Random Education News

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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:57 am

No, I don't buy the hasty generalization that it's all cultural. But I will concede its a factor even among white people.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:18 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:No, I don't buy the hasty generalization that it's all cultural. But I will concede its a factor even among white people.



For the record, I have never, nor will ever argue, that culture is responsible for 100% of the differences in performance across groups (however you define those groups). There are many other things as well -- socioeconomic status, intelligence of parents, race, obstacles you have to overcome, etc.

I simply think the left dismisses culture way too easy because they are so uncomfortable with the discussion partly because they often see that choices shouldn't have consequences -- the single parent thing is a great example -- I completely agree with the left that single parents (even those who made "mistakes" and didn't want the kids) shouldn't be morally looked down upon and ostracized...but I agree with the right in that a single 20 year mom has set up their child for a much more difficult life than a couple in their early 30's having their first child. And while it sucks for that child, it is what it is. Other people shouldn't have to pitch in to correct those obstacles.

Back to the role of culture....For example, Ashkenazi jews not only have the highest IQ they make the most money. Followed by Asians. IS this because of their cultures? Their heredity/biology? Both (probably)?

The effect is pronounced even by country....For examples, Japanese people living in Japan have a higher IQ then Japanese Americans who have a higher IQ than white folks in the US.

Just as a 2nd generation American with parents from Western Europe will have a higher IQ on average than a 2nd generation American with parents from Eastern Europe who happens to have a higher average IQ than people from Poland for example. Is that culture? Heredity? Both?





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Anyway, this is all a neat side track conversation I'm enjoying...but the fact of the matter is I don't think smart Asian kids should be discriminated against because they are Asian. And that is happening right now.
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Buc2 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:30 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Zarni, as the sole guy in higher ed here maybe you should explain to us what goes on at the admissions office.

My understanding is that most of the students who meet the qualifications that don't get in are the ones who are trying to cram into the more popular programs and that is where they have to make these decisions.

10,000 kids apply for 5,000 seats in the school of business so half get rejected for one reason or another but 300 students apply for 500 seats at the school of fine arts so they all get in.



Every school is different on several levels. Let's start at the elite level -- schools like Harvard accept about 5% of their applicants. The vast majority of these students are qualified to go to almost any school in America. A good state school like U of Michigan accepts about 25% of their students. Good private schools (not Ivy league level) like Notre Dame can be around 20% to 25% as well. Small private schools and regional state schools will have acceptance rates over 50% - sometimes as high as 80%. If you are a small private school all you really care about is whether someone can pay and has a good chance at graduating. If they can, you have every incentive to take their money.

My particular school doesn't consider race at all and yet we still score in the 80th percentile or higher every year for diversity (mainly because of large Hispanic and Asian segments in Dallas).




As for balancing out programs - again it all depends on the school. Small private schools and regional state schools don't really care about that. They just want students. Most large state schools are like that too. For the most part the % of students who major in a field is relatively stable across time. Most schools are built around those long run averages. You might get relatively minor fields like Diversity Ethics or Gender Studies something like that that experience large percentage shifts from one year to the next depending on what is the flavor of the month in culture, but most of the traditional programs (sciences, business, engineering, etc) change very slowly over time.

Many schools in fact, don't even let you apply to a college until your sophomore year -- you just get into the general University. At Ohio State, which is a good, but not great, state school, when they accept a student it is just to the university. As a sophomore that student will apply to the College of Business, College of Engineering, etc. The lower GPA students who want to study those fields will get turned away because of semi-fixed capacity. If they want to stay at OSU they have to find another major or improve their GPA. But those students aren't turned away at the acceptance level when applying in high school.

The balancing that you are talking about only occurs at the very elite schools. Harvard will absolutely turn away a 3.9 GPA who wants to study Business for a 3.6 GPA who wants to study Mathematics if there aren't enough 3.9 GPA Math majors. But again, those schools are pretty few and far between.

I don't know how USF does it now, but when I was there ('89-'91), you couldn't declare a major until certain core course requirements were met for the major you intended to study. I found that out the hard way. I wanted to major in accounting which was under the College of Business. However, I arrived there with a lib arts AA degree...meaning I was missing some of the core course requirements I needed in order to apply to the College of Business as an accounting major. I spent most of my first year there taking those missing courses. After a part-time curriculum of about 3 quarters taking courses I could have taken in community college, I was finally able to declare my major.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:34 pm

It is a good discussion and yes, the left does get uncomfortable considering culture.

