The Fourth Estate

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The Fourth Estate

Postby Corsair » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:02 pm

I wanted to create a space for people to talk about the importance (or not, depending on your view) of the Fourth Estate i.e. a free press. This subject has been getting bigger and bigger and I wanted to centralize the discussion for the ease of following its evolution.

In my opinion here's been an growing effort by the President to discredit the press. In his mind, unfavorable coverage is described as "dishonest", which works to destroy the credibility of the press. Granted, there have been mistakes printed and retracted by the most respected news sources, and they take their lumps for publishing those mistakes. And the more reputable sources print retractions, showing that credibility is still the defining goal of the press. And the coverage has been honest for the most part, the only discrepancy being the amount of air time Trump gets from the broadcast outlets. And it could be argued that Trump contributes to this "elephant in the room" coverage on his own. I believe there is a chasm in definition of "dishonest reporting" when there isn't a "malicious intent to mislead". These news organizations still operate under the basics of journalism and ethics. There are less than stellar examples of this out there, but to discredit the press as a whole is a dangerous proposition.

I'd like to see a discussion about what "dishonest" media really means, and how it applies today.

I'd also like to contribute articles that pertain to the effort to discredit our free press, and what impact that could have on the freedoms of all of us. And how this discrediting of the press is not a new phenomenon, and neither are its consequences. Sometimes there is news about this subject (kinda meta, I know) and I'd like to share those here.

On the positive side, I think there may be something to be learned from where we are. I've learned to vet my own sourcing more stringently, and therefore strengthened my own BS meter. I find myself using who.is and other tools to define outlets who are new to me or suspect of "dishonesty" or "intent to mislead". I'm afraid that some people have retreated from the big press outlets because of the attacks from the President, and instead they have gone to even less reputable sourcing because it agrees with their bias.

I think it's also important to delineate the worlds of investigative reporting and the editorial pages.

What say you?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby beardmcdoug » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:07 pm

Good thread, good post. This should be an interesting one
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Selmon Rules » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:20 pm

I'm to the point where I find it hard to believe any news outlet anymore. They all have to cater to someone's agenda to gain either ratings, subscription sales, or "hits" on their site.

I want Cronkite back!!!!
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:21 pm

The issues that most have with the "press" are opinions. On every channel, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, they make their money by garnering interest and stirring the pot. The media is dishonest if you want to call those sources "news", they aren't they aren't much more than fiction. They take many things, often without evidence, and talk about them for hours. Many see these channels as "news" and say "fake news", but in reality it's just some random girl/guy spouting their opinions about theories/conjecture. This has gotten progressively worse since W. for both sides. Most of the big "news" channels don't show much news, them saying that Trump/Obama are days away from impeachment is in essence fake news, but also it's just their opinions...it's generating revenue. Fox and MSNBC have always done this, but CNN went head first starting with the Democratic primary. CNN's channel is now just as bad as Fox/MSNBC, but I can't blame them...their ratings are at all time highs. They doubled previous records during the campaign and at the end of the day, their goal is to make money, not report honest news.


The real problem is the individuals using these sources as news. I read CNN because I like their mobile webpage, but when I want real news I use NPR(which is slightly liberal) and allsides.

To your original point regarding the President and the press. He's playing to the popular opinion. Less people trust the "press" than ever, but really less people know where to find real "press" than ever.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Rocker » Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:23 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:The issues that most have with the "press" are opinions. On every channel, CNN, Fox, MSNBC, they make their money by garnering interest and stirring the pot. The media is dishonest if you want to call those sources "news", they aren't they aren't much more than fiction. They take many things, often without evidence, and talk about them for hours. Many see these channels as "news" and say "fake news", but in reality it's just some random girl/guy spouting their opinions about theories/conjecture. This has gotten progressively worse since W. for both sides. Most of the big "news" channels don't show much news, them saying that Trump/Obama are days away from impeachment is in essence fake news, but also it's just their opinions...it's generating revenue. Fox and MSNBC have always done this, but CNN went head first starting with the Democratic primary. CNN's channel is now just as bad as Fox/MSNBC, but I can't blame them...their ratings are at all time highs. They doubled previous records during the campaign and at the end of the day, their goal is to make money, not report honest news.


The real problem is the individuals using these sources as news. I read CNN because I like their mobile webpage, but when I want real news I use NPR(which is slightly liberal) and allsides.

