Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:25 am

bucfanclw wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
Yup. This is the point I've been making all along. This is doing nothing but opening up a can of worms. I personally think they are right to pursue a censure in this, but this doesn't rise to Impeachment, at least the way the Founding Fathers meant for it to be. There's too much "Well, I heard this and I am presuming that" here. Even Andrew Yang said he thinks the country should just move on.

If Dems win the WH and Pubs take the House, we'll be going through impeachment again within the next four years.

Just like W and Obama were impeached after the stage was set with Clinton being impeached over lying about cheating on his wife, right?


Clinton lied unde oath and tried to cover it up with payments. I thought that was censure-worthy like this one, but nit impeachment worthy.

Bush lied about WMDs but that didn’t come out until after his Presidency.

Reagan was found to be directly involved in Iran Contra.

Any Pres can be impeached if yoU have the right players, and Schiff and Pelosi hate Trump enough to want it.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:27 am

bucfanclw wrote:Trump on Fox and Friends this morning says he wants a trial, but this is not an impeachment.

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He wants a trial because Republicans have subpoena power and they will put up Schiff and the WB. Schiff has been blocking their requests in the House.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:30 am

I think the reports that will come out now that the DOJ isnt totally one sided will be bigger than this soap opera. It's also amusing when I hear how everyone's political views are different in Buczone but there isnt much talk on this now that the total Dem power has been removed from the DOJ.

It is possible big things are coming.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:31 am

NavyBuc wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Just like W and Obama were impeached after the stage was set with Clinton being impeached over lying about cheating on his wife, right?


Clinton lied unde oath and tried to cover it up with payments. I thought that was censure-worthy like this one, but nit impeachment worthy.

Bush lied about WMDs but that didn’t come out until after his Presidency.

Reagan was found to be directly involved in Iran Contra.

Any Pres can be impeached if yoU have the right players, and Schiff and Pelosi hate Trump enough to want it.

Right, so my point is that making the statement that every POTUS from here on out will be impeached because of the precedent that this sets is just throwing out a slippery slope fallacy as a scare tactic. There's simply no grounds to such an accusation.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby mdb1958 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:37 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Just want to say that all of you that voted for Donald Trump, love the idea of what he could do, and are frustrated right now. Y'all are the most loyal mofo's of all time. The investment in his defense, the fighting over every last detail, the insistence on the burden of proof...

...off the scale. Trump doesn't deserve you.



Wait on the report
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Brazen331 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:50 am

NavyBuc wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Trump on Fox and Friends this morning says he wants a trial, but this is not an impeachment.

Image


He wants a trial because Republicans have subpoena power and they will put up Schiff and the WB. Schiff has been blocking their requests in the House.


Unfortunately, I doubt the Senate will subpoena Schiff.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 22, 2019 10:58 am

Brazen331 wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
He wants a trial because Republicans have subpoena power and they will put up Schiff and the WB. Schiff has been blocking their requests in the House.


Unfortunately, I doubt the Senate will subpoena Schiff.

Why not? You guys seem to think it's a slam dunk case against him. Get it done! The Senate absolutely should subpoena him if they feel it would have bearing on their case.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:00 am

bucfanclw wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
Clinton lied unde oath and tried to cover it up with payments. I thought that was censure-worthy like this one, but nit impeachment worthy.

Bush lied about WMDs but that didn’t come out until after his Presidency.

Reagan was found to be directly involved in Iran Contra.

Any Pres can be impeached if yoU have the right players, and Schiff and Pelosi hate Trump enough to want it.

Right, so my point is that making the statement that every POTUS from here on out will be impeached because of the precedent that this sets is just throwing out a slippery slope fallacy as a scare tactic. There's simply no grounds to such an accusation.


I never said EVERY President moving forward will be impeached. I said it will just be more common in the future. And if Biden gets in and the Pubs have the House, we will be going through this all over again.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:26 am

NavyBuc wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Right, so my point is that making the statement that every POTUS from here on out will be impeached because of the precedent that this sets is just throwing out a slippery slope fallacy as a scare tactic. There's simply no grounds to such an accusation.


