CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Wed May 16, 2018 3:52 pm

deltbucs wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I’m saying that they better have had proof. If they didn’t, but then find it, they violated the Constution. Are you OK with people violating the Consitution if it means they “get Trump?”

No. Not sure where you got that from. You're acting as if it's already proven that they violated the constitution.


Here's the thing... why do I have to prove that they violated the Constitution? Why is it not on the FBI to provide the necessary proof that entitles them to any number of files related to a lawyer and his dealings with clients, which is otherwise a clear violation of the 6th Amendment.

What have you heard since that raid? So and so worked with Cohen. Stormy Daniels paid hush money. People associated with such and such business put Cohen on retainer. Why haven't the leaks been about Trump's ties to Russia in relation to election fraud? It looks like all the information coming out is about who Michael Cohen had as clients, and potentially embarrassing information (ie, being remotely associated with Trump).

I'm sorry, but this isn't right. Or are you actually OK with the next FBI head (appointed by Pence after Trump is impeached) receiving a suspicious document about Robert Bauer's ties to such and such a country, which prompts a pre-dawn raid at his office and the seizure of all of his files and then endless headlines about Obama's personal lawyer was associated with X, tying Obama to Y?

Or even better, every incoming President for the rest of time will have the entirety of their campaign scrutinized and every last campaign advisor will be investigated for crimes dating back to the Carter administration to undermine everything that president does. Great!
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby deltbucs » Wed May 16, 2018 9:50 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
deltbucs wrote:No. Not sure where you got that from. You're acting as if it's already proven that they violated the constitution.


Here's the thing... why do I have to prove that they violated the Constitution?

Because you're the one claiming that they did. When the investigation is done they sure as hell better prove they didn't violate the constitution. We don't have all the information now and you want me to prove a negative? If you want to discuss facts we can do so, but you're all up in arms about something that you're assuming is true without the evidence available as of now.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Wed May 16, 2018 11:27 pm

Interesting that the Senate Intel Commitee has broken ranks with the HIC, thrown shade at them, and confirmed that Russia did attack our election process.

So, we so far have the DOJ, IC, SIC, and multiple foreign intelligence agencies versus the Trump administration and the HIC.

Hmmm... nothing to see here.


Source:https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/05/16/us/politics/richard-burr-senate-intelligence-committee-russia.html
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby RedLeader » Wed May 16, 2018 11:56 pm

People were still wondering about this? Lol. That they “attacked” our election hasnt been in question for a while...
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Thu May 17, 2018 5:36 am

RedLeader wrote:People were still wondering about this? Lol. That they “attacked” our election hasnt been in question for a while...



You should check out the transcripts of Jr's testimony.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 5:53 am

deltbucs wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:
Here's the thing... why do I have to prove that they violated the Constitution?

Because you're the one claiming that they did. When the investigation is done they sure as hell better prove they didn't violate the constitution. We don't have all the information now and you want me to prove a negative? If you want to discuss facts we can do so, but you're all up in arms about something that you're assuming is true without the evidence available as of now.

I never claimed that you had to prove they didn’t. I said they do.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby bucfanclw » Thu May 17, 2018 6:26 am

Its beginning to look like Cohen's office was raided due to the fact that a whistleblower found that a couple SARs had come up missing. For those that never worked in banking, SARs (Suspicious Activity Reports) are filled out when uncommon activity happens on an account. This can be very large deposits, multiple cash transactions just below reporting thresholds, etc. that help the FEC track down money laundering activity. Having worked in banking for a few years, I can understand why the whistleblower would have acted.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 7:16 am

bucfanclw wrote:Its beginning to look like Cohen's office was raided due to the fact that a whistleblower found that a couple SARs had come up missing. For those that never worked in banking, SARs (Suspicious Activity Reports) are filled out when uncommon activity happens on an account. This can be very large deposits, multiple cash transactions just below reporting thresholds, etc. that help the FEC track down money laundering activity. Having worked in banking for a few years, I can understand why the whistleblower would have acted.


Link?
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby bucfanclw » Thu May 17, 2018 7:20 am

Ken Carson wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Its beginning to look like Cohen's office was raided due to the fact that a whistleblower found that a couple SARs had come up missing. For those that never worked in banking, SARs (Suspicious Activity Reports) are filled out when uncommon activity happens on an account. This can be very large deposits, multiple cash transactions just below reporting thresholds, etc. that help the FEC track down money laundering activity. Having worked in banking for a few years, I can understand why the whistleblower would have acted.


Link?


https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/missing-files-motivated-the-leak-of-michael-cohens-financial-records
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 8:03 am



Your timeline is way off. Cohen was raided more than a month ago, and the SARs whistleblower acted last week. And that guy released bank records, not Cohen's personal files. Something shady, no doubt, but clearly not justification to raid Cohen's office a month ago.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Thu May 17, 2018 8:08 am

Ken Carson wrote:


Your timeline is way off. Cohen was raided more than a month ago, and the SARs whistleblower acted last week. And that guy released bank records, not Cohen's personal files. Something shady, no doubt, but clearly not justification to raid Cohen's office a month ago.


Yeah, this is more recent.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby bucfanclw » Thu May 17, 2018 8:12 am

Ken Carson wrote:


Your timeline is way off. Cohen was raided more than a month ago, and the SARs whistleblower acted last week. And that guy released bank records, not Cohen's personal files. Something shady, no doubt, but clearly not justification to raid Cohen's office a month ago.