To your original point regarding the President and the press. He's playing to the popular opinion. Less people trust the "press" than ever, but really less people know where to find real "press" than ever.


Solid take.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Ken Carson » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:18 pm

I think everyone here should watch Nobody Speak: Trials of the Free Press. I recently watched it and would love to use it at a common source to discuss. I'll save my comments until others have had a chance to watch.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Corsair » Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:58 pm

Ken Carson wrote:I think everyone here should watch Nobody Speak: Trials of the Free Press. I recently watched it and would love to use it at a common source to discuss. I'll save my comments until others have had a chance to watch.

Netflix or similar?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby MJW » Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:36 pm

Corsair wrote:In my opinion here's been an growing effort by the President to discredit the press. In his mind, unfavorable coverage is described as "dishonest", which works to destroy the credibility of the press. Granted, there have been mistakes printed and retracted by the most respected news sources, and they take their lumps for publishing those mistakes. And the more reputable sources print retractions, showing that credibility is still the defining goal of the press. And the coverage has been honest for the most part, the only discrepancy being the amount of air time Trump gets from the broadcast outlets. And it could be argued that Trump contributes to this "elephant in the room" coverage on his own. I believe there is a chasm in definition of "dishonest reporting" when there isn't a "malicious intent to mislead". These news organizations still operate under the basics of journalism and ethics. There are less than stellar examples of this out there, but to discredit the press as a whole is a dangerous proposition.


A few points on this paragraph:

POTUS trying to discredit the press didn't start in January. Trump gave his efforts a catchy slogan, but I'm fairly sure Obama frequently implied Fox News was playing an angle instead of reporting the truth. Bush refused to read critical news sources. The Clintons coined a "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" which included unfavorable coverage. So on and so forth. That's what politicians do - if they can't argue the facts, they try to discredit the sources. It's nothing new. And Trump crying, "Fake News!" isn't moving the needle for anyone. Nobody with a favorable view of the press in this country was Pro-Trump in the first place, and vice-versa.

As for the rest of it, holy ****, really? The press's driving goal is credibility? Can I buy pot from you? Bias doesn't just color the press, it defines the press, be it CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, the alphabet networks, talk radio, the AP, PBS, WaPo, etc. I don't even consider that a controversial statement at this point. You go to CNN for your news if you want to get angry about Trump and the GOP. You go to Fox if you want to feel better about them, etc. You go to both sides if you're hoping to collect enough material to form something resembling an informed opinion, I guess.

Here's the thing about journalism ethics - they don't seem to apply anymore if the press is simply helping the viewer or reading reach the "correct" conclusions. Is it unethical to publish a story that informs people about injustice? Most would say that's why journalism exists. Okay, what if the story makes little effort to present both sides of the injustice? Well, how can there be two sides to an injustice, right? What if the story is designed to encourage a change to that injustice? Is that unethical? At one time, I think most would have said yes. But if you go to a J-School now, the reason kids want to be journalists is so they CAN change the world. Maybe once upon a time, that was accomplished through informing and trusting the reader to use the information wisely. But in 2017? Can't take that chance. People are too stupid.

As for the threat Trump presents to the press, he has a lot of work to do to catch Obama. This bothers me more than Trump body-slamming a CNN logo.
http://theblacksphere.net/2017/02/media ... urnalists/

Besides which, I think the left spent the, "Chilling Effect" nickel under Dubya, when we heard nonstop about how POTUS was going to silence dissent and the press. We heard about it on the news for eight years. We heard about it in papers. On websites. On TV Shirts. In movies. In plays. In rock videos. In commencement speeches. On billboards. On blimps. On signs declaring he was Hitler. Yep, brrrr. Chilly. Much oppression.

Finally, if a free press is endangered, it won't be Trump that did it. Some will say it was their commitment to their ideology. Some will say it was their commitment to profit over truth. Some will say there are simply too many alternative news sources available for the lumbering media dinosaur to survive. I think these are all factors. The President informing people who supported him through his disgusting behavior not to listen to the folks who reported his disgusting behavior isn't going to do it.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Corsair » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:14 am

Ken Carson wrote:I think everyone here should watch Nobody Speak: Trials of the Free Press. I recently watched it and would love to use it at a common source to discuss. I'll save my comments until others have had a chance to watch.