I never said EVERY President moving forward will be impeached. I said it will just be more common in the future. And if Biden gets in and the Pubs have the House, we will be going through this all over again.


I don't think there is any question that this "lowers the bar" for future impeachment proceedings...that coupled with no one in DC being able to act like an adult and I think it will indeed become more common.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:36 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
I never said EVERY President moving forward will be impeached. I said it will just be more common in the future. And if Biden gets in and the Pubs have the House, we will be going through this all over again.


I don't think there is any question that this "lowers the bar" for future impeachment proceedings...that coupled with no one in DC being able to act like an adult and I think it will indeed become more common.

How is the bar of withholding military aid until public announcement of a political investigation of an opponent a lower bar than lying about cheating on wife?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:40 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
I don't think there is any question that this "lowers the bar" for future impeachment proceedings...that coupled with no one in DC being able to act like an adult and I think it will indeed become more common.

How is the bar of withholding military aid until public announcement of a political investigation of an opponent a lower bar than lying about cheating on wife?



I've made my point on this very clear. The process which Trump used was wrong but I don't think its impeachable. Every single request we make to a weak state that relies on us for protection is basically a quid pro quo request - whether it is formally stated or not -- that is the reality of it (Buc 2 and I have posts on this). Trump just did it the wrong way. That's why I don't think it's impeachable.

It lowers the bar because every President does stuff like this. They have in the past and will in the future. If this is the new standard it means every president should basically sit through these hearings.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:40 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
I never said EVERY President moving forward will be impeached. I said it will just be more common in the future. And if Biden gets in and the Pubs have the House, we will be going through this all over again.


I don't think there is any question that this "lowers the bar" for future impeachment proceedings...that coupled with no one in DC being able to act like an adult and I think it will indeed become more common.

Agree. I think it started with Bill and is continuing here. I think if Bush serves for two more years it would have happened to him. The Dems didn’t get the House until 2006 and the WMD stuff didn’t come out until around 08 when it showed the Admin embelleshed on intel.

I thought Rep. Hurd had the best statesment yesterday and it hit right in the middle of where Dems and Pubs stand and where Mainstream America is with this. What Trumo did wasn’t right and was wrong....but there still is a lot of ambiguity here and this doesn’t meet the high crime standard.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:48 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Brazen331 wrote:
Unfortunately, I doubt the Senate will subpoena Schiff.

Why not? You guys seem to think it's a slam dunk case against him. Get it done! The Senate absolutely should subpoena him if they feel it would have bearing on their case.

Question...do you honestly believe Schiff when he says he has no idea who the WB is and never contacted him?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:50 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
I don't think there is any question that this "lowers the bar" for future impeachment proceedings...that coupled with no one in DC being able to act like an adult and I think it will indeed become more common.

How is the bar of withholding military aid until public announcement of a political investigation of an opponent a lower bar than lying about cheating on wife?


For the gazillionth time....Clinton lied under oath and went to great length to cover up the affair with payments. It went deeper than cheating on his wife. Jesus. But I do agree like with this it should be a Censure not Impeachment.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:50 am

NavyBuc wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Why not? You guys seem to think it's a slam dunk case against him. Get it done! The Senate absolutely should subpoena him if they feel it would have bearing on their case.

Question...do you honestly believe Schiff when he says he has no idea who the WB is and never contacted him?

I'd like to see proof one way or the other, despite its irrelivance to the investigation, so why wouldn't the Senate subpoena him?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:53 am

bucfanclw wrote:I'd like to see proof one way or the other

:P :lol: :P :lol:

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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:54 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:How is the bar of withholding military aid until public announcement of a political investigation of an opponent a lower bar than lying about cheating on wife?



I've made my point on this very clear. The process which Trump used was wrong but I don't think its impeachable. Every single request we make to a weak state that relies on us for protection is basically a quid pro quo request - whether it is formally stated or not -- that is the reality of it (Buc 2 and I have posts on this). Trump just did it the wrong way. That's why I don't think it's impeachable.

It lowers the bar because every President does stuff like this. They have in the past and will in the future. If this is the new standard it means every president should basically sit through these hearings.

