Trump's Muslim Ban

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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby RedLeader » Fri Feb 10, 2017 9:47 pm

Corsair wrote:
Wharf Rat wrote:
The 7 countries included in the EO are the same countries the Obama administration designated as "countries of concern".

So?

I keep seeing this, but I don't understand how it applies. Obama didn't deny visa holders and green card holders from these seven nations their constitutional rights, did he?

"Obama" is not the secret code word that makes everything legal.

If Obama had written the same EO, it would have been just as unconstitutional. Maybe that's why he didn't go that route?


I believe wharf was simply addressing bootz' confusion over the countries that were included in the ban...
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Bootz2004 » Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:38 pm

Wharf Rat wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
That means he'd have to actually admit the group he's targeting here. Muslim groups of countries he DOES NOT have business holdings with. That's the elephant in the room. Why are certain countries excluded from this immigration ban? Namely Saudi Arabia.


The 7 countries included in the EO are the same countries the Obama administration designated as "countries of concern".


Okay and how many green card and visa holders were denied reentry to the country when Obama was president?
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Wharf Rat » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:14 am

RedLeader wrote:
Corsair wrote:So?

I keep seeing this, but I don't understand how it applies. Obama didn't deny visa holders and green card holders from these seven nations their constitutional rights, did he?

"Obama" is not the secret code word that makes everything legal.

If Obama had written the same EO, it would have been just as unconstitutional. Maybe that's why he didn't go that route?


I believe wharf was simply addressing bootz' confusion over the countries that were included in the ban...


This is correct.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Wharf Rat » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:20 am

Bootz2004 wrote:
Wharf Rat wrote:
The 7 countries included in the EO are the same countries the Obama administration designated as "countries of concern".


Okay and how many green card and visa holders were denied reentry to the country when Obama was president?


I'm not sure what that has to do with my trying to correct this false narrative.

Bootz2004 wrote:That means he'd have to actually admit the group he's targeting here. Muslim groups of countries he DOES NOT have business holdings with. That's the elephant in the room. Why are certain countries excluded from this immigration ban? Namely Saudi Arabia.


Let me spell it out for you. The ban, or temporary suspension of immigration, includes the countries the Obama administration labeled as countries of concern. And has little, to nothing, to do with countries that Trump has business interests in.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Wharf Rat » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:28 am

Corsair wrote:If Obama had written the same EO, it would have been just as unconstitutional.


So are you telling me that the Constitution is unconstitutional?

Edit: Yes, I just posted 3 times in a row. If Corsair can do it, so can I.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby acaton » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:28 am

At least he spews it all in the same post.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby deltbucs » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:09 pm

Does anyone have a tally of how many terrorist entered the country from these countries on the Muslim ban and committed or attempted to commit a terrorist attack since the Obama administration placed the travel restrictions on them? Also, wondering if there are any statistics on this since 9/11.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:21 pm

Wharf Rat wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
Okay and how many green card and visa holders were denied reentry to the country when Obama was president?


I'm not sure what that has to do with my trying to correct this false narrative.

Bootz2004 wrote:That means he'd have to actually admit the group he's targeting here. Muslim groups of countries he DOES NOT have business holdings with. That's the elephant in the room. Why are certain countries excluded from this immigration ban? Namely Saudi Arabia.


Let me spell it out for you. The ban, or temporary suspension of immigration, includes the countries the Obama administration labeled as countries of concern. And has little, to nothing, to do with countries that Trump has business interests in.


So in essence the Trump administration is simply following thru with a list the Obama administration wrote. It's simply coincidence that Trump has business deals in countries not included.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Ken Carson » Sat Feb 11, 2017 2:32 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Wharf Rat wrote:
I'm not sure what that has to do with my trying to correct this false narrative.



Let me spell it out for you. The ban, or temporary suspension of immigration, includes the countries the Obama administration labeled as countries of concern. And has little, to nothing, to do with countries that Trump has business interests in.


So in essence the Trump administration is simply following thru with a list the Obama administration wrote. It's simply coincidence that Trump has business deals in countries not included.

