Voter Fraud?

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Voter Fraud?

Postby Corsair » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:56 pm

Trump promised an official voter fraud investigation. Then he delegated it to a guy on Twitter.
There is no credible evidence of significant patterns of voter fraud in the U.S.

President Donald Trump spent a lot of his first week in office re-litigating his election victory. In one of his first meetings with Congress, he claimed — without evidence — that 3 to 5 million illegal votes cost him the popular vote, which he lost by nearly 3 million to Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton.

Quickly, some observers pointed out that if Trump genuinely believed that to be true, he would be derelict in his duty if he didn’t order a massive voter fraud investigation.

So Trump promised one.
Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

I will be asking for a major investigation into VOTER FRAUD, including those registered to vote in two states, those who are illegal and....
4:10 AM - 25 Jan 2017

25,925 25,925 Retweets
126,681


He repeated the promise to ABC’s David Muir in an interview on Wednesday: “We’re gonna launch an investigation to find out. And then the next time — and I will say this, of those votes cast, none of ’em come to me. None of ’em come to me. They would all be for the other side. None of ’em come to me,” said President Trump.

The official announcement came on Thursday via Sean Spicer: President Trump would be signing an executive order on voter fraud that day.

“It will be a follow up on the announcement yesterday of his commitment to better understand voter fraud, faulty registration, et cetera,” Spicer told reporters aboard Air Force One.

Within a day of the promised official investigation, however, Trump backed off. Instead of promising an official government action, he pointed to a Gregg Phillips — the source of the two unverified tweets in November that seem to have set Trump off on his “3–5 million” vote spree.
Donald J. Trump

@realDonaldTrump

Look forward to seeing final results of VoteStand. Gregg Phillips and crew say at least 3,000,000 votes were illegal. We must do better!
5:12 AM - 27 Jan 2017

14,836 14,836 Retweets
69,795


Months later, Phillips has yet to show anyone evidence for his claim, or explain how he arrived at his 3 million number.

Now, Phillips is at the center of an investigation into what would be — if his claims were true — the largest incidence of voter fraud in U.S. history, evidence that would shake the foundations of the country’s democracy. And President Trump is putting this investigation in the hands of a volunteer voter-fraud activist, and shining a spotlight on whatever he finds.

The trajectory of the unverified ‘3 million vote’ claim

On November 13th, Phillips tweeted this:

Gregg Phillips @JumpVote

We have verified more than three million votes cast by non-citizens.

We are joining .@TrueTheVote to initiate legal action. #unrigged
8:47 AM - 13 Nov 2016

10,718 10,718 Retweets
9,861


Phillips notably claimed that he “verified” the illegal votes four days before any states certified their election results (Vermont was the first). Nonetheless, his tweet went viral in certain right-wing spheres.

InfoWars, a well-known conspiracy site that has also claimed that the Sandy Hook Massacre was a hoax and 9/11 was an inside job, wrote up Phillips’ Tweet as a claim and argued that all those votes went to Hillary Clinton.

Then popular right-wing aggregator Drudge Report picked up InfoWars’ article (which, incidentally cites “Greg Phillips of the VoteFraud.org organization.” That URL now goes to Election Night Gatekeepers, who say they’d “never heard of” Phillips before Drudge started sending them traffic by the thousands).

Then, Trump started repeating the claim.

To recap: In the span of a week, “3 million illegal votes” went from an unverified tweet, to an Infowars article, to Drudge report, to the President-elect’s new favorite talking point.

Now it’s January, and Trump is still fixated on the fact that he lost the popular vote, and using Phillips’ “3 million votes” to back up his personal theory that he didn’t.

As CNN’s Brian Stelter pointed out, Trump’s tweet about waiting for Phillips’ report came about 45 minutes after Phillips was on CNN, where the host grilled him.

There is no credible evidence of voter fraud on a massive or even significant scale in the United States, so any official government investigation would be extremely unlikely to find any. Phillips is the only one claims to have evidence of any sort to back Trump up.