I guess I just disagree since the aid was agreed to in 2017 but we attempted to renege purely for personal political gain. I think that really hurts our ability to negotiate in the future. That seems like a big deal to me.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 22, 2019 11:56 am

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I'd like to see proof one way or the other

:P :lol: :P :lol:

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I'm sure you feel like you got me there. Lol
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby NavyBuc » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:00 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:Question...do you honestly believe Schiff when he says he has no idea who the WB is and never contacted him?

I'd like to see proof one way or the other, despite its irrelivance to the investigation, so why wouldn't the Senate subpoena him?

Because if he lies under oath and is found to have contacted/influenced the WB, he could be face legal
Trouble. And he’s scum enough to deserve it.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:05 pm

NavyBuc wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I'd like to see proof one way or the other, despite its irrelivance to the investigation, so why wouldn't the Senate subpoena him?

Because if he lies under oath and is found to have contacted/influenced the WB, he could be face legal
Trouble. And he’s scum enough to deserve it.

That doesn't really sound like a reason to NOT subpoena him to me. Sounds more like it's supporting the case TO subpoena him.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby PanteraCanes » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:47 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
I never said EVERY President moving forward will be impeached. I said it will just be more common in the future. And if Biden gets in and the Pubs have the House, we will be going through this all over again.


I don't think there is any question that this "lowers the bar" for future impeachment proceedings...that coupled with no one in DC being able to act like an adult and I think it will indeed become more common.



It was sad when Tulsi said that when she got to DC the party leaders told her not to talk to any Republicans. Showing we need term limits badly as I am assuming those leaders are in places they would never get voted out of office.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:48 pm

PanteraCanes wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:
I don't think there is any question that this "lowers the bar" for future impeachment proceedings...that coupled with no one in DC being able to act like an adult and I think it will indeed become more common.



It was sad when Tulsi said that when she got to DC the party leaders told her not to talk to any Republicans. Showing we need term limits badly as I am assuming those leaders are in places they would never get voted out of office.



I was never much a fan of term limits ... but I’m coming around on it

:)
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:54 pm

bucfanclw wrote:I'm sure you feel like you got me there. Lol

Just being snarky.

I acknowledge I wouldn't want to see Trump impeached and that goes for any POTUS, but just like with the Mueller thing I'd get behind once the evidence supported it.

My issue with this probe is the same as my issue with Mueller and that we are seeing a lot of manufactured smoke and narratives being created by the Dems and their friendlies in the media. In this case there isn't even something substantial like Russian interference to cloak it around.

I just don't see the evidence that Trump committed an impeachable act. It seems he was poking around a topic that's very sensitive and this is a charade as a response so they he doesn't go there.

There is also the political angle where Dems can continue to keep the cloud/pressure on Trump to keep whatever his administrative agenda from proceeding (USMCA, etc) which is basically the core motivation of the #resistance besides actually getting him out of office.

Anyways, we saw a lot people absolutely convinced Trump was guilty of some kind of collision in that Mueller probe due to all the smoke created. Even right leaning centrists like USCe thought he was guilty of something relating to collusion at one point in time iirc. Yet how did all that end up? Same with Mueller as here, I believe the evidence should stand on it's own. Not that testimony isn't important, but this probe has not produce a witness that can testify they spoke to Trump or and admin official about a crime and instead it's just been hearsay and assumptions made. The one witness that actually did speak with Trump (Sondland) has actually directly opposed the case Schiff is trying to make here.

Yet here we have an entire case based on hearsay, assumptions, and parsed statements from people where 2, 3, and 4 (or more) links away from the call in question (which we have a transcript for that we all agree is accurate).

At the end of the day if their is actual evidence or DIRECT witness testimony I look forward to it being presented.

But if not we have an election in less than a year. If people want him out so bad, let's do it the old fashioned way and vote him out. To me that isn't a partisan stance, but an American one.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:55 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
PanteraCanes wrote:

It was sad when Tulsi said that when she got to DC the party leaders told her not to talk to any Republicans. Showing we need term limits badly as I am assuming those leaders are in places they would never get voted out of office.