Trump is in mostly real estate, right? I'm not exactly sure, so correct me if I am wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Americans who have investments in Somalian and Libyan real estate is pretty small.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Bootz2004 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:42 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Bootz2004 wrote:
So in essence the Trump administration is simply following thru with a list the Obama administration wrote. It's simply coincidence that Trump has business deals in countries not included.

Trump is in mostly real estate, right? I'm not exactly sure, so correct me if I am wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Americans who have investments in Somalian and Libyan real estate is pretty small.


Good point. So he's looking out for the American people's real estate investments too?
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby beardmcdoug » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:50 pm

If it's good for Trump, it's good for America
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Ken Carson » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:52 pm

Bootz2004 wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Trump is in mostly real estate, right? I'm not exactly sure, so correct me if I am wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if the number of Americans who have investments in Somalian and Libyan real estate is pretty small.


Good point. So he's looking out for the American people's real estate investments too?

What are you even arguing? You seemed to be trying to make the point that Trump picked only countries that he isn't invested in. Which is true to a point, of course, since pretty much no one is building luxury hotels in Somalia, Iraq, and Libya.

I'm not a Trump fan, but you're using arguments that were debunked like a week ago.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Four Verticals » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:57 pm

deltbucs wrote:Does anyone have a tally of how many terrorist entered the country from these countries on the Muslim ban and committed or attempted to commit a terrorist attack since the Obama administration placed the travel restrictions on them? Also, wondering if there are any statistics on this since 9/11.


I believe the answer you are looking for is zero since 1975 based on what I have read.

That doesn't mean it is a bad idea to vet people from these countries more diligently. In fact, Trump and his regime's biggest problem other than his constant stretching the truth to make a point if not making stuff up completely is that they don't seem to know how to govern properly. Had the EO been written in a better fashion, this wouldn't be an issue perhaps at all.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby bucfanclw » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:11 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:If it's good for Trump, it's good for America

Super Bowl parties with wedding-style table seating and gold spray-painted chairs may be good for Trump, but I'll be damned if I have to start hosting parties like that.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby deltbucs » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:50 pm

Four Verticals wrote:
deltbucs wrote:Does anyone have a tally of how many terrorist entered the country from these countries on the Muslim ban and committed or attempted to commit a terrorist attack since the Obama administration placed the travel restrictions on them? Also, wondering if there are any statistics on this since 9/11.


I believe the answer you are looking for is zero since 1975 based on what I have read.

That doesn't mean it is a bad idea to vet people from these countries more diligently. In fact, Trump and his regime's biggest problem other than his constant stretching the truth to make a point if not making stuff up completely is that they don't seem to know how to govern properly. Had the EO been written in a better fashion, this wouldn't be an issue perhaps at all.

I don't think anyone is against better vetting. I'm certainly not. I'm just waiting for our so-called president who has the best brain and knows more about ISIS than the generals to tell me how to better vet them.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Corsair » Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:12 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
I've seen nobody in the administration talk about deporting "peaceful" or "law abiding" citizens. It's just opposition hyperbole meant to cast fear like 'Obama's gunna take your guns' talk when he was just imposing stricter background checks.


Reuters: immigration agents arrest 'Dreamer' in Seattle

An immigrant from Mexico who has obtained a work permit since being brought into the country illegally as a child was arrested by authorities in Seattle, Reuters reported Tuesday. The arrest could mark the first immigration detention of its sort in President Trump's administration.

According to the report, the arrest of a 23-year-old Daniel Ramirez Medina was conducted by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers who originally showed up at Ramirez's residence to arrest the man's father.

Ramirez was a beneficiary of former President Barack Obama's Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program, which was designed to protect illegal immigrants who came to the U.S. as children from deportation and make them eligible to work legally.

DACA was established in 2012 and applies to approximately 750,000 immigrants, often called "Dreamers," Reuters noted.

President Trump has pledged to strengthen the U.S. immigration policy and significantly reduce illegal immigration within the country.

According to the report, Ramirez filed a legal challenge to his detention on Monday, arguing that the action was illegal due to his legitimate work permit. He also does not have a criminal record.

Ethan Dettmer, an attorney representing Ramirez, said that he hopes "this detention was a mistake."