There were multiple SARs filed dating back to January. They lost 2 of them, prompting the whistleblower, but the very fact that SARs existed is enough to take action.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby bucfanclw » Thu May 17, 2018 9:07 am

I remember when a SAR one of my tellers filled out resulted in a local business getting raided for hiring illegal immigrants. Someone should have told him that was an unconstitutional raid of his office.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 11:18 am

bucfanclw wrote:I remember when a SAR one of my tellers filled out resulted in a local business getting raided for hiring illegal immigrants. Someone should have told him that was an unconstitutional raid of his office.


Was the business a law office? If so, were the files seized potentially protected communication between and attorney and his/her client? If not, then I don't get your comparison. One of the two is protected by law except in very specific circumstances.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 11:28 am

bucfanclw wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:
Your timeline is way off. Cohen was raided more than a month ago, and the SARs whistleblower acted last week. And that guy released bank records, not Cohen's personal files. Something shady, no doubt, but clearly not justification to raid Cohen's office a month ago.

There were multiple SARs filed dating back to January. They lost 2 of them, prompting the whistleblower, but the very fact that SARs existed is enough to take action.


First of all, the 'missing' SARs were bank records, not Cohen files. So there is no reason to take his files to locate records that the bank is missing. Second, why not subpoena Cohen to account for all transactions under contempt of court? He could be held indefinitely in jail unless he complies with or quashes the subpoena. Why the need to raid his office and take his files?

Here's the guideline from the US attorney's manual:
In order to avoid impinging on valid attorney-client relationships, prosecutors are expected to take the least intrusive approach consistent with vigorous and effective law enforcement when evidence is sought from an attorney actively engaged in the practice of law. Consideration should be given to obtaining information from other sources or through the use of a subpoena, unless such efforts could compromise the criminal investigation or prosecution, or could result in the obstruction or destruction of evidence, or would otherwise be ineffective.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby bucfanclw » Thu May 17, 2018 11:51 am

Ken Carson wrote:Here's the guideline from the US attorney's manual:
In order to avoid impinging on valid attorney-client relationships, prosecutors are expected to take the least intrusive approach consistent with vigorous and effective law enforcement when evidence is sought from an attorney actively engaged in the practice of law. Consideration should be given to obtaining information from other sources or through the use of a subpoena, unless such efforts could compromise the criminal investigation or prosecution, or could result in the obstruction or destruction of evidence, or would otherwise be ineffective.

You seriously just posted something that defeats your own argument. You wanted delt to prove it wasn't violating the Constitution without knowing what evidence Mueller already had and now you're posting something that outright says a subpoena should be used unless it could compromise the investigation. Sadly, I don't think you'll be bringing home the gold since you didn't really stick the landing here.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 3:12 pm

I'm well aware of that clause. I posted it after all. Again, I don't have to prove the Mueller isn't violating the Constitution with his prosecutorial conduct or forgoing subpoenas for search warrants. I'm arguing on behalf of how I would want the law applied to me, my attorney and consistent with the Constitution.

While you are looking for every excuse to justify an aggressive prosecution, I'm not comfortable with the precedents it is setting from a civil liberties perspective. Trump is a useful boogeyman for people to lay down their civil rights and freedoms, I suppose. Sad!
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby deltbucs » Thu May 17, 2018 7:10 pm

Ken Carson wrote:I'm well aware of that clause. I posted it after all. Again, I don't have to prove the Mueller isn't violating the Constitution with his prosecutorial conduct or forgoing subpoenas for search warrants. I'm arguing on behalf of how I would want the law applied to me, my attorney and consistent with the Constitution.

While you are looking for every excuse to justify an aggressive prosecution, I'm not comfortable with the precedents it is setting from a civil liberties perspective. Trump is a useful boogeyman for people to lay down their civil rights and freedoms, I suppose. Sad!

So you want them to prove that they aren't violating the Constitution right now even if it fucks up their investigating that they went this far to investigate?
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby mdb1958 » Thu May 17, 2018 7:44 pm

deltbucs wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:I'm well aware of that clause. I posted it after all. Again, I don't have to prove the Mueller isn't violating the Constitution with his prosecutorial conduct or forgoing subpoenas for search warrants. I'm arguing on behalf of how I would want the law applied to me, my attorney and consistent with the Constitution.

While you are looking for every excuse to justify an aggressive prosecution, I'm not comfortable with the precedents it is setting from a civil liberties perspective. Trump is a useful boogeyman for people to lay down their civil rights and freedoms, I suppose. Sad!

So you want them to prove that they aren't violating the Constitution right now even if it fucks up their investigating that they went this far to investigate?



They should operate within the framework of the constitution as sworn employees of the United States government. Willful and wanton should be brought back into the equation. Or, do you approve of the term "above the law"?
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu May 17, 2018 7:56 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
deltbucs wrote:So you want them to prove that they aren't violating the Constitution right now even if it fucks up their investigating that they went this far to investigate?



They should operate within the framework of the constitution as sworn employees of the United States government. Willful and wanton should be brought back into the equation. Or, do you approve of the term "above the law"?

Do an about face and look at the man you're defending if you want to see who thinks they're above the law.

He's not a conservative.
He's not a Republican.
He's not even a Christian.
Stop defending a man who does not share your values.
Go vote for someone who does.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby mdb1958 » Thu May 17, 2018 7:57 pm

You cant be this un-bright Delt. If things can be done this way to a sitting president - Ken is saying it can be done to anyone.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby mdb1958 » Thu May 17, 2018 8:24 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:

They should operate within the framework of the constitution as sworn employees of the United States government. Willful and wanton should be brought back into the equation. Or, do you approve of the term "above the law"?

Do an about face and look at the man you're defending if you want to see who thinks they're above the law.

He's not a conservative.
He's not a Republican.
He's not even a Christian.
Stop defending a man who does not share your values.