Donald Trump vs North Korea

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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Buc2 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:23 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Looks like the House will vote on legislation that addresses families being separated after they are detained for illegally crossing the border.

It's better than nothing, but just kicks the can down the road a small bit. Even if detained families stay together in a detention facility, what happens once the parents are processed? Separate the family by (rightfully) sending the parents back? Let the family into the country illegally while hundreds of thousands wait to immigrate the legal way? Or keep the family together by sending returning them to their country of origin/residence together?
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby mdb1958 » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:23 pm

Case by case if the clients are released while going through the legal system, the lawyers need to be held accountable for their whereabouts.

Instead of them just disappearing.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby beardmcdoug » Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:06 pm

Buc2 wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
I'm not being dense. There are tons of fucked up policies. All of the sudden, this week, there is a shitstorm developing around this one. I'm asking why - did I miss some major event that spurred this off? For example, with the gun control policy, it was school shootings that were the catalyst for it becoming a nationwide dinner table topic. This past week, all of the sudden, seemingly from nowhere, it is kids getting separated at the border... You, as well as I, know that nothing the media does or talks about is by random chance...

Short answer: Liberal soup du jour?

Long answer:
It seems to be SOP for the media to latch onto anything that they can to try and shine Trump in a bad light. When they find something they think they can use, even if it means spinning the truth, they'll beat that drum loud and long to try and work the people into a frothing, riotous mob, replete with rope to hang him. After this current furor dies down, they'll go looking for something else. So desperate they are to see that this man doesn't win a 2nd term. It's become truly pathetic to watch.

This same thing has been happening for years but went unreported or underreported because, well, the media liked the guy sitting in the White House at the time. He was a nice guy you know. So anything he did, he did out of simple necessity and because there was just no other choice. If anything did happen to get reported, instead of saying the children were ripped away from their parents, they'd say they were gently removed from their parents only after agonizing debate and with great regret. Feel my eyes rolling over here yet?

It sucks that these kids' parents were willing to risk their children's very lives to make the dangerous trek to our border with Mexico and then to try and illegally enter the country knowing it was illegal and that they were risking losing their children if they did. If American parents put their children through such risks, they would lose their children as well due to child endangerment laws. Happens every day in fact.

So, while it's sad that these people's lives sucked where they came from and were willing to risk their children's lives to leave, that doesn't give them the right for automatic entry into America. Under the current circumstances, I'm not sure what else our law enforcement can do until the adults have been worked through the legal system.

Here's my recommendation. Illegal parents...stop breaking our laws. Instead, rise up against your governments. Fight for your human rights and to change your own laws. Either that or seek legal entry to another country.

Just as I don't want America to be the World's police, I also don't want America to be the World's bed & breakfast.


Thanks. That's what my suspicion was and that's what it felt like, I just didn't want to jump to conclusions (I've been pretty tuned out from news for the past week for whatever reason).

I agree with your perspective.

Again, I'll post this video again for every "open-borders" liberal or frankly anybody who is interested in making policy decisions based off of objective figures rather than emotional media propaganda pieces:



If you hate the video - please, somebody refute it. The final comment summarizes what we're seeing now with Mexico, and many other nations:

"(with immigration)... we'll never make a noticeable difference.... and we may actually be HURTING the people of the world, because the million that we DO take are among the most energetic, often the most educated, certainly the most dissatisfied, who if they did not immigrate, would be the agents of change, to improve the lot of all the people in these countries. The true heroes in the global humanitarian field are the people who have the wherewithal to immigrate to other countries, but do not, and instead apply their skills to help their fellow countrymen."

"... don't you see? Immigration can never be an effective or significant way to deal with the suffering people of the world. They have to be helped where they live. 99.9% of them will never be able to immigrate to a rich country. There's no hope for that. They have to bloom where they're planted. The only place where 99.9% of [the people that will never be ABLE to immigrate] can be helped, is where they live. Let's help them there."



To not necessarily anyone on this board, but to the stereotypical person who would freak out at that comment: spare me your virtue signalling and wake up to the cruel reality - the incredibly unfair reality - of existence on earth, and understand the nature of the cards that have been dealt to humanity. The suffering, the imbalance - all of it is fundamentally connected to our entire existence as biological creatures jostling for resources and space through time. This is not some new age problem that we'll solve if we spread the love. This is a problem that will ONLY be solved by the ****ing miracle of people looking around at one another and saying "I'm ****ing sick of this ****" and doing exactly what the forefathers of this country did - band together, fight and claw their way towards building a better society around them. It just doesn't *happen*.

You can call me an armchair historian, or say "what do you know about struggle like that" - I don't, personally. Not THAT type. But I'm not so disrespectful to ignore the blood, struggle and ingenuity of millions of humans to just say the result - a better life for their fellow man - was due to anything other than pure effort, sacrifice, and commitment to their fellow man and their peoples' future.

Everybody that sits in a civilized nation in 2018 stands on the back of those that made those sacrifices before your time. Everybody who sits in an uncivilized or downtrodden nation, unfortunately, had the bad luck of being born in a geographical location where such sacrifice occurred so long ago that it's effects are no longer felt, or in a place where they never happened in the first place. And with the power of the internet and all the technology of the modern age, what reason do you have to not be the first to do so in a region? Can you imagine anything more glorious for a group of humans to achieve?
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:04 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Short answer: Liberal soup du jour?