No one has seen any of the data Phillips claims to have been using, nor the algorithm he and his team are using. Phillips stressed to The Daily Beast that he and his team are all volunteers.

He made his claim based on a database collected by the conservative vote-monitoring group True the Vote (which was the subject of a congressional investigation for voter suppression in 2012). The head of that group told The Daily Beast that his original tweet was “based on his independent analysis.”

Phillips may well be conducting an investigation into voter fraud. But it is not the credible, official government investigation Trump implied was coming. Yet Trump is suggesting he will take Phillips’ investigation as truth and possibly use it to form policy — or, at the very least, drive headlines.
The Trump bait and switch

The trajectory of this story fits into what has become a well worn pattern when it comes to Trump media coverage.

When Spicer first announced the voter fraud investigation, the headlines rolled out: “Trump to sign executive action on voter fraud,” read CBS. “Trump considers executive order on voter fraud,” read CNN.

Then, Thursday night, the executive order was unceremoniously pulled.

“The president got back a little late and he got jammed up on some meetings that needed to occur, and so we’re going to roll all that into Friday and Saturday,” Spicer said.

It’s possible that Trump will return to his executive order on voter fraud, and launch an expensive and potentially damaging investigation. But Spicer’s comments were also vague — “all that” could refer to any executive orders, and its unclear that they will actually include the promised investigation.

In either case, Trump promised to sign an executive order on voter fraud on Thursday — then didn’t deliver. This was largely overlooked by the media: Most outlets folded the new development into their earlier articles, but retained the headlines promising the investigation.

This cycle often shows up in Trump’s media strategy: First, he makes a claim — such as his inflation of the amount of jobs Carrier would be retaining in Indiana. The press reports the claim, spawning headlines that reiterate his unverified statement.

Then, hours or days later, the actual details come out, often showing that his claim was wrong or exaggerated. But it’s too late — his false statement is already out there. The news cycle has moved on, and even when reporters do come back to fact check the details, Trump’s supporters are still likely to believe his earlier statement.

It’s a remarkably effective strategy for Trump; it enables him to build hype with bluster and create the impression that he’s engaged in a flurry of activity, fulfilling all of his promises.

In reality, Trump isn’t (thus far) living up to the huge policy plans he promised — during his campaign, for example, he promised to accomplish 36 specific things on his first day. He fulfilled two of those promises.

Trump’s voter fraud investigation is another example. It may be that we will still see an executive order on a voter fraud investigation; perhaps it really was just delayed. But in any case, Trump already has the headlines he wanted, and somewhere down the line, Phillips may deliver the data. How accurate or official that data will be is another story entirely.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Corsair » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:57 pm

From the other (all encompassing) thread:

Corsair wrote:
This is actually gaining steam in the last 48 hours. I bet, upon completion of this "investigation" into the voter fraud, Trump will sign executive orders to restrict people's ability to vote. Voter ID laws, re-districting, and other requirements. All based on the fact that people haven't taken themselves off the voter rolls after they've died. Has anyone here ever moved out of state and actually done the legwork to remove yourself from the previous state's voter database? The crux of this issue is how many people voted twice, not how many states you are registered. (Steve Bannon and Tiffany Trump were both registered in two states this last election).

BTW, it sounds like this "investigation" will only be concentrating on two states. CA and NY. Maybe that will change, but there should be a full accounting of our electoral system in every state... even the swing states where Trump has something to lose.

The GOP has a chance to further tip the scales in their favor and make their votes weighted even more heavily than Democrats. Combine that with record low turnout from deleted voter rolls and closed polling sites in poor and urban areas and you've pretty much destroyed our fair elections.


There’s a reason Trump keeps lying about voter fraud

By Jason Kander January 27 at 2:40 PM

Jason Kander was secretary of state of Missouri from 2013 to 2017. In 2016, he was the Democratic nominee for Senate in Missouri.