I was never much a fan of term limits ... but I’m coming around on it

:)

I love the idea. It definitely moves the needle on my support for a candidate.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Buc2 » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:03 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

I've made my point on this very clear. The process which Trump used was wrong but I don't think its impeachable. Every single request we make to a weak state that relies on us for protection is basically a quid pro quo request - whether it is formally stated or not -- that is the reality of it (Buc 2 and I have posts on this). Trump just did it the wrong way. That's why I don't think it's impeachable.

It lowers the bar because every President does stuff like this. They have in the past and will in the future. If this is the new standard it means every president should basically sit through these hearings.

I guess I just disagree since the aid was agreed to in 2017 but we attempted to renege purely for personal political gain. I think that really hurts our ability to negotiate in the future. That seems like a big deal to me.

It doesn't hurt jack ****. If the US dangles fruit some country wants bad enough, they'll snap it up with no thought to this.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Selmon Rules » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:13 pm

NavyBuc wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Trump on Fox and Friends this morning says he wants a trial, but this is not an impeachment.

Image


He wants a trial because Republicans have subpoena power and they will put up Schiff and the WB. Schiff has been blocking their requests in the House.

Exactly whom do they intend to send the subpoena to in regards to the whistle-blower?? I tried to look him up but got no address in google search....

What exactly would anyone like to ask this whistle-blower anyway?? Everyone knows s/he got all information second-hand and nothing to add to the discussion. Everything that was in whistle-blowers statement has been corroborated by other witnesses. What, exactly do you think he has to add to the conversation??
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:17 pm

Selmon Rules wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
He wants a trial because Republicans have subpoena power and they will put up Schiff and the WB. Schiff has been blocking their requests in the House.

Exactly whom do they intend to send the subpoena to in regards to the whistle-blower?? I tried to look him up but got no address in google search....

What exactly would anyone like to ask this whistle-blower anyway?? Everyone knows s/he got all information second-hand and nothing to add to the discussion. Everything that was in whistle-blowers statement has been corroborated by other witnesses. What, exactly do you think he has to add to the conversation??

His name is Eric Ciaramella iirc.

I'd like him to be asked about his meeting and interactions to establish a timeline of who he met with and what actions he took based on what he thought he believed.

More information is better.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Selmon Rules » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:18 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:How is the bar of withholding military aid until public announcement of a political investigation of an opponent a lower bar than lying about cheating on wife?



I've made my point on this very clear. The process which Trump used was wrong but I don't think its impeachable. Every single request we make to a weak state that relies on us for protection is basically a quid pro quo request - whether it is formally stated or not -- that is the reality of it (Buc 2 and I have posts on this). Trump just did it the wrong way. That's why I don't think it's impeachable.

It lowers the bar because every President does stuff like this. They have in the past and will in the future. If this is the new standard it means every president should basically sit through these hearings.

As to the bolded part of your post, The difference is that those "quid pro quo's" are done for national security and not to dig up dirt on a political rival and to the detriment of national security.

No one denies that we just don't give away money all willy-nilly (at least we shouldn't) but to say that the President should be able to start or stop that aid for a political hit job on a possible rival is just ludicous...
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby HamBone » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:24 pm

A former low-level attorney with the FBI is being accused of altering a document that led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court granting permission to spy on Page. Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz uncovered the document during his investigation into alleged FISA abuse and passed along the information to U.S. Attorney John Durham, who is pursuing a criminal investigation into the origin of the Russia investigation.

Interesting development...if this is true.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby TheChefO » Fri Nov 22, 2019 1:39 pm

HamBone wrote:A former low-level attorney with the FBI is being accused of altering a document that led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act court granting permission to spy on Page. Justice Department Inspector General Michael Horowitz uncovered the document during his investigation into alleged FISA abuse and passed along the information to U.S. Attorney John Durham, who is pursuing a criminal investigation into the origin of the Russia investigation.

Interesting development...if this is true.


And the low level round up begins ... I'll be shocked if any big wigs see anything more than a slap on the wrist for this.
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