private sector for the most part...of all of my friends only one, guy who works for AT&T, has a private pension plan like these...instead of the more common 401k.

I do think they are far more prevalent unfortunately in the public sector. Just like we pay the dickheads in Congress for their life.

Went to Wiki to see when the insanity of Congressional pensions began...

Members of Congress voted to extend pension benefits to the legislative branch under the CSRS (formerly limited to the executive branch) in January 1942 under a provision of P.L. 77-411. Congress repealed their pension two months later, due to public outcry in the early months of America's involvement in World War II. It was not until after the war, in 1946, that Congress would be covered under the CSRS with the passage of P.L. 79-601. The justification this time was that a pension would "bring into the legislative service a larger number of younger members with fresh energy and new viewpoints" by encouraging older Members to retire.

I got a good laugh out the bolded part. Instead, we have lifers with old, moldy, out-dated ideas and viewpoints.




LOL.

good find



I always laugh when Americans make fun of lifetime rulers of other countries and then we see folks in our Congress that have 30+ years of "service"

i guess we at least elect our tyrants
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Re: Random Education News

Postby bucfanclw » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:29 pm

I believe MB had a relatively elegant plan to resolve this issue...
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:29 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Just read an article that shows how the L.A. independent school district is $16B in debt....due almost exclusively to pensions. It seem they apply the 80 rule -- you get full salary pension till you die when your age + years of service = 80. Not only that, but you get 100% health care coverage at no cost to you for your entire lifetime.


Honestly...who in their right mind could have thought that up? Though the article was about education, we can generalize it to all of these types of pensions. These types of plans (sans the health care part) used to be common in the private sector too. My grandmother got a check from LTV till she died when she was 98 (even though my grandad died at 64).

In regards to those who craft/ed these types of plans

1.) Were they exceptionally idiotic at math and not understand that these plans could double or even triple labor costs as generations go on? (particularly in those cases when employee contribution is ZERO)

2.) Did they simply not care about the consequences because they figured they would be long gone before **** got really upside down?

3.) Pension funds were re-appropriated for other purposes creating what is referred to on the books as an "Unfunded pension liability". Employee contributions were the only funds routed to investment products and the returns are insufficient to pay retiree pensions. Additionally, the increase of productivity from computing, continued privatization of government services, and austerity minded Republicans and Democrats slashed employee levels over the course of a couple of decades further reducing money routed to pension funds making it impossible to even rob Peter to pay Paul.

"Rule of 80" pensions are still pretty common in State and local government. But since (primarily) Republicans continue to insist on cutting taxes to "promote economic growth" these types of liabilities will remain on the books and increase until such time as these people get fucked out of their pensions. We'll all justify it by deriding these people as bureaucrats who twiddled their thumbs for 30 years and deserve everything they're about to get.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:33 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Just read an article that shows how the L.A. independent school district is $16B in debt....due almost exclusively to pensions. It seem they apply the 80 rule -- you get full salary pension till you die when your age + years of service = 80. Not only that, but you get 100% health care coverage at no cost to you for your entire lifetime.


Honestly...who in their right mind could have thought that up? Though the article was about education, we can generalize it to all of these types of pensions. These types of plans (sans the health care part) used to be common in the private sector too. My grandmother got a check from LTV till she died when she was 98 (even though my grandad died at 64).

In regards to those who craft/ed these types of plans

1.) Were they exceptionally idiotic at math and not understand that these plans could double or even triple labor costs as generations go on? (particularly in those cases when employee contribution is ZERO)

2.) Did they simply not care about the consequences because they figured they would be long gone before **** got really upside down?

3.) Pension funds were re-appropriated for other purposes creating what is referred to on the books as an "Unfunded pension liability". Employee contributions were the only funds routed to investment products and the returns are insufficient to pay retiree pensions. Additionally, the increase of productivity from computing, continued privatization of government services, and austerity minded Republicans and Democrats slashed employee levels over the course of a couple of decades further reducing money routed to pension funds making it impossible to even rob Peter to pay Paul.

"Rule of 80" pensions are still pretty common in State and local government. But since (primarily) Republicans continue to insist on cutting taxes to "promote economic growth" these types of liabilities will remain on the books and increase until such time as these people get fucked out of their pensions. We'll all justify it by deriding these people as bureaucrats who twiddled their thumbs for 30 years and deserve everything they're about to get.



Thanks for adding #3, I should have said that our altruistic gov't workers stole from those pensions as well...I'm glad you are able to see that. I accept your addition.