One of the cultural hurdles for everyone is the thought that higher ed is only for the wicked smart or rich kids which is only partially true. I never considered college in HS because I thought my 3.2 gpa was not good enough to get in so I disregarded trying to avoid getting disappointed. The adults in my life were either ignorant of how that worked, or were too preoccupied pushing me to work harder to stop and tell me that it was absolutely in reach even if certain schools were less likely. They weren't screwing me over, just ignorant of the possibilities that did exist.

I can't imagine what it's like to grow up being told or otherwise believing that college was not for me by default. That's a fucked up thing to tell a kid.

Not a lot can be done about the "wicked smart" perception, but the "rich kid" one can be addressed by joining the rest of the modern world and removing much of the cost barriers by freeing tuition.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:00 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:It is a good discussion and yes, the left does get uncomfortable considering culture.

One of the cultural hurdles for everyone is the thought that higher ed is only for the wicked smart or rich kids which is only partially true. I never considered college in HS because I thought my 3.2 gpa was not good enough to get in so I disregarded trying to avoid getting disappointed. The adults in my life were either ignorant of how that worked, or were too preoccupied pushing me to work harder to stop and tell me that it was absolutely in reach even if certain schools were less likely. They weren't screwing me over, just ignorant of the possibilities that did exist.

I can't imagine what it's like to grow up being told or otherwise believing that college was not for me by default. That's a fucked up thing to tell a kid.

Not a lot can be done about the "wicked smart" perception, but the "rich kid" one can be addressed by joining the rest of the modern world and removing much of the cost barriers by freeing tuition.

Interestingly enough, the cost of education has skyrocketed over the last few decades. Professor salaries have barely increased at all. What has increased is the campus bureaucracy, and so tuition cost increases are basically the result of adding a managerial class to campus life.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:52 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:It is a good discussion and yes, the left does get uncomfortable considering culture.

One of the cultural hurdles for everyone is the thought that higher ed is only for the wicked smart or rich kids which is only partially true. I never considered college in HS because I thought my 3.2 gpa was not good enough to get in so I disregarded trying to avoid getting disappointed. The adults in my life were either ignorant of how that worked, or were too preoccupied pushing me to work harder to stop and tell me that it was absolutely in reach even if certain schools were less likely. They weren't screwing me over, just ignorant of the possibilities that did exist.

I can't imagine what it's like to grow up being told or otherwise believing that college was not for me by default. That's a fucked up thing to tell a kid.

Not a lot can be done about the "wicked smart" perception, but the "rich kid" one can be addressed by joining the rest of the modern world and removing much of the cost barriers by freeing tuition.

Interestingly enough, the cost of education has skyrocketed over the last few decades. Professor salaries have barely increased at all. What has increased is the campus bureaucracy, and so tuition cost increases are basically the result of adding a managerial class to campus life.



Yes, not only have professor salaries stagnated class sizes have gone up. Throw in the fact that the use of part time, non-tenure track professors is increasing exponentially (we recently crossed the 50% line in terms of courses taught by non-tenured factory in America) and its impossible to argue that school costs are rising because of faculty.

You hit the nail head on about administration. My school is a very small DIII school. We have under 2,000 students. We have 7 vice presidents. The highest paid teacher isn't in the top 15 of salaries on campus. It's insane. Here is a great article posted on Huffington that goes into the #'s. (mind you, I'm not complaining about teacher pay...most teachers are paid just fine....I'm looking at reducing overhead costs so students aren't burdened with as much debt)

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/ ... 38584.html


On average there are 2 1/2 administrators to every 1 full time faculty member!!! It’s jaw dropping.

If I'm improving the cost of education, administration is among the first things (if not the first thing) I look at.
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Re: Random Education News

Postby deltbucs » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:24 am

I'd imagine that everyone in this forum knows who the highest paid public employee is in most states....
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:42 am

Yes and in most instances it seems fine IMO
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Re: Random Education News

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:52 am

That Huffington article reminds me of an Oscar Wilde quote


the beareaucracy is expanding to meet the needs of the expanding beareaucracy



Sadly this is rampant in much of education and government and to some degree general business as well.

There needs to be a direct force against this. And sadly in education there isn’t much of one as the demand for education is highly inelastic.

It’s no different then when boardrooms full of CEOs sit down and make the compemsation package for another CEO...of course they will be outrageous. In education the administration sits down and figures out how much more administration it needs
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