No doubt realizing that he was losing the cable-news message war, President Trump has called for a witch hunt in an attempt to prove the voter fraud lie he has been telling himself about why he lost the popular vote in November.

On both sides of the aisle, conventional wisdom chalks this up to the president being a very insecure person struggling with the reality that 54 percent of American voters chose someone else, but that doesn’t give the president his due. Trump’s staggering inferiority complex clearly is just one of two reasons he’s telling the biggest version yet of a lie that his party has been telling about voter fraud for years. The other reason is that he’d like his party to win the 2018 midterm elections and he’d like to be reelected in 2020, and to do those things he needs to suppress voter turnout.

By deliberately undermining confidence in the integrity of our democracy, the president can make it quite a bit easier for his party to push legislation making it harder for certain eligible voters to vote. Curtailing voting rights by dishonestly inventing widespread fraud has been a major part of the Republican Party’s political strategy for a while. Now that plan is getting a major boost from a president who has no problem just making stuff up.

Voting in our country has never been easy, and unfortunately it has never been guaranteed for everyone. But through the work of brave civil rights leaders, some of whom died for the cause, by the early 2000s we were at a point where most, but still not all, people who wanted to vote could do so.

That’s when the GOP started going backward on voting rights. Today, it’s not that some GOP strategists don’t want black people, for example, to vote because they’re black — it’s just that they don’t want them to vote because they don’t usually vote for Republicans. Over the past decade, these efforts have gained momentum. Extreme voter photo-identification laws started popping up all over the country. In nearly every case, they reduced voter turnout.

The impact of these extreme voter laws was clear in 2016. In Wisconsin, election turnout hit a 20-year low. Election officials in the state pointed to a noticeable turnout decrease compared with 2012 in high-poverty areas where voters may have had the greatest difficulty complying with the recently implemented photo-ID law.

What these laws across the country mandate is that eligible voters obtain a specific form of identification that they don’t necessarily need for anything else in their lives beside voting. If that isn’t a poll tax, I don’t know what is. Whether it costs money or time, or is impossible to comply with because someone doesn’t have a birth certificate, it’s no less wrong here and now than it was in Selma, Ala., a half-century ago.

Americans are struck by lightning with greater frequency than they commit voter impersonation fraud, and that’s the only kind of fraud that photo ID requirements could have any hope of preventing. Photo ID is often referred to as a solution in search of a problem, but that doesn’t tell the whole story. It actually solves a huge problem for Republicans. Minorities, women, the poor and the disabled are all less likely to have state-issued photo identification. They also have a nasty habit of voting Democratic. When they can’t vote, problem solved.

Trump is doing the country a disservice making things up about the integrity of our elections. But it’s important to remember this isn’t just about him overcompensating for his embarrassment that nearly 3 million more people voted for Hillary Clinton than for him. This is about the president’s reelection campaign. He wants Congress and state legislatures to make easier for him to win in four years by making it harder for people to vote.

No matter your political party, you should stand up to Trump on this one. We should agree that every eligible American should have the opportunity to cast a ballot, even if he or she happens to be in the substantial majority who chose to vote for someone not named Donald Trump.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Wharf Rat » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:59 am

But somehow Jill Stein's effort to uncover alleged voter fraud in 3 states, that Trump won, was an honest and sincere effort? Come on, get the **** out. The level of hypocrisy in this thread is too damn high!

I have heard rumors of voter fraud every election cycle. Personally, I would like to see these rumors proven true or false once and for all.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Brazen331 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:27 am

Wharf Rat wrote:But somehow Jill Stein's effort to uncover alleged voter fraud in 3 states, that Trump won, was an honest and sincere effort? Come on, get the **** out. The level of hypocrisy in this thread is too damn high!

I have heard rumors of voter fraud every election cycle. Personally, I would like to see these rumors proven true or false once and for all.


