Random Mass Shooting Thread

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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:05 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
bucfanclw wrote: But suggesting a national standard for required training and testing seems to really upset some people and I honestly don't know why.


While it doesn't upset me...I can see why people would be opposed to it.

Can you give me another protected right under the constitution that someone needs training in order to exercise?




--we have people on this board that argue against voting ID laws because it causes an unnecessary burden on people because they have to pay for an ID....I'm assuming these training classes wouldn't be free...


Apparently we need 1st amendment training. I never knew so many were ignorant to what the 1st amendment means until the NFL Anthem discussions.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:09 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Which would save the average taxpayer what, $5-$10? People keep saying tax breaks like it's some sort of actual incentive for things but I don't see it. But that's an argument for a different thread.



I agree...that was my point. A $20 tax break (classes are at least $100), wouldn't incentive a lazy gun owner to go to the gun range.


Classes in SC are mostly $80 and a break, depending on how advertised, could incentivize people. It would be promoted as a discounted time to shoot and familiarize people with new guns. I think you would be surprised how many gun owners would take advantage of that. I think you are underestimating a 10-20 dollar savings. Think about the target audience.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:19 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Classes in SC are mostly $80 and a break, depending on how advertised, could incentivize people. It would be promoted as a discounted time to shoot and familiarize people with new guns. I think you would be surprised how many gun owners would take advantage of that. I think you are underestimating a 10-20 dollar savings. Think about the target audience.



You could be right...who knows?

I know lots of people who go 5 to 10 years without firing their weapons....and personally I don't see money as the reason they don't...but my circle is obviously small relative to a national debate
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:23 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Classes in SC are mostly $80 and a break, depending on how advertised, could incentivize people. It would be promoted as a discounted time to shoot and familiarize people with new guns. I think you would be surprised how many gun owners would take advantage of that. I think you are underestimating a 10-20 dollar savings. Think about the target audience.



You could be right...who knows?

I know lots of people who go 5 to 10 years without firing their weapons....and personally I don't see money as the reason they don't...but my circle is obviously small relative to a national debate


Many of my military friends teach conceal and carry classes after they separate (go figure). They get huge bumps in business from little promotions, but it's expensive and in SC, there are so many ranges and instructors where at $80, they are barely making money. A large portion of their clientele are the types that would love for the government to pay a portion of the cost for them to fire, especially "new" (range) weapons. Obviously not everyone would take advantage of any sort of promotion, tax break, etc., but there would be a lot of people who do. Just my opinion.

edit: I mention the target audience for a reason. Many of these stereotypical gun owners fit the bill. These individuals, for the most part, do not want to be forced to take classes annually, but they would love to "stick it to the government" by firing on their dime.
Last edited by uscbucsfan on Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:24 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
bucfanclw wrote: But suggesting a national standard for required training and testing seems to really upset some people and I honestly don't know why.


While it doesn't upset me...I can see why people would be opposed to it.

Can you give me another protected right under the constitution that someone needs training in order to exercise?




--we have people on this board that argue against voting ID laws because it causes an unnecessary burden on people because they have to pay for an ID....I'm assuming these training classes wouldn't be free...

I need a permit to peacefully assemble or else I'm apparently as bad as a Nazi...
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:26 am

ok
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:28 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
While it doesn't upset me...I can see why people would be opposed to it.

Can you give me another protected right under the constitution that someone needs training in order to exercise?




--we have people on this board that argue against voting ID laws because it causes an unnecessary burden on people because they have to pay for an ID....I'm assuming these training classes wouldn't be free...

I need a permit to peacefully assemble or else I'm apparently as bad as a Nazi...


Good point.

Although one could argue the peaceful portion. Anyone protesting as a Nazi, not likely peaceful, depending on your definition. The same can be said about people counter protesting.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:30 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

You could be right...who knows?

I know lots of people who go 5 to 10 years without firing their weapons....and personally I don't see money as the reason they don't...but my circle is obviously small relative to a national debate


Many of my military friends teach conceal and carry classes after they separate (go figure). They get huge bumps in business from little promotions, but it's expensive and in SC, there are so many ranges and instructors where at $80, they are barely making money. A large portion of their clientele are the types that would love for the government to pay a portion of the cost for them to fire, especially "new" (range) weapons. Obviously not everyone would take advantage of any sort of promotion, tax break, etc., but there would be a lot of people who do. Just my opinion.

So again, a small financial incentive doesn't make much of a difference. While I don't have issue with government funds being used to bring down the cost of training because that has a real societal benefit, I still think the application would be under-served unless accompanied by some sort of training requirement.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:31 am

bucfanclw wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Many of my military friends teach conceal and carry classes after they separate (go figure). They get huge bumps in business from little promotions, but it's expensive and in SC, there are so many ranges and instructors where at $80, they are barely making money. A large portion of their clientele are the types that would love for the government to pay a portion of the cost for them to fire, especially "new" (range) weapons. Obviously not everyone would take advantage of any sort of promotion, tax break, etc., but there would be a lot of people who do. Just my opinion.

So again, a small financial incentive doesn't make much of a difference. While I don't have issue with government funds being used to bring down the cost of training because that has a real societal benefit, I still think the application would be under-served unless accompanied by some sort of training requirement.