But in reality, that's a pretty small chunk of the problem. A worker can take a job at 23, work 29 years and retire at 52 on full (or near full pay). That means the employer/city has to pay their salary for the next 30 years while also paying their replacement. YAY!! Let't pay two people to do one job! That should work out well.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Buc2 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:39 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:3.) Pension funds were re-appropriated for other purposes creating what is referred to on the books as an "Unfunded pension liability". Employee contributions were the only funds routed to investment products and the returns are insufficient to pay retiree pensions. Additionally, the increase of productivity from computing, continued privatization of government services, and austerity minded Republicans and Democrats slashed employee levels over the course of a couple of decades further reducing money routed to pension funds making it impossible to even rob Peter to pay Paul.

"Rule of 80" pensions are still pretty common in State and local government. But since (primarily) Republicans continue to insist on cutting taxes to "promote economic growth" these types of liabilities will remain on the books and increase until such time as these people get fucked out of their pensions. We'll all justify it by deriding these people as bureaucrats who twiddled their thumbs for 30 years and deserve everything they're about to get.



Thanks for adding #3, I should have said that our altruistic gov't workers stole from those pensions as well...I'm glad you are able to see that. I accept your addition.


But in reality, that's a pretty small chunk of the problem. A worker can take a job at 23, work 29 years and retire at 52 on full (or near full pay). That means the employer/city has to pay their salary for the next 30 years while also paying their replacement. YAY!! Let't pay two people to do one job! That should work out well.

And it's all the Republicans fault to boot. Fuckers.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:44 pm

We have shitty ponzi schemes like this....err...pensions in red states too.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:50 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:3.) Pension funds were re-appropriated for other purposes creating what is referred to on the books as an "Unfunded pension liability". Employee contributions were the only funds routed to investment products and the returns are insufficient to pay retiree pensions. Additionally, the increase of productivity from computing, continued privatization of government services, and austerity minded Republicans and Democrats slashed employee levels over the course of a couple of decades further reducing money routed to pension funds making it impossible to even rob Peter to pay Paul.

"Rule of 80" pensions are still pretty common in State and local government. But since (primarily) Republicans continue to insist on cutting taxes to "promote economic growth" these types of liabilities will remain on the books and increase until such time as these people get fucked out of their pensions. We'll all justify it by deriding these people as bureaucrats who twiddled their thumbs for 30 years and deserve everything they're about to get.



Thanks for adding #3, I should have said that our altruistic gov't workers stole from those pensions as well...I'm glad you are able to see that. I accept your addition.


But in reality, that's a pretty small chunk of the problem. A worker can take a job at 23, work 29 years and retire at 52 on full (or near full pay). That means the employer/city has to pay their salary for the next 30 years while also paying their replacement. YAY!! Let't pay two people to do one job! That should work out well.

The pension system in West Virginia was a defined contribution system. % of salary was given up to the pension fund with the state making its own contribution(in theory, seldom in practice)

Had I remained in Government, I would have been vested into the program at 5 years. The Rule of 80 states that the employee is eligible when the total of their years of serve and age is equal to 80. I was 36 when I started and I could not draw the pension prior to age 55 so 19 years if I want to stay in government my whole career and go right into my pension.

Here's how my pension would have been calculated.

High salary x years of service x 2% = annual pension payout.

$37,000 x 19 x 2% = $14,060 per year. 38% of salary.

$1,171.67 a month.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:01 pm

So how does it work now that you left?
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:10 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:So how does it work now that you left?

I wasn't vested so I was able to cash out my contributions.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:16 pm

So they are totally lost?

What % did they make you contribute?
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:20 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:So they are totally lost?

What % did they make you contribute?

I honestly don't remember what the amounts were, but I got my contributions back.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:36 pm

that's good...i thought for a moment you may not have even gotten that.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Selmon Rules » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:01 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Just read an article that shows how the L.A. independent school district is $16B in debt....due almost exclusively to pensions. It seem they apply the 80 rule -- you get full salary pension till you die when your age + years of service = 80. Not only that, but you get 100% health care coverage at no cost to you for your entire lifetime.


Honestly...who in their right mind could have thought that up? Though the article was about education, we can generalize it to all of these types of pensions. These types of plans (sans the health care part) used to be common in the private sector too. My grandmother got a check from LTV till she died when she was 98 (even though my grandad died at 64).

In regards to those who craft/ed these types of plans

1.) Were they exceptionally idiotic at math and not understand that these plans could double or even triple labor costs as generations go on? (particularly in those cases when employee contribution is ZERO)

2.) Did they simply not care about the consequences because they figured they would be long gone before **** got really upside down?

