The Fourth Estate

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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:02 am

I think Delt is trying to lock one of us into saying the UK was wrong to arrest that reporter based on THEIR laws.
I will not allow myself to be backed into that ridiculous corner.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby deltbucs » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:22 am

DreadNaught wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Again...The media is allowed to report on it. They just had to wait until the trial was over. I don't recall any of you being upset about this until now. This isn't an attempt to stop free speech/freedom of the press. This law is in place specifically to protect civil liberties and guaranty a free trial. I guess it's just the world that we live in now with the 24-hour news cycle and some people need their news right now.


Underage girls are being kidnapped and raped. It should be reported on regardless of whatever trial(s) are occurring. Shining a light (in the form of coverage) on things like this is how you put an end to it. It's one of the big reasons press freedom is such an important freedom and covered in the very first amendment of the US Constitution.

It seems like a pretty cut and dry issue for me.

I think where TR got himself in trouble legally might have been not so much that he covered the issue, but how and who he covered specifically.

It seems like the alleged crimes of people like Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby shouldn't have been allowed to covered by the press until their trials were completed by this logic b/c doing so could interfere with the bias of potential jurors. That simply is not a position I agree with.

Shining a light on something isn't how you put an end to it. You catch the offenders and put them in jail. That's how you put an end to it.
Who gives a **** if we have to wait a while to hear about Bill Cosby's crimes? If the offenders are on trial then the crime isn't being committed anymore. Again...What does it matter if you hear about it now or if it's a little down the road?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:24 am

Buc2 wrote:I think Delt is trying to lock one of us into saying the UK was wrong to arrest that reporter based on THEIR laws.
I will not allow myself to be backed into that ridiculous corner.


If that is the case I think it's missing the bigger and much more important issue and why this story is making news. I'm sure the UK police was acting IAW with whatever interpretation of their laws and didn't arrest TR unlawfully. I don't think anyone here was making that argument either.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby deltbucs » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:29 am

Buc2 wrote:I think Delt is trying to lock one of us into saying the UK was wrong to arrest that reporter based on THEIR laws.
I will not allow myself to be backed into that ridiculous corner.

That's right. You stand up for yourself, champ!
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:30 am

deltbucs wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Underage girls are being kidnapped and raped. It should be reported on regardless of whatever trial(s) are occurring. Shining a light (in the form of coverage) on things like this is how you put an end to it. It's one of the big reasons press freedom is such an important freedom and covered in the very first amendment of the US Constitution.

It seems like a pretty cut and dry issue for me.

I think where TR got himself in trouble legally might have been not so much that he covered the issue, but how and who he covered specifically.

It seems like the alleged crimes of people like Harvey Weinstein or Bill Cosby shouldn't have been allowed to covered by the press until their trials were completed by this logic b/c doing so could interfere with the bias of potential jurors. That simply is not a position I agree with.

Shining a light on something isn't how you put an end to it. You catch the offenders and put them in jail. That's how you put an end to it.
Who gives a **** if we have to wait a while to hear about Bill Cosby's crimes? If the offenders are on trial then the crime isn't being committed anymore. Again...What does it matter if you hear about it now or if it's a little down the road?


Because the people on trial aren't the only ones doing it delt. So how does waiting help protect he next potential victim or deter the next person from committing this act?

I completely disagree that press coverage doesn't aid in putting an end to issues (I never stated it was the only way). One of the main jobs of the press is to bring awareness to issues in society so people can bring about change.

Take police violence for example. Are you saying the media shouldn't be able to report on police shootings until the investigations and potential trials are completed so that future jurors aren't persuaded one way or another before the trial?

Are we doing it wrong in America and should we adopt this UK policy?
Last edited by DreadNaught on Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby RedLeader » Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:31 am

deltbucs wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
My issue is with penchant to side with big brother in free speech matters like these in western society. It's dangerous imo.

I'm not disputing or upset that TR broke the law. He violated what he judge had instructed and is paying the price. My issue is the lack of free speech protection from the government occurring here and how that could manifest in America in the future.