Found it on Netflix, really well done.

I found it the tale of two Documentaries, but made points on both the Terry/Hulk vs Gawker theme but then enlightened a little on the current political stage of news and journalism. I'm happy to have seen it, and the last twenty or so minutes falls in line with what I feel is happening and my views.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby sanka » Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:17 am

I haven't watch the news since election night...Trump this Trump that.

I watch the real news network like Al Jazeera, Bbc, sky news...you know network that actually covers news....leave all those trump **** to young turks and rest of the dweebs on the internet.
Even late night is Trump this trump that...all for ratings...at a point it will tire out....the only good comedy show out there is the Daily show with Trevor Noah and Last week with John Oliver.
"History is a set of lies agreed upon." - Napoleon
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Buc2 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:35 am

Ken Carson wrote:I think everyone here should watch Nobody Speak: Trials of the Free Press. I recently watched it and would love to use it at a common source to discuss. I'll save my comments until others have had a chance to watch.

Since Corsair loved it, that means it has a decided liberal slant, so I'll pass.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Ken Carson » Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:52 am

Buc2 wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I think everyone here should watch Nobody Speak: Trials of the Free Press. I recently watched it and would love to use it at a common source to discuss. I'll save my comments until others have had a chance to watch.

Since Corsair loved it, that means it has a decided liberal slant, so I'll pass.

What does it mean that I was the one who suggested it?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Buc2 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:41 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Since Corsair loved it, that means it has a decided liberal slant, so I'll pass.

What does it mean that I was the one who suggested it?

I have no idea. I was making a joke which I felt would be funnier if I used our local alt-Lefty instead of a lite-Lefty such as yourself.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:45 pm

I watched it about 2 weeks ago along with the Ice-T narrated one on the second amendment and Inside Job.

I thought Nobody Speak was typical slanted garbage.


The good:

1.) it exposed that, at least partially, Hogan's lawsuit stemmed from Thiel's vindictiveness from a trash article that Gawker published about his homosexuality.
2.) it showed the length that Alderson went to in order to hide the purchase he made of the Las Vegas paper.


The bad:

1.) It's overall view point is "poor poor media" being controlled and abused by evil billionaires. Billionaires doing all they can to purchase and silence media. A media that is largely faultless and blameless and basically purely good. (there wasn't a single real criticism of the media throughout the documentary). Well guess what -- most of the large media houses are owned by Billionaires that do exactly the same thing -- they use their vast resources to silence their critics and defend themselves against libel lawsuits.

2.) Most of the modern media houses, worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, are clearly more concerned about profit then they are truth....just look at CNN lately...or Fox ... or any of them. Every media outlet is completely biased and does everything they can to cater to that bias.

3.) It portrays journalists as people that always stand on their principles (particularly the Vegas newspaper). I think this is a complete exaggerations. Most of the folks at Fox (and its related subsidies) manipulate stories to cater to righties...most at CNN/MSNBC/etc manipulate stories to cater to lefties. Journalists know this...they don't take a stand against it. You think Rachel Maddow has ever said...I can't read this...it's stretching the truth? Or O'Reilly? Or that twat Brooks at the NYT?

4.) Simply portraying gawker as a "news" source is ridiculous. they are pretty much on level with the Grocery store garbage mags.


All in all, like so many things these days...they got 1/2 the story right. They conveniently hid the rest of it.


With very few exceptions the Journalism they were talking about hasn't existed for decades in America.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby PrimeMinister » Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:40 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I watched it about 2 weeks ago along with the Ice-T narrated one on the second amendment and Inside Job.

I thought Nobody Speak was typical slanted garbage.


The good:

1.) it exposed that, at least partially, Hogan's lawsuit stemmed from Thiel's vindictiveness from a trash article that Gawker published about his homosexuality.
2.) it showed the length that Alderson went to in order to hide the purchase he made of the Las Vegas paper.


The bad:

1.) It's overall view point is "poor poor media" being controlled and abused by evil billionaires. Billionaires doing all they can to purchase and silence media. A media that is largely faultless and blameless and basically purely good. (there wasn't a single real criticism of the media throughout the documentary). Well guess what -- most of the large media houses are owned by Billionaires that do exactly the same thing -- they use their vast resources to silence their critics and defend themselves against libel lawsuits.