3.) Pension funds were re-appropriated for other purposes creating what is referred to on the books as an "Unfunded pension liability". Employee contributions were the only funds routed to investment products and the returns are insufficient to pay retiree pensions. Additionally, the increase of productivity from computing, continued privatization of government services, and austerity minded Republicans and Democrats slashed employee levels over the course of a couple of decades further reducing money routed to pension funds making it impossible to even rob Peter to pay Paul.

"Rule of 80" pensions are still pretty common in State and local government. But since (primarily) Republicans continue to insist on cutting taxes to "promote economic growth" these types of liabilities will remain on the books and increase until such time as these people get fucked out of their pensions. We'll all justify it by deriding these people as bureaucrats who twiddled their thumbs for 30 years and deserve everything they're about to get.


See Kentucky teacher pension crisis....
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Re: Random Education News

Postby RedLeader » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:06 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:I read the first article and have something to say about it, but im going to wait until I can devote as much time to it as it deserves.

But the crux of it is going to be that you can't defund education until its no longer the single greatest social and economic elevator in society.


Its not. Someone lied to you, bro.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:35 am

RedLeader wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I read the first article and have something to say about it, but im going to wait until I can devote as much time to it as it deserves.

But the crux of it is going to be that you can't defund education until its no longer the single greatest social and economic elevator in society.


Its not. Someone lied to you, bro.

What would you say is the best socioeconomic elevator in society if not education?
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:51 am

Effort
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:20 am

Zarniwoop wrote:Effort

You cannot possibly be that naive.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:27 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Effort

You cannot possibly be that naive.



You can't be so naive as to possibly not believe it can you?

You like the Brookings institute don't you?


https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/thre ... dle-class/


Their study (as done every other one on the subject of personal economic success) shows that if a person that is born into poverty (as defined by the US gov't) does the following three things

1.) Finish High School
2.) Get a job and keep it
3.) Not have kids before marriage

They only have a 2% chance of remaining in poverty. Indeed they have a 75% of entering the middle class (defined as $55,000+)


https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/thre ... dle-class/





So yes, I think effort and conscientiousness are about the best predictor we have when it comes to pulling people out of poverty or economic success in general




Unless of course, one wants to argue
1.) That study is BS -- in which they should be able to find a problem with methodology or find a study that contradicts it
2.) That those three "rules" are asking too much of someone
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:32 am

um...please take note of item #1 on your to do list.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:36 am

If you were actually talking about high school as the education in your post, then I apologize for misinterpreting
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:41 am

Zarniwoop wrote:If you were actually talking about high school as the education in your post, then I apologize for misinterpreting...however, given your idea that I should have to pay for millions of kids to go to college a year, I find that unlikely

No, college is not for everyone. That should be abundantly clear for anyone who went to one.

All that being said, there has been and and continues to be a strong correlation between income and educational attainment.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/high-school-graduates-who-work-full-time-had-median-weekly-earnings-of-718-in-second-quarter.htm

I just wish the BLS would have included technical education in their data set. Not all education is classical education.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby NYBF » Fri Apr 20, 2018 9:35 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:um...please take note of item #1 on your to do list.


:lol: :lol:
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Re: Random Education News

Postby RedLeader » Fri May 18, 2018 8:06 pm

Data scientists are in high demand, according to a report in Bloomberg. Some of the biggest tech giants in the U.S. are struggling to hire enough of them and that's sending the salaries of those with the right skills skyrocketing. According to the report, data scientists are "the most sought-after professionals in business, with some data science Ph.Ds commanding as much as $300,000 or more from consulting firms."
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri May 18, 2018 8:45 pm

Damn, I might need to change jobs
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Caradoc » Sat May 19, 2018 6:56 pm

Scenario one:

Person does step 1 but not 2 and 3

Scenario 2:

Person doesn't do step one, but does 2 and 3.

I'd bet my house that scenario two works out better 9 times out of 10.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 29, 2018 3:52 pm

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The problem.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Caradoc » Tue May 29, 2018 6:23 pm

Oversimplification of complex issues into emotionally satisfying (and self satisfying) black and white imagery? Yeah, that is a big problem in education today.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 29, 2018 8:48 pm

Caradoc wrote:Oversimplification of complex issues into emotionally satisfying (and self satisfying) black and white imagery? Yeah, that is a big problem in education today.

missing in the photo would be someone directing everyone into one line when they should be in the other.

Huge difference between a degree and an education.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 29, 2018 8:58 pm

Hmmmmm...let’s think what the major cause was of moving from actually teaching critical thinking, rhetoric / exposition and analytic skills in favor of memorization.....I wonder
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 29, 2018 9:38 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Hmmmmm...let’s think what the major cause was of moving from actually teaching critical thinking, rhetoric / exposition and analytic skills in favor of memorization.....I wonder

I'll take industrialization for $200, Alex.
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