Then you lose and nothing will be done.

And that's why nothing has been done regarding guns.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:37 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I need a permit to peacefully assemble or else I'm apparently as bad as a Nazi...


Good point.

Although one could argue the peaceful portion. Anyone protesting as a Nazi, not likely peaceful, depending on your definition. The same can be said about people counter protesting.

There's certainly hyperbole there on my part, but the Charlottesville Nazis were being routinely defended because they had a permit and the others didn't (even though both groups had permits, but I digress). Point being, I need to apply for a permit and pay a fee for the constitutionally protected right to peacefully assemble. That is generally viewed as perfectly acceptable due to the burden that puts on municipalities, but many people throw a fit if that same standard is applied to untrained people walking around with deadly weapons.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:38 am

bucfanclw wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Good point.

Although one could argue the peaceful portion. Anyone protesting as a Nazi, not likely peaceful, depending on your definition. The same can be said about people counter protesting.

There's certainly hyperbole there on my part, but the Charlottesville Nazis were being routinely defended because they had a permit and the others didn't (even though both groups had permits, but I digress). Point being, I need to apply for a permit and pay a fee for the constitutionally protected right to peacefully assemble. That is generally viewed as perfectly acceptable due to the burden that puts on municipalities, but many people throw a fit if that same standard is applied to untrained people walking around with deadly weapons.


Very few places allow people to walk around with deadly weapons without a permit.
People throw a fit about getting permits to assembly.

People bitch about everything.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:54 am

you don't need a permit and pay a fee to assemble....you have that right, it can't be taken away from you...invite 30 of your friends over to your house on your private land and see if you have to get a federal permit or pay the government to allow you to do that.

now if you choose to do it on certain types of land you might need a permit

just like buying a gun...you don't need a permit to buy a gun

but if you want to carry that gun on certain types of land you have to have a permit and pay a fee

and moreover, just like you won't necessarily be able to have a protest on every piece of land in America...a gun owner who has a right to carry also wont be allowed to take his gun anywhere..there are lots of places I have to leave my gun in my car.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:53 pm

Shooting at Kentucky high school kills 2, injures 19. Student with handgun apprehended.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby NYBF » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:29 pm

Two straight days with a school shooting. Let's see how long we can ride this streak!
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Kress » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:22 pm

The gun laws are a joke. In Florida, I just had to show my driver's license, let them run a background to make sure I had no felony convictions, and good to go.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Sammich » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:15 pm

If we want these shootings to stop we need to stop asking HOW and start asking WHY.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:19 pm

Deep.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:21 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
bucfanclw wrote: But suggesting a national standard for required training and testing seems to really upset some people and I honestly don't know why.


While it doesn't upset me...I can see why people would be opposed to it.

Can you give me another protected right under the constitution that someone needs training in order to exercise?




--we have people on this board that argue against voting ID laws because it causes an unnecessary burden on people because they have to pay for an ID....I'm assuming these training classes wouldn't be free...


Good point. I agree with you here.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby PrimeMinister » Thu Jan 25, 2018 6:25 pm

Kress wrote:The gun laws are a joke. In Florida, I just had to show my driver's license, let them run a background to make sure I had no felony convictions, and good to go.


Same thing here in Texas. What would you like to change about them? Honest question.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:14 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
Kress wrote:The gun laws are a joke. In Florida, I just had to show my driver's license, let them run a background to make sure I had no felony convictions, and good to go.


Same thing here in Texas. What would you like to change about them? Honest question.

Training

Training

Training

Booger hook off the bang switch, lock it up at night, your children WILL try to play with it, you WILL stand before a judge if you shoot somebody, X is your state law governing whether or not you have to drag the guy into your house after you shoot him through the door.

We put people through driver's ed for the sake of public safety...need a gun? Fill out this form and give me money.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby MJW » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:57 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
Same thing here in Texas. What would you like to change about them? Honest question.

Training

Training

Training

Booger hook off the bang switch, lock it up at night, your children WILL try to play with it, you WILL stand before a judge if you shoot somebody, X is your state law governing whether or not you have to drag the guy into your house after you shoot him through the door.

We put people through driver's ed for the sake of public safety...need a gun? Fill out this form and give me money.


You talk with gun control advocates, and few of them ever discuss disarming the police. For some of them, this is because they're statist tools. But for most, if they thought about it, it's because LEOs are well-trained. I'm libertarian AF, but I have no probably whatsoever with requiring at least the same level of training rigor someone needs to legally serve a drink in order to buy a gun.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Kress » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:08 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
Same thing here in Texas. What would you like to change about them? Honest question.

Training

Training

Training

Booger hook off the bang switch, lock it up at night, your children WILL try to play with it, you WILL stand before a judge if you shoot somebody, X is your state law governing whether or not you have to drag the guy into your house after you shoot him through the door.

We put people through driver's ed for the sake of public safety...need a gun? Fill out this form and give me money.



This.