I know we talk alot about free speech in this country and it gets conflated to align w/ specific narratives (see NFL protests). But the thing I believe we all (should) agree on is that Free Speech should be protect individuals, and especially the press from 'the state' fining or imprisoning them. That doesn't seem to be the case in this situation w/ TR and that is the angle I'm viewing it from.

I don't care if it's some white guy like TR covering rape/grooming gangs, or some POC investigating neo-Nazis. They stories should be allowed to be covered regardless of the narratives.

The fact is that these grooming gangs are an under reported issue in the UK. When muslim reformers mention them it's ignored in the MSM, and when a non-muslin covers them he's met with -phobia tags and government intervention.

Again...The media is allowed to report on it. They just had to wait until the trial was over..


You keep saying this like its true. However, if they deem that the reporting of a judgement could affect jurors on other existing, ongoing cases, they can shut it down as well.

Not that i think thats even a real good point on your end, just got tired of seeing you say it like it was.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby deltbucs » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:07 am

DreadNaught wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Shining a light on something isn't how you put an end to it. You catch the offenders and put them in jail. That's how you put an end to it.
Who gives a **** if we have to wait a while to hear about Bill Cosby's crimes? If the offenders are on trial then the crime isn't being committed anymore. Again...What does it matter if you hear about it now or if it's a little down the road?


Because the people on trial aren't the only ones doing it delt. So how does waiting help protect he next potential victim or deter the next person from committing this act?

I completely disagree that press coverage doesn't aid in putting an end to issues (I never stated it was the only way). One of the main jobs of the press is to bring awareness to issues in society so people can bring about change.

Take police violence for example. Are you saying the media shouldn't be able to report on police shootings until the investigations and potential trials are completed so that future jurors aren't persuaded one way or another before the trial?

Are we doing it wrong in America and should we adopt this UK policy?

I'm not necessarily saying that we're doing it wrong. I just don't think that it's that crazy of a policy and I'm not sure why you guys are so upset about this policy in another country. You are acting like it's in place to violate civil rights as opposed to protect them (I'm assuming because that's what you're told to think).
And you said, "Shining a light (in the form of coverage) on things like this is how you put an end to it. So you didn't literally say it's the only way, but I'm not going to getting into a bootz-like argument with you.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby deltbucs » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:08 am

RedLeader wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Again...The media is allowed to report on it. They just had to wait until the trial was over..


You keep saying this like its true. However, if they deem that the reporting of a judgement could affect jurors on other existing, ongoing cases, they can shut it down as well.

Not that i think thats even a real good point on your end, just got tired of seeing you say it like it was.

Umm...ok...put an "S" at the end of the word "trial" if it makes you feel better.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby RedLeader » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:22 am

deltbucs wrote:
RedLeader wrote:
You keep saying this like its true. However, if they deem that the reporting of a judgement could affect jurors on other existing, ongoing cases, they can shut it down as well.

Not that i think thats even a real good point on your end, just got tired of seeing you say it like it was.

Umm...ok...put an "S" at the end of the word "trial" if it makes you feel better.


Lol. Ya, id say thats a minor distinction, wouldnt you?

Just didn't want you to continue looking like a fool on the point... Although, you're making it tough overall.







But by all means, carry on.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:36 am

deltbucs wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Because the people on trial aren't the only ones doing it delt. So how does waiting help protect he next potential victim or deter the next person from committing this act?

I completely disagree that press coverage doesn't aid in putting an end to issues (I never stated it was the only way). One of the main jobs of the press is to bring awareness to issues in society so people can bring about change.

Take police violence for example. Are you saying the media shouldn't be able to report on police shootings until the investigations and potential trials are completed so that future jurors aren't persuaded one way or another before the trial?

Are we doing it wrong in America and should we adopt this UK policy?

I'm not necessarily saying that we're doing it wrong. I just don't think that it's that crazy of a policy and I'm not sure why you guys are so upset about this policy in another country. You are acting like it's in place to violate civil rights as opposed to protect them (I'm assuming because that's what you're told to think).
And you said, "Shining a light (in the form of coverage) on things like this is how you put an end to it. So you didn't literally say it's the only way, but I'm not going to getting into a bootz-like argument with you.