Long answer:
It seems to be SOP for the media to latch onto anything that they can to try and shine Trump in a bad light. When they find something they think they can use, even if it means spinning the truth, they'll beat that drum loud and long to try and work the people into a frothing, riotous mob, replete with rope to hang him. After this current furor dies down, they'll go looking for something else. So desperate they are to see that this man doesn't win a 2nd term. It's become truly pathetic to watch.

This same thing has been happening for years but went unreported or underreported because, well, the media liked the guy sitting in the White House at the time. He was a nice guy you know. So anything he did, he did out of simple necessity and because there was just no other choice. If anything did happen to get reported, instead of saying the children were ripped away from their parents, they'd say they were gently removed from their parents only after agonizing debate and with great regret. Feel my eyes rolling over here yet?

It sucks that these kids' parents were willing to risk their children's very lives to make the dangerous trek to our border with Mexico and then to try and illegally enter the country knowing it was illegal and that they were risking losing their children if they did. If American parents put their children through such risks, they would lose their children as well due to child endangerment laws. Happens every day in fact.

So, while it's sad that these people's lives sucked where they came from and were willing to risk their children's lives to leave, that doesn't give them the right for automatic entry into America. Under the current circumstances, I'm not sure what else our law enforcement can do until the adults have been worked through the legal system.

Here's my recommendation. Illegal parents...stop breaking our laws. Instead, rise up against your governments. Fight for your human rights and to change your own laws. Either that or seek legal entry to another country.

Just as I don't want America to be the World's police, I also don't want America to be the World's bed & breakfast.


Thanks. That's what my suspicion was and that's what it felt like, I just didn't want to jump to conclusions (I've been pretty tuned out from news for the past week for whatever reason).

I agree with your perspective.

Again, I'll post this video again for every "open-borders" liberal or frankly anybody who is interested in making policy decisions based off of objective figures rather than emotional media propaganda pieces:



If you hate the video - please, somebody refute it. The final comment summarizes what we're seeing now with Mexico, and many other nations:

"(with immigration)... we'll never make a noticeable difference.... and we may actually be HURTING the people of the world, because the million that we DO take are among the most energetic, often the most educated, certainly the most dissatisfied, who if they did not immigrate, would be the agents of change, to improve the lot of all the people in these countries. The true heroes in the global humanitarian field are the people who have the wherewithal to immigrate to other countries, but do not, and instead apply their skills to help their fellow countrymen."

"... don't you see? Immigration can never be an effective or significant way to deal with the suffering people of the world. They have to be helped where they live. 99.9% of them will never be able to immigrate to a rich country. There's no hope for that. They have to bloom where they're planted. The only place where 99.9% of [the people that will never be ABLE to immigrate] can be helped, is where they live. Let's help them there."



To not necessarily anyone on this board, but to the stereotypical person who would freak out at that comment: spare me your virtue signalling and wake up to the cruel reality - the incredibly unfair reality - of existence on earth, and understand the nature of the cards that have been dealt to humanity. The suffering, the imbalance - all of it is fundamentally connected to our entire existence as biological creatures jostling for resources and space through time. This is not some new age problem that we'll solve if we spread the love. This is a problem that will ONLY be solved by the ****ing miracle of people looking around at one another and saying "I'm ****ing sick of this ****" and doing exactly what the forefathers of this country did - band together, fight and claw their way towards building a better society around them. It just doesn't *happen*.

You can call me an armchair historian, or say "what do you know about struggle like that" - I don't, personally. Not THAT type. But I'm not so disrespectful to ignore the blood, struggle and ingenuity of millions of humans to just say the result - a better life for their fellow man - was due to anything other than pure effort, sacrifice, and commitment to their fellow man and their peoples' future.

Everybody that sits in a civilized nation in 2018 stands on the back of those that made those sacrifices before your time. Everybody who sits in an uncivilized or downtrodden nation, unfortunately, had the bad luck of being born in a geographical location where such sacrifice occurred so long ago that it's effects are no longer felt, or in a place where they never happened in the first place. And with the power of the internet and all the technology of the modern age, what reason do you have to not be the first to do so in a region? Can you imagine anything more glorious for a group of humans to achieve?

I'm your Huckleberry.


Your last paragraph is absolutely correct. With technology exponentially growing we'll eventually get to the point where a minimum standard of living around the globe will be essentially the same insofar as square foot per person, per dwelling, availability of fresh water/internal plumbing, electricity, availability of food, education, medical care, and entertainment. The problem is is that for all the tech improvements that have been made, extraordinarily large portions of the world population are in absolute poverty. And as you pointed out, lots of people in those circumstances are saying "**** this ****" and going to a place they think will provide them a better life. The solution is obvious. "Raise the global standard of living"

No. I'm not saying the US government should devote vast swaths of money to the third world to end global poverty. That's nuts. But what we can do is proliferate this technology as quickly as possible through other means. I do not pretend to know exactly how to do this, but plenty of silicon valley types are working on this very thing from solar, to biofuel, to low cost water treatment and so on.

This has been going on for quite some time and is getting better all the time. In 1981, it was estimated that 44% of the global population was in extreme poverty and is estimated to be just under 10% today. Illegal immigration peaked around 1999 and has been declining ever since.

Check this out.
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Mexicans are largely staying home these days. Why? Because Mexico has a 1 trillion dollar economy with an unemployment rate of 3.8% Why leave Mexico if you're Mexican?

Now I didn't solve the entire problem for you in 3 easy steps, but it is clear to me that if we want to put an end to these little interment camps and broke Hispanics in the Home Depot parking lot, improving the standard of living in at the very least this hemisphere is a far better answer than a stupid wall.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:06 pm

We should move this discussion to the immigration reform thread.
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