Hundreds of immigrants have been detained and arrested during the last week, as the administration seeks to ramp up its deportation efforts.


Opposition hyperbole?
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby HamBone » Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:59 am

Corsair wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
I've seen nobody in the administration talk about deporting "peaceful" or "law abiding" citizens. It's just opposition hyperbole meant to cast fear like 'Obama's gunna take your guns' talk when he was just imposing stricter background checks.


Reuters: immigration agents arrest 'Dreamer' in Seattle

An immigrant from Mexico who has obtained a work permit since being brought into the country illegally as a child was arrested by authorities in Seattle, Reuters reported Tuesday. The arrest could mark the first immigration detention of its sort in President Trump's administration.

According to the report, the arrest of a 23-year-old Daniel Ramirez Medina was conducted by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) officers who originally showed up at Ramirez's residence to arrest the man's father.

Ramirez was a beneficiary of former President Barack Obama's Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA) program, which was designed to protect illegal immigrants who came to the U.S. as children from deportation and make them eligible to work legally.

DACA was established in 2012 and applies to approximately 750,000 immigrants, often called "Dreamers," Reuters noted.

President Trump has pledged to strengthen the U.S. immigration policy and significantly reduce illegal immigration within the country.

According to the report, Ramirez filed a legal challenge to his detention on Monday, arguing that the action was illegal due to his legitimate work permit. He also does not have a criminal record.

Ethan Dettmer, an attorney representing Ramirez, said that he hopes "this detention was a mistake."

Hundreds of immigrants have been detained and arrested during the last week, as the administration seeks to ramp up its deportation efforts.


Opposition hyperbole?


I saw an article where the dude admitted to being a gang member...but, this is the bestbquote I could find in any article
"It doesn't matter, because you weren't born in this country," one of the agents said
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby HamBone » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:00 am

And then there is this...


" U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) said he’s a “self-admitted gang member.” That puts him in violation of the DACA policy and would have made him a priority for deportation even under President Obama, much less Mr. Trump."


Qonder how true that is.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby NYBF » Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:52 am

Anyone have a problem with the woman in Texas who was at the courthouse to get a restraining order against her abusive boyfriend getting picked up by ICE based on a tip from her abusive boyfriend?
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Buc2 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:16 am

NYBF wrote:Anyone have a problem with the woman in Texas who was at the courthouse to get a restraining order against her abusive boyfriend getting picked up by ICE based on a tip from her abusive boyfriend?

Was she here illegally?
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby NYBF » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:20 am

Buc2 wrote:
NYBF wrote:Anyone have a problem with the woman in Texas who was at the courthouse to get a restraining order against her abusive boyfriend getting picked up by ICE based on a tip from her abusive boyfriend?

Was she here illegally?


Yes.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Zarniwoop » Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:35 am

NYBF wrote:Anyone have a problem with the woman in Texas who was at the courthouse to get a restraining order against her abusive boyfriend getting picked up by ICE based on a tip from her abusive boyfriend?



Ive got no problem with someone getting a restraining order against an abusive boyfriend

Ive got no problem with the guy (abusive or otherwise) reporting an illegal

I have no problem with the government acting on both claims
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby mightyleemoon » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:03 pm

I don't understand why people get upset when someone gets deported when they are in the country illegally. And, I would think if I decided to go to, say, Ireland illegally...that I would try to keep my head down and stay unnoticed. I wouldn't go to the cops about anything...not even for a restraining order. Yea, it would suck. But, I'm pretty sure I would understand that's the life I would be choosing when I decide to circumvent legal means.

BTW: I'm also not for rounding them up and deporting, either. That's a massive waste of funds and energy to seek them out. But, whenever they're dumb enough to poke their head up and call attention to themselves...I don't get why anyone would be upset that they end up being sent back to where they came from.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby NYBF » Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:19 pm

mightyleemoon wrote:I don't understand why people get upset when someone gets deported when they are in the country illegally. And, I would think if I decided to go to, say, Ireland illegally...that I would try to keep my head down and stay unnoticed. I wouldn't go to the cops about anything...not even for a restraining order. Yea, it would suck. But, I'm pretty sure I would understand that's the life I would be choosing when I decide to circumvent legal means.