2.) Most of the modern media houses, worth hundreds of millions or billions of dollars, are clearly more concerned about profit then they are truth....just look at CNN lately...or Fox ... or any of them. Every media outlet is completely biased and does everything they can to cater to that bias.

3.) It portrays journalists as people that always stand on their principles (particularly the Vegas newspaper). I think this is a complete exaggerations. Most of the folks at Fox (and its related subsidies) manipulate stories to cater to righties...most at CNN/MSNBC/etc manipulate stories to cater to lefties. Journalists know this...they don't take a stand against it. You think Rachel Maddow has ever said...I can't read this...it's stretching the truth? Or O'Reilly? Or that twat Brooks at the NYT?

4.) Simply portraying gawker as a "news" source is ridiculous. they are pretty much on level with the Grocery store garbage mags.


All in all, like so many things these days...they got 1/2 the story right. They conveniently hid the rest of it.


With very few exceptions the Journalism they were talking about hasn't existed for decades in America.


I haven't watched the documentary yet, but A+ post on the state of media.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Brazen331 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:47 pm

If you haven't watched Manufacturing Consent I would highly recommend that. It is a shame that the most brilliant linguist on the planet wastes so much time with Radicalism when he could be making more contributions to his field.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby PrimeMinister » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:00 pm

Brazen331 wrote:If you haven't watched Manufacturing Consent I would highly recommend that. It is a shame that the most brilliant linguist on the planet wastes so much time with Radicalism when he could be making more contributions to his field.


Thanks for the recommendation
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:03 pm

In other political news! Corsair still refuses to tell mdb if he is a US citizen...
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Buc2 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:52 pm

mdb1958 wrote:In other political news! Corsair still refuses to tell mdb if he is a US citizen...

If you have to be told...
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby bucfanclw » Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:42 pm

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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Corsair » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:19 pm

mdb1958 wrote:In other political news! Corsair still refuses to tell mdb if he is a US citizen...

WTF

LMAO
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby SDBucs » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:50 pm

It portrays journalists as people that always stand on their principles (particularly the Vegas newspaper). I think this is a complete exaggerations. Most of the folks at Fox (and its related subsidies) manipulate stories to cater to righties...most at CNN/MSNBC/etc manipulate stories to cater to lefties. Journalists know this...they don't take a stand against it. You think Rachel Maddow has ever said...I can't read this...it's stretching the truth? Or O'Reilly? Or that twat Brooks at the NYT?


The issue, why we have Trump doing what he's doing, is that society had been convinced of Fox's right wing bias, but most saw/see the rest as center/neutral news.

We have/had guys like Colbert, Stewart, etc. constantly shining a light on Fox/any right wing bias. Of people with that kind of viewership, who shines light on the comedians? Or other stations? We had Obama frequently belittling Fox. You turn on a popular show like House of Cards and what's the news source? CNN. You go to the airport and what's on tv? CNN. You go see a movie and what news station is reporting in the movie? CNN. If you're putting on the news for a group of people don't you dare put on Fox, it's biased we all know it, put on CNN. Nearly everything in our society, whether direct or indirect, made/makes it clear that Fox is biased and pushes to make it seem that stations like CNN are THE neutral news sources.

Talk to people who don't follow politics and they all know Fox is right wing and that's about it. CNN is neutral.

There is finally significant noise in society saying otherwise, thank god for Trump.
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby mdb1958 » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:36 pm

What does this mdb mean by "brainwashed"?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby HamBone » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:14 pm

mdb1958 wrote:What does this mdb mean by "brainwashed"?


I thought you would know...no?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby SDBucs » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:32 pm

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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby SDBucs » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:35 pm

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Personal favorite lmao
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Zarniwoop » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:11 pm

Ha!
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby bucfanclw » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:17 pm

Yeah, reading past the headlines is pretty pointless, amiright? I mean, who cares about nuance?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby Zarniwoop » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:20 pm

bucfanclw wrote: I mean, who cares about nuance?



Are you new to the board?
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Re: The Fourth Estate

Postby deltbucs » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:23 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I watched it about 2 weeks ago along with the Ice-T narrated one on the second amendment and Inside Job.

After watching Inside Job, are you a fan of Trump rolling back the regulations put in place to prevent it from happening again?
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