You had to respond. This was supposed to be Corsair's opportunity to channel his inner-mdb and converse with himself.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby MJW » Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:33 am

I thought this thread was going to be about the Dem Primaries. You know, when Hillary kept winning states Bernie got more votes in.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:00 am

MJW wrote:I thought this thread was going to be about the Dem Primaries. You know, when Hillary kept winning states Bernie got more votes in.

No, the issue there is not fraud in the votes but fraud in awarding delegates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_Democratic_primary,_2016

In West Virginia, Sanders won by 15.5 points and took every. single. county. in the state. How were the delegates awarded?

Pledged delegates:
18 for Sanders
11 for Clinton

Superdelegates:
2 for Sanders
6 for Clinton

total:
20 for Sanders
17 for Clinton

That system is broken.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Ken Carson » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:10 am

Guys, Corsair will need a new thread if you keep this up. What you are talking about doesn't involve Trump so it isn't worth discussing.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:36 am

So Sanders Wins WV 51 to 35 and gets 54% of the delegates. Now look at a State Hillary dominated. Florida.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Florida_Democratic_primary,_2016

Hillary wins 64.4 to 33.3 taking all but 9 counties. She kicked Bernie's ass by 31 points.

Delegate breakdown:

Pledged Delegates:
Clinton 141
Sanders 73

Superdelegates
Clinton 24
Sanders 2

Total
Clinton 165
Sanders 75

And 6 delegates floating out there in the ether and I'm sure we all know where they went. So at the end of the day, Clinton gets 69% of the delegates in Florida and Sanders gets 30%. despite the vote going 64-33-2. (O'malley got 2%)

Lets recap.

West Virginia goes 51-35-8 (8% to a local party guy) Delegates go 54-45 favoring Sanders

Florida goes 64-33-2 and Delegates go 167-75 favoring Clinton.

This is the **** they pulled. votes that went to a third candidate went to Clinton and then they siphoned a percentage or two on top of that using superdelegates.

That is so goddamed dirty.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby DreadNaught » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:46 am

Imho the administration throws out low hanging fruit like 'inauguration attendence' or 'voter fraud' had low hanging fruit for the media and critics to grovel over.

The political commentary on this board and social media is much less about policy in what was the most policy packed week I can remember and more about 'noise' that means little to nothing. Meanwhile Trump gets started pushing through his agenda while the media chases the red dot on the wall.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Brazen331 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:18 am

DreadNaught wrote:Imho the administration throws out low hanging fruit like 'inauguration attendence' or 'voter fraud' had low hanging fruit for the media and critics to grovel over.

The political commentary on this board and social media is much less about policy in what was the most policy packed week I can remember and more about 'noise' that means little to nothing. Meanwhile Trump gets started pushing through his agenda while the media chases the red dot on the wall.


That makes sense. Media outlets like CNN or the NYT each have like 20 or 30 Corsairs who get up every morning and dedicate their entire day to digging up dirt on Trump. I really can't see how the guy can possibly survive the media onslaught that is coming his way.

So yeah, distraction is probably a reason for these attendance and voter fraud bombshells as well as the fact that Trump is quite frankly a walking circus. This is the most entertaining head of state I have ever seen.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Ken Carson » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:21 am

DreadNaught wrote:Imho the administration throws out low hanging fruit like 'inauguration attendence' or 'voter fraud' had low hanging fruit for the media and critics to grovel over.

The political commentary on this board and social media is much less about policy in what was the most policy packed week I can remember and more about 'noise' that means little to nothing. Meanwhile Trump gets started pushing through his agenda while the media chases the red dot on the wall.

That's less on the media and more on the fact that we're stupid as a country. Policy critiques aren't clicked or watched, so we're fed nonsense.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby deltbucs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:29 am

Wharf Rat wrote:But somehow Jill Stein's effort to uncover alleged voter fraud in 3 states, that Trump won, was an honest and sincere effort? Come on, get the **** out. The level of hypocrisy in this thread is too damn high!

I have heard rumors of voter fraud every election cycle. Personally, I would like to see these rumors proven true or false once and for all.