Who's upset?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:45 am

deltbucs wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Because the people on trial aren't the only ones doing it delt. So how does waiting help protect he next potential victim or deter the next person from committing this act?

I completely disagree that press coverage doesn't aid in putting an end to issues (I never stated it was the only way). One of the main jobs of the press is to bring awareness to issues in society so people can bring about change.

Take police violence for example. Are you saying the media shouldn't be able to report on police shootings until the investigations and potential trials are completed so that future jurors aren't persuaded one way or another before the trial?

Are we doing it wrong in America and should we adopt this UK policy?

I'm not necessarily saying that we're doing it wrong. I just don't think that it's that crazy of a policy and I'm not sure why you guys are so upset about this policy in another country. You are acting like it's in place to violate civil rights as opposed to protect them (I'm assuming because that's what you're told to think).
And you said, "Shining a light (in the form of coverage) on things like this is how you put an end to it. So you didn't literally say it's the only way, but I'm not going to getting into a bootz-like argument with you.


I'm not upset at all. I believe you were the one who requested a follow up response from some people here.

I suppose I don't agree that TR covering this issue is a violation of the accused's civil rights even if that is how that UK law is interpreted. That surely isn't the case in this country.

My point was never about he UK laws either way, and it seems that isn't the case with you so there in lies the disconnect perhaps. I just beleive from a freedom of the press perspective the UK has this wrong for the reasons I've stated.

I still love you. :D
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:45 am

Buc2 wrote:
deltbucs wrote:I'm not necessarily saying that we're doing it wrong. I just don't think that it's that crazy of a policy and I'm not sure why you guys are so upset about this policy in another country. You are acting like it's in place to violate civil rights as opposed to protect them (I'm assuming because that's what you're told to think).
And you said, "Shining a light (in the form of coverage) on things like this is how you put an end to it. So you didn't literally say it's the only way, but I'm not going to getting into a bootz-like argument with you.

Who's upset?

I'm not upset, you're upset!! :teeth:
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:51 am

DreadNaught wrote:
deltbucs wrote:I'm not necessarily saying that we're doing it wrong. I just don't think that it's that crazy of a policy and I'm not sure why you guys are so upset about this policy in another country. You are acting like it's in place to violate civil rights as opposed to protect them (I'm assuming because that's what you're told to think).
And you said, "Shining a light (in the form of coverage) on things like this is how you put an end to it. So you didn't literally say it's the only way, but I'm not going to getting into a bootz-like argument with you.


I'm not upset at all. I believe you were the one who requested a follow up response from some people here.

I suppose I don't agree that TR covering this issue is a violation of the accused's civil rights even if that is how that UK law is interpreted. That surely isn't the case in this country.

My point was never about he UK laws either way, and it seems that isn't the case with you so there in lies the disconnect perhaps. I just beleive from a freedom of the press perspective the UK has this wrong for the reasons I've stated.

I still love you. :D
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby deltbucs » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:58 am

DreadNaught wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Who's upset?

I'm not upset, you're upset!! :teeth:

Your mom goes to college!
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:00 pm

deltbucs wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:I'm not upset, you're upset!! :teeth:

Your mom goes to college!

She's waiting on Bernie so it will be free!!!
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby deltbucs » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:45 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Your mom goes to college!

She's waiting on Bernie so it will be free!!!

Nice
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby MJW » Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:22 am

deltbucs wrote:
MJW wrote:
This is the wrong question. The question is not whether or not someone who breaks the law is going to be arrested, or whether or not it should matter to us that he already knew he'd be arrested. The question is if this law is a just one. It's a reasonable question. I don't think this law was conceived from an ideological place, even if the response to it is ideological. But that doesn't mean ideological questions shouldn't be asked.

It's the wrong question because you don't like it.


I don't like it because it's banal.

"Well, he knew he'd get arrested again, so it's his own fault!" is a **** talking point. Or am I misinterpreting you?
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