BTW: I'm also not for rounding them up and deporting, either. That's a massive waste of funds and energy to seek them out. But, whenever they're dumb enough to poke their head up and call attention to themselves...I don't get why anyone would be upset that they end up being sent back to where they came from.


For your second point, let's say ICE is just sitting on their ass outside a church used as a hypothermia shelter waiting for people to walk out and then storming them, checking everyone's papers. You mean like that? Or setting up checkpoints at intersections in immigrant neighborhoods and checking everyone as they pass. Is that what you're against?

Personally, I don't know any Mexican Muslims. Or Muslims from anywhere in South America. Or Central America. A couple from the Caribbean.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby mightyleemoon » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:00 pm

NYBF wrote:
mightyleemoon wrote:I don't understand why people get upset when someone gets deported when they are in the country illegally. And, I would think if I decided to go to, say, Ireland illegally...that I would try to keep my head down and stay unnoticed. I wouldn't go to the cops about anything...not even for a restraining order. Yea, it would suck. But, I'm pretty sure I would understand that's the life I would be choosing when I decide to circumvent legal means.

BTW: I'm also not for rounding them up and deporting, either. That's a massive waste of funds and energy to seek them out. But, whenever they're dumb enough to poke their head up and call attention to themselves...I don't get why anyone would be upset that they end up being sent back to where they came from.


For your second point, let's say ICE is just sitting on their ass outside a church used as a hypothermia shelter waiting for people to walk out and then storming them, checking everyone's papers. You mean like that? Or setting up checkpoints at intersections in immigrant neighborhoods and checking everyone as they pass. Is that what you're against?

Personally, I don't know any Mexican Muslims. Or Muslims from anywhere in South America. Or Central America. A couple from the Caribbean.


Yes. I'm against any effort to actively go looking for illegals to deport. I'd rather we save or spend that tax money elsewhere.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby NYBF » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:09 pm

Fair enough.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby Buc2 » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:13 pm

NYBF wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Was she here illegally?


Yes.

Then my answer is, no. I don't have a problem with the women being picked up by ICE.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby uscbucsfan » Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:45 pm

mightyleemoon wrote:I don't understand why people get upset when someone gets deported when they are in the country illegally. And, I would think if I decided to go to, say, Ireland illegally...that I would try to keep my head down and stay unnoticed. I wouldn't go to the cops about anything...not even for a restraining order. Yea, it would suck. But, I'm pretty sure I would understand that's the life I would be choosing when I decide to circumvent legal means.

BTW: I'm also not for rounding them up and deporting, either. That's a massive waste of funds and energy to seek them out. But, whenever they're dumb enough to poke their head up and call attention to themselves...I don't get why anyone would be upset that they end up being sent back to where they came from.


I agree with both points.

Generally most people are OK with deporting illegals. I didn't hear much protest when Obama was doing it at record rates. The backlash comes from Trump. Some are just protesting because it's Trump, but as we talked about on a previous subject, he's exacerbating things 100 fold.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:35 pm

Deporting ILLEGAL immigrants = Acting in accordance with the law

There are tens of thousands foreign nationals that have applied for entry into the USA from all over the world and our immigration services allow thousands in per day LEGALLY.

I support a path to citizenship for those illegals whose only crime is that they are undocumented, at the same time if a small percentage of otherwise law-abiding illegal/undocumented immigrants happen to get deported than so be it.

If you make the choice to enter/stay in a country illegally you run the risk of being deported. America is no different than any other first world industrialized country in that regard. In fact we are much more lax on immigration enforcement by comparison when you look at the % of the population that is undocumented.
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Re: Trump's Muslim Ban

Postby NYBF » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:43 pm

DreadNaught wrote:If you make the choice to enter/stay in a country illegally you run the risk of being deported. America is no different than any other first world industrialized country in that regard. In fact we are much more lax on immigration enforcement by comparison when you look at the % of the population that is undocumented.


Got any links to stories from London of police setting up checkpoints in neighborhood roads just to check papers?
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