Jill Stein's effort was never partisan. It's ironic that you're whining about it being a partisan issue all while trying to make it a partisan issue. She wanted a recount in those states because a group of top computer scientists believed they'd found evidence of voter fraud in those states. She actually went after Hillary when Hillary only wanted to join in the effort after Stein got it rolling.
Trump wants voter fraud investigated, because, from what I understand, some guy on twitter said he had proof that 5 million illegals voted. This was like months ago and he's yet to show his proof.
Personally I'd love to see voter fraud exposed. I don't care who is looking into it, but I'd prefer they had better evidence than some guy on twitter who has yet to show his work.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby deltbucs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:30 am

DreadNaught wrote:Imho the administration throws out low hanging fruit like 'inauguration attendence' or 'voter fraud' had low hanging fruit for the media and critics to grovel over.

The political commentary on this board and social media is much less about policy in what was the most policy packed week I can remember and more about 'noise' that means little to nothing. Meanwhile Trump gets started pushing through his agenda while the media chases the red dot on the wall.

Umm...voter fraud is pretty ****ing important.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby deltbucs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:34 am

MJW wrote:I thought this thread was going to be about the Dem Primaries. You know, when Hillary kept winning states Bernie got more votes in.

Do you really not understand the difference between a broken system and actual fraud?
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Four Verticals » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:44 am

MJW wrote:I thought this thread was going to be about the Dem Primaries. You know, when Hillary kept winning states Bernie got more votes in.


How did "voter fraud" come into play with the awarding of delegates?
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby deltbucs » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:39 pm

Four Verticals wrote:
MJW wrote:I thought this thread was going to be about the Dem Primaries. You know, when Hillary kept winning states Bernie got more votes in.


How did "voter fraud" come into play with the awarding of delegates?

Apparently the electoral college is voter fraud in MJW's world.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:13 pm

The Associated Press Verified account
‏@AP

.@AP has learned President Donald Trump's voter fraud expert is registered in 3 states.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Nano » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:22 pm

The voter fraud expert guy is a fraud?
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Corsair » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:40 pm

I think a major disconnect between the Administration and the people is how it is being litigated in the media.

It is not illegal to be registered in multiple states at once. This is the statistic that Trump surrogates use to promote the idea of voter fraud. Many people are registered because they have moved out of state and haven't called their old state to be taken off the voter rolls. Who here has ever moved and called to have their names taken off the voter rolls at their old address? Voters are ultimately purged from voter rolls after long periods of not voting, so there are ways to upgrade this system but it requires states to coordinate and homogenize their voting systems.

It is however illegal to vote multiple times. Which is the statistic that we should be paying attention to. That statistic has previously been deemed "miniscule" and all the anecdotal accounts seem to say that it was Trump supporters who got caught committing voter fraud.

There are thousands of dead people on voter rolls. It's not illegal to be dead and on a voter roll. How many of you who have lost loved ones have called the county registrar to take them off the voter rolls? Nobody I've ever talked to has. But there is anecdotal accounts of this happening, but actual statistics again say that this is unable to affect an election in any practical way.

So listen to how the argument is worded.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:29 pm

I'm probably registered in two states. Lock me up!
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby NYBF » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:54 pm

Ken Carson wrote:I'm probably registered in two states. Lock me up!


Are you brown? Did you vote something other than Republican? They might try to.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Ken Carson » Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:45 pm

NYBF wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I'm probably registered in two states. Lock me up!


Are you brown? Did you vote something other than Republican? They might try to.

Looks like I'm 50/50 to do time.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jan 31, 2017 1:07 pm

Ken Carson wrote:I'm probably registered in two states. Lock me up!

I may be as well. I don't recall ever unregistering myself in Florida when I moved to Virginia.
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jan 31, 2017 2:13 pm

I'm registered in all 57 states
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Re: Voter Fraud?

Postby Nano » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:18 pm

I'm registered 10 times in the same state. Get on my level
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