I also wonder if we could implement a mental health visit with a psychologist. Then again, true sociopaths can lie their way through it. ****, I've done that and I'm not even a sociopath. I don't think.....
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Swashy » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:00 am

Kress wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Training

Training

Training

Booger hook off the bang switch, lock it up at night, your children WILL try to play with it, you WILL stand before a judge if you shoot somebody, X is your state law governing whether or not you have to drag the guy into your house after you shoot him through the door.

We put people through driver's ed for the sake of public safety...need a gun? Fill out this form and give me money.


We're Bucs fans. We lie to ourselves every day. We're experts by now

This.

I also wonder if we could implement a mental health visit with a psychologist. Then again, true sociopaths can lie their way through it. ****, I've done that and I'm not even a sociopath. I don't think.....
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:59 am

I just don't understand the training thing. How many gun deaths are there because people don't know how to use guns?

A gun is one of the simplest things in the world to use....certainly a whole lot simpler than a car.

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not talking about anything else like mental health...but what types of deaths are going to be prevented if everyone has to take training classes?


To me, it seems like a solution searching for a problem
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:29 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I just don't understand the training thing. How many gun deaths are there because people don't know how to use guns?

A gun is one of the simplest things in the world to use....certainly a whole lot simpler than a car.

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not talking about anything else like mental health...but what types of deaths are going to be prevented if everyone has to take training classes?


To me, it seems like a solution searching for a problem


This idiot wondered if his steel toed boot would stop a .45
Spoiler:
Image


Then there's this study from the American Academy of Pediatrics
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486

RESULTS: Nearly 1300 children die and 5790 are treated for gunshot wounds each year. Boys, older children, and minorities are disproportionately affected. Although unintentional firearm deaths among children declined from 2002 to 2014 and firearm homicides declined from 2007 to 2014, firearm suicides decreased between 2002 and 2007 and then showed a significant upward trend from 2007 to 2014. Rates of firearm homicide among children are higher in many Southern states and parts of the Midwest relative to other parts of the country. Firearm suicides are more dispersed across the United States with some of the highest rates occurring in Western states. Firearm homicides of younger children often occurred in multivictim events and involved intimate partner or family conflict; older children more often died in the context of crime and violence. Firearm suicides were often precipitated by situational and relationship problems. The shooter playing with a gun was the most common circumstance surrounding unintentional firearm deaths of both younger and older children.

CONCLUSIONS: Firearm injuries are an important public health problem, contributing substantially to premature death and disability of children. Understanding their nature and impact is a first step toward prevention.


There's a lot of preventable deaths there.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:35 pm

I don't understand how training fixes those things?

The first guy is a ****ing idiot...the LTC class I went to never trained me not to shoot myself in the foot to see if a boot would stop it


And why do you think a parent who clearly doesn't lock up their guns would all of a sudden do so because they were told to in training class? They are idiots too. I'm sure at some point somewhere in their life they were told not to let kids play with guns...or had that idea pop into their head on their own. And they chose not to act on it. I just don't think hearing it again from some random stranger in a training class is going to change their behavior.


Anyway .... we've discussed this at length in other threads...I don't need to de-rail this one farther.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:07 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:

Anyway .... we've discussed this at length in other threads...I don't need to de-rail this one farther.


Derail?

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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Buc2 » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:16 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I just don't understand the training thing. How many gun deaths are there because people don't know how to use guns?

A gun is one of the simplest things in the world to use....certainly a whole lot simpler than a car.

I'm not trying to be argumentative and I'm not talking about anything else like mental health...but what types of deaths are going to be prevented if everyone has to take training classes?


To me, it seems like a solution searching for a problem


This idiot wondered if his steel toed boot would stop a .45
Spoiler:
Image


Then there's this study from the American Academy of Pediatrics
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486

RESULTS: Nearly 1300 children die and 5790 are treated for gunshot wounds each year. Boys, older children, and minorities are disproportionately affected. Although unintentional firearm deaths among children declined from 2002 to 2014 and firearm homicides declined from 2007 to 2014, firearm suicides decreased between 2002 and 2007 and then showed a significant upward trend from 2007 to 2014. Rates of firearm homicide among children are higher in many Southern states and parts of the Midwest relative to other parts of the country. Firearm suicides are more dispersed across the United States with some of the highest rates occurring in Western states. Firearm homicides of younger children often occurred in multivictim events and involved intimate partner or family conflict; older children more often died in the context of crime and violence. Firearm suicides were often precipitated by situational and relationship problems. The shooter playing with a gun was the most common circumstance surrounding unintentional firearm deaths of both younger and older children.

CONCLUSIONS: Firearm injuries are an important public health problem, contributing substantially to premature death and disability of children. Understanding their nature and impact is a first step toward prevention.


There's a lot of preventable deaths there.

The best training in the world won't stop stupid.
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:53 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
This idiot wondered if his steel toed boot would stop a .45
Spoiler:
Image


Then there's this study from the American Academy of Pediatrics
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2017/06/15/peds.2016-3486



There's a lot of preventable deaths there.

The best training in the world won't stop stupid.

So why bother trying?
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Re: Random Mass Shooting Thread

Postby NYBF » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:11 pm

Nothing will work except giving out more guns. That's why you don't have things like school shootings in places with lots of guns, like Texas.
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