Donald Trump vs North Korea

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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:20 pm

RedLeader wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Kim has bigger hands.

...Not that I'm shocked to learn this.


I guess it's a good thing they're not meeting to thumb wrestle...

Oh, I forgot. They're saving the world through photo ops.

When do I get to accuse Trump of meeting with our enemies and selling us out? Really looking forward to that.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby RedLeader » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:20 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
RedLeader wrote:
I guess it's a good thing they're not meeting to thumb wrestle...

Oh, I forgot. They're saving the world through photo ops.

When do I get to accuse Trump of meeting with our enemies and selling us out? Really looking forward to that.


So bitter. Lol.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:31 pm

RedLeader wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Oh, I forgot. They're saving the world through photo ops.

When do I get to accuse Trump of meeting with our enemies and selling us out? Really looking forward to that.


So bitter. Lol.

Bitter? I'm excited!

This is our best dealmaker. He literally wrote the book on making deals. This deal is going to be so huge it'll make your head spin.

At the rate he's going he can resolve this issue and start fixing another one!
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby RedLeader » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:18 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
RedLeader wrote:
So bitter. Lol.

Bitter? I'm excited!

This is our best dealmaker. He literally wrote the book on making deals. This deal is going to be so huge it'll make your head spin.

At the rate he's going he can resolve this issue and start fixing another one!


As long as we dont come out of there agreeing to hand over a few hundred billion dollars on airplane pallets.. or agree to secretly give them access to our financial system, i’ll call it progress as far as ‘negotiations’ go...
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:37 am

RedLeader wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Bitter? I'm excited!

This is our best dealmaker. He literally wrote the book on making deals. This deal is going to be so huge it'll make your head spin.

At the rate he's going he can resolve this issue and start fixing another one!


As long as we dont come out of there agreeing to hand over a few hundred billion dollars on airplane pallets.. or agree to secretly give them access to our financial system, i’ll call it progress as far as ‘negotiations’ go...


Yup..

Haven't checked the news other then scrolling through Twitter but doesn't seem like anything definitive was done. A 'comprehensive agreement' was signed where the details are vague at this point.

This summit was never going to go as bad as some were hoping, nor was it going to be where Kim signed an I'm sorry pledge and kissed the ring.

Dialogue/diplomacy is a good thing when dealing with adversaries. I'd hope we can all agree on that.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:19 am

Tell that to the media and conservatives. According to them, they wrote the new Magna Carta yesterday.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:34 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Kim has bigger hands.

...Not that I'm shocked to learn this.

Well...fatter for sure.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:37 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Tell that to the media and conservatives. According to them, they wrote the new Magna Carta yesterday.

Hmm...not from the media I've read/watched nor from the conservatives I know. I'm seeing either, cautious optimism, or pessimistic downplaying depending on where I turn. I am not seeing any overt, "WE WON" rhetoric from anybody. Maybe I need to read some far-right sites, eh?
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:22 am

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Tell that to the media and conservatives. According to them, they wrote the new Magna Carta yesterday.

Hmm...not from the media I've read/watched nor from the conservatives I know. I'm seeing either, cautious optimism, or pessimistic downplaying depending on where I turn. I am not seeing any overt, "WE WON" rhetoric from anybody. Maybe I need to read some far-right sites, eh?

You do that already.

Good Morning America lost their **** this morning over how "historic" the whole thing was. My Dad texted me at 5:30 this morning to tell me how historic it was so I'm sure Fox and Friends had a real pessimistic take that downplayed the whole event.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby deltbucs » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:35 am

Easy to see how people get brainwashed....

https://nowthisnews.com/videos/politics ... ting-tense
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:45 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Tell that to the media and conservatives. According to them, they wrote the new Magna Carta yesterday.


Yeah, it certainly wasn't that. I've watched some the interviews and PC's now and (as a conservative) I'm somewhat uneasy with the glowing praise POTUS showed for Kim and the way Trump described Kim and NK isn't a good look without some type of substantial commitment. Let's not forget Kim is a murderous dictator that starves and murders his own citizens, hell he murders his own family members. While denuclearization is great, Kim stated similar platitudes in the 90's just to break those commitments, so everyone knows it's about action and not words. I'm disappointed human rights were not mentioned at any point (I understand not leading with that in peace talks).

I know that had Obama or Clinton had done something similar to what I saw from Trump, the GOP crowd would be skewering them like they did when Obama met with Castro. So I understand the reaction. It is amusing to see the roles and reaction reversed. Kim is like Castro but w/ nukes.

We'll see. I think we should judge this on the actions (or inaction) that result moving forward b/c that will be the true barometer of success or failure. My take is that Trump is playing a game that could be very embarrassing for him and the country by starting with this approach of normalcy w/ Kim.

We still haven't given anything up to NK other than some positive PR for Kim (which isn't great) and we have got our hostages back, NK isn't firing missiles, and some degree of diplomacy is occurring w/ what seems to be good commitment for that to continue. Despite all the rhetoric and commentary that is really what is most important imo. That talks are occurring instead of NK developing their ICBM capabilities and firing rockets over Japan while the International community stands by and wags their finger with sanctions that are ignored and/or don't benefit the 25m enslaved NK citizens.

Trump needs to get actionable commitments where the results can be verified around denuclearization and human rights. Anything short of that makes these talks meaningless and nothing more than good PR for Kim and embarrassing for the US.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:51 am

DreadNaught wrote: Kim is like Castro but w/ nukes.


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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby RedLeader » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:52 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Tell that to the media and conservatives. According to them, they wrote the new Magna Carta yesterday.


Lol. No, not bitter at all...

Seriously though, who gives a ****? Why not see it for what it is, instead of getting so triggered by how others might be reporting it? No question its 'historic', and so it should be reported as such... But I'm not seeing the 'magna carta' level rhetoric you're bitching about..


Say nothing of the fact that it's not just 'conservatives' seeing this as 'historic'. That's just an ignorant statement on your part.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby NavyBuc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 8:54 am

I think Kim will comply, at least for the next 5-10 years, and really de-nuclearize. Reason being their country is in absolute hell. The media doesn't really say this, but the sanctions are destroying them. They have no choice but to comply, especially since China has now started siding more with the U.S. Trump keeps thanking Xi for a reason. China was a big player here.

Now down the road 10-20 years from now, things could turn the other way. But for now, I think things will go well.

Btw, I do think we've had some shitty Secretary of States the last 5 years, but I think Mike Pompeo may be the first good one we've had in quite some time. I know people who know him and have met him that have said this guy has hit **** in gear and is much better than Kerry or Tillerson at the position. Hell, he's basically the President running this Korea operation. Trump just went to shake hands and sign some papers. It's been Pompeo who has done everything.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:02 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote: Kim is like Castro but w/ nukes.


Both are/were brutal totalitarian dictators that starved, oppressed and murdered their own people was my point. In the context of my post I was pointing out how the US has normalized both men.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Commander Bubbles » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:03 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote: Kim is like Castro but w/ nukes.


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He’s not?
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Commander Bubbles » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:07 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Good Morning America lost their **** this morning over how "historic" the whole thing was. My Dad texted me at 5:30 this morning to tell me how historic it was so I'm sure Fox and Friends had a real pessimistic take that downplayed the whole event.


Whether good, bad or indifferent, you don’t think it’s historic? Not saying it really amounts to much, and I’m skeptical, but it’s the first President in office to meet with the North Korean dictator. You don’t think that’s noteworthy?
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:14 am

Wharf Rat wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Good Morning America lost their **** this morning over how "historic" the whole thing was. My Dad texted me at 5:30 this morning to tell me how historic it was so I'm sure Fox and Friends had a real pessimistic take that downplayed the whole event.


Whether good, bad or indifferent, you don’t think it’s historic? Not saying it really amounts to much, and I’m skeptical, but it’s the first President in office to meet with the North Korean dictator. You don’t think that’s noteworthy?

Of course it's noteworthy. And like you said, it doesn't amount to much.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:25 am

Get a load of this.

Inside North Korea’s Shocking Museum of American War Atrocities
In an excerpt from ‘See You Again in Pyongyang,’ author Travis Jeppesen visits a North Korean museum dedicated to showing what it insists are the barbarous acts of US troops.
Travis Jeppesen
06.11.18 12:01 PM ET

Weekends, we usually take day trips outside of Pyongyang. Today’s Saturday, so we’ll take a drive out to neighboring South Hwanghae Province, which occupies the southwestern corner of the country. Our first stop: rural Sinchon county. Home of the Sinchon Museum of American War Atrocities.

I’ve been wanting to visit the museum for years, but it is rarely put on group itineraries. It’s considered one of the more “sensitive” sites, a polite way of saying that its contents are actually rather incendiary. The Sinchon Museum is intended more for domestic rather than international propaganda purposes; virtually every North Korean visits the museum at least once, on mandatory educational pilgrimages.

After the three-hour ride along the potholed highway through depressed bucolica, our van pulls into the empty parking lot.

“You know what kind of place this is, right?” Min asks, a hint of warning in her voice, as we climb out of our metallic, air-conditioned box on wheels.

Elevated on a royal slope above the parking lot, the museum glistens beneath the scorching late July sun. The guide, in yellow joseon-ot, is already making her way down the sidewalk toward us. Above the entrance, a large propaganda slogan has been inscribed in gold lettering. Alek teasingly asks if my Korean is good enough yet to read it. His is, “Do not forget the lesson of blood on the ground of Sinchon.” After we exchange greetings with the guide, our tour commences as we make our way up the hill.

Halfway up, we pause before two elevated mounds, familiar to anyone who has visited a Koryo Dynasty–era imperial tomb, such as that of King Kongmin outside of Kaesong. These, however, are not the tombs of an emperor and his wife; one, we are told, contains the remains of one hundred women who died in the slaughter that took place here, the other the remains of one hundred children. To the left of the museum building stand two warehouses, so nondescript that I hadn’t noticed them a moment before. These, we are told, are the buildings in which the victims were murdered by the American capitalists.

The museum opened just five years after the Korean War armistice, on March 26, 1958. It was rebuilt in 2015 on the orders of Kim Jong Un, who instructed that it be made “more comfortable” for Korean visitors. Previously, the museum space was located at a greater distance from the warehouses where the victims had been killed; now, they were located side-by-side, presumably to strengthen the dramatic impact of the horrors contained in each of the buildings.

At the time the war broke out, Sinchon was a regional transportation hub and, therefore, a strategic point militarily. To get to Pyongyang or Haeju, the provincial capital, you had to pass through. In the early days of the Korean War, the town was captured by the U.S. military. For the 52 days they occupied the area—from October 17 to December 7, 1950, when they were driven out by the advancing Chinese troops—U.S. troops, according to the North Koreans, committed numerous mass murders and atrocities, aimed chiefly at local civilians, that amounted to nothing less than a total holocaust. At least this is the story the museum is here to tell. It has been erected on the locale where many of these crimes against humanity allegedly took place.

The museum is not merely a commemorative site but a vivid, stomach-churning evocation—replete with wax dummies, fake blood, and a piped-in soundscape of screaming children—of the savage butchery and malicious nature that signify American imperialism.

We proceed along a chronology of brutality. The U.S. soldiers launched their adventure, our guide relays, by gathering 900 local residents into an air raid shelter. Through the air ducts, they poured gasoline and then incinerated the victims. “All of them were innocent civilians. Mostly women and children,” she somberly intones.

This was followed by the massacre of October 20, when 520 people were placed inside yet another air raid shelter, in which the devious Americans had planted dynamite. They locked the doors and detonated it. Our guide takes great relish in elucidating all the gory details. Min takes less delight in interpreting, rendering the English translation in an affectless monotone of a description of human flesh left hanging from the walls of the shelter.

I’m reminded of Eden Eden Eden, Pierre Guyotat’s anti-war novel, with its overwrought and crude incantations of sadistic violence, rape, and mass murder meant to evoke the horrors of the Algerian War. Indeed, with its lack of historical contextualization and refutation of any causal factors that might bolster the verisimilitude of what is displayed—even the blurred black-and-white photographic documentation looks abstract, as though it could have been pulled from any number of the past century’s mass slaughters—the museum, like Guyotat’s book, is a collection of fragments of violence; both works are essentially pornographic.

The action shifts to a nearby hot springs resort, commandeered by U.S. soldiers as a barracks. There, our guide explains, they dragged local women, raped them, and then threw them into the hot springs and tossed in grenades to “cover up” their crimes.

Becoming animated, the museum guide bemoans “these American lunatics, who tortured women by cutting off their breasts and inserting sticks in their vaginas.” She nearly spits on the floor. “And these Americans preach about ‘human rights’! And boast that they enjoy the utmost of civilizations!”

When not busy raping and murdering women at the hot springs, the soldiers were occupied with the project of slaughtering an additional 1,200 locals. This they accomplished with the help of vicious attack dogs. Or by burning them to death. It is not specified whether these two methods were employed simultaneously or alternately; it is fruitless to ask, as rationality does not play much of a role in this type of narrative construction.

Twelve miles north of Sinchon, a bridge was barricaded by the U.S. army. Every civilian approaching that day hoping to cross was instead murdered.

At another bridge, the soldiers took sadistic pleasure in tying sacks filled with rocks to the feet of local peasants and tossing them off to drown in the deep river below. The few who were lucky enough to survive and managed to swim up to the surface didn’t meet a happy end; they were shot at by the evil Yankees above to ensure not a single survivor was left.

These scenes are enacted by lifelike mannequins—ugly American soldiers with hooked noses (one can’t help but think of the depiction of Jews in Nazi Germany propaganda) and malevolent grins. Others are illustrated in large, muralesque wall paintings. Over speakers, a soundtrack of screaming children and symphonic music. Piles of bodies forming mass graves in grainy photographs.

Every few years, a new mass grave will be discovered in the vicinity, necessitating the museum’s constant expansion.

“Some of the skeletons unearthed were scratching the ground, trying to climb to the surface as they suffocated. In one of these mass graves, they found the remains of a nine-month-old fetus in one of the bodies,” says the guide. “So you can tell these Americans even killed pregnant women!”

I wonder what’s going through Min’s mind as she’s forced to interpret. Whether she believes all these things, whether she is sickened by them. What kind of detachment her flat, emotionless transcription is rooted in. Surely she has a different relationship to history, to the “history” that is so key in fomenting North Korean national identity, having grown up thousands of miles away.

Alek and Alexandre and I are careful to remain silent, even avoid glancing at one another, throughout the tour. In the past, it has not been unheard-of for tourists to react in anger, even argue with the museum guides, over the veracity of such outlandish claims. This is why tourists are rarely brought here. It is something that has to be requested.

Alek breaks protocol to point out a detail in a particularly gruesome, corpse-strewn photo and begins to whisper something in my ear. Min uncharacteristically reacts in anger, halting her hate-speech translation to remind us “It was you who wanted to come here” before huffing off to the next room. Later, when she notices me filming her on my phone as she is interpreting, she asks me to stop.

Understatement has never been considered a virtue in the North Korean propaganda machinery. Overwhelmed by disbelief, I ask the guide to clarify whether all of these crimes actually took place here in Sinchon or if this museum is meant to commemorate atrocities that had taken place throughout Korea during the war.

“The museum documents only the crimes that took place here,” she responds, before quickly adding, “though more atrocities were committed all over Korea.”

Of course.

We are led into yet another room with the sound of screaming children at full blast.

“Are school children also brought to this museum?” I am inspired to ask.

“Yes,” replies the guide proudly. “And after seeing the exhibition, the children say, ‘The U.S. imperialists are not human. They are wolves.’”

Excerpted with permission from See You Again in Pyongyang: A Journey into Kim Jong Un’s North Korea by Travis Jeppesen. Courtesy of Hachette Books.


It's gonna take a lot more than a photo-op and lunch.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Commander Bubbles » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:30 am

Agreed.

What’s the best strategy here though? War? Continue the status quo? Make an attempt at better relations?

Political teams aside, what’s the best course to take here?
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Stuart » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:51 am

Wharf Rat wrote:Agreed.

What’s the best strategy here though? War? Continue the status quo? Make an attempt at better relations?

Political teams aside, what’s the best course to take here?


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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby NavyBuc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:09 pm

Wharf Rat wrote:Agreed.

What’s the best strategy here though? War? Continue the status quo? Make an attempt at better relations?

Political teams aside, what’s the best course to take here?


I think you need to make an attempt at better relations. Why not? Isn't our ultimate goal peace? At least make an effort at if the other side is as well? I don't know, I'm skeptical like everyone else, but I at least like the fact we're finally at the table with North Korea after 50 years. I just hope we hold tough and make them agree to the terms we want. And given the fact their country is falling apart based on these sanctions, I think they have no choice but to do that.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:21 pm

NavyBuc wrote:I think Kim will comply, at least for the next 5-10 years, and really de-nuclearize. Reason being their country is in absolute hell. The media doesn't really say this, but the sanctions are destroying them. They have no choice but to comply, especially since China has now started siding more with the U.S. Trump keeps thanking Xi for a reason. China was a big player here.

Now down the road 10-20 years from now, things could turn the other way. But for now, I think things will go well.

Btw, I do think we've had some shitty Secretary of States the last 5 years, but I think Mike Pompeo may be the first good one we've had in quite some time. I know people who know him and have met him that have said this guy has hit **** in gear and is much better than Kerry or Tillerson at the position. Hell, he's basically the President running this Korea operation. Trump just went to shake hands and sign some papers. It's been Pompeo who has done everything.

Many excellent points there, NB. Thanks for the contribution.

I'd like to piggyback a bit on one the things you said. Where you mentioned you felt they'd really de-nuclearize for a period of time. If that happens, I think it would more likely wind up turning into a permanent de-nuclearization. Why? Say they do de-nuke. Sanctions are lifted and boat loads (literally) of much needed goods come pouring into NK. On top of that, much needed finance and other services come in to help them with new infrastructure and medical care for their people. The people will be rejoicing and throwing love at their Dear Leader more than ever. Kim will be very pleased at the ego stroking he's receiving and want that to continue. If he were to go back to the same old, same old, the sanctions come back. This time, however, the people would have had a taste of prosperity and likely be much more forceful in denying a return to the past. Kim would be stupid to go back.

So, no. I'm not ready to say that they will only de-nuke long enough to get some goods and then go right back to the way things were. If anything, seeing how things improved, I think that would be enough of an incentive to continue the peace.

Interesting times to be sure.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Crocaneers » Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:44 pm

This just in

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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:34 pm

Buc2 wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:I think Kim will comply, at least for the next 5-10 years, and really de-nuclearize. Reason being their country is in absolute hell. The media doesn't really say this, but the sanctions are destroying them. They have no choice but to comply, especially since China has now started siding more with the U.S. Trump keeps thanking Xi for a reason. China was a big player here.

Now down the road 10-20 years from now, things could turn the other way. But for now, I think things will go well.

Btw, I do think we've had some shitty Secretary of States the last 5 years, but I think Mike Pompeo may be the first good one we've had in quite some time. I know people who know him and have met him that have said this guy has hit **** in gear and is much better than Kerry or Tillerson at the position. Hell, he's basically the President running this Korea operation. Trump just went to shake hands and sign some papers. It's been Pompeo who has done everything.

Many excellent points there, NB. Thanks for the contribution.

I'd like to piggyback a bit on one the things you said. Where you mentioned you felt they'd really de-nuclearize for a period of time. If that happens, I think it would more likely wind up turning into a permanent de-nuclearization. Why? Say they do de-nuke. Sanctions are lifted and boat loads (literally) of much needed goods come pouring into NK. On top of that, much needed finance and other services come in to help them with new infrastructure and medical care for their people. The people will be rejoicing and throwing love at their Dear Leader more than ever. Kim will be very pleased at the ego stroking he's receiving and want that to continue. If he were to go back to the same old, same old, the sanctions come back. This time, however, the people would have had a taste of prosperity and likely be much more forceful in denying a return to the past. Kim would be stupid to go back.

So, no. I'm not ready to say that they will only de-nuke long enough to get some goods and then go right back to the way things were. If anything, seeing how things improved, I think that would be enough of an incentive to continue the peace.

Interesting times to be sure.

Now take everything you just said and apply it to the Iran nuke deal.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:39 pm

Oops
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:12 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Many excellent points there, NB. Thanks for the contribution.

I'd like to piggyback a bit on one the things you said. Where you mentioned you felt they'd really de-nuclearize for a period of time. If that happens, I think it would more likely wind up turning into a permanent de-nuclearization. Why? Say they do de-nuke. Sanctions are lifted and boat loads (literally) of much needed goods come pouring into NK. On top of that, much needed finance and other services come in to help them with new infrastructure and medical care for their people. The people will be rejoicing and throwing love at their Dear Leader more than ever. Kim will be very pleased at the ego stroking he's receiving and want that to continue. If he were to go back to the same old, same old, the sanctions come back. This time, however, the people would have had a taste of prosperity and likely be much more forceful in denying a return to the past. Kim would be stupid to go back.

So, no. I'm not ready to say that they will only de-nuke long enough to get some goods and then go right back to the way things were. If anything, seeing how things improved, I think that would be enough of an incentive to continue the peace.

Interesting times to be sure.

Now take everything you just said and apply it to the Iran nuke deal.

Lifting of sanctions for verifiable de-nuclearization, thus allowing normal relations, which includes trade vs pallets of government cash on an airport tarmac. Not even close. Nice try, though. Take your straw man somewhere else.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:12 pm

MB leading the pooh pooh parade. Corsair would be proud. :lol:
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:20 pm

Buc2 wrote:MB leading the pooh pooh parade. Corsair would be proud. :lol:

Somebody has to break up the back rubs y'all are giving each other.
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Re: Donald Trump vs North Korea

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:24 pm

Buc2 wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Now take everything you just said and apply it to the Iran nuke deal.

Lifting of sanctions for verifiable de-nuclearization, thus allowing normal relations, which includes trade vs pallets of government cash on an airport tarmac. Not even close. Nice try, though. Take your straw man somewhere else.

You go ahead and keep telling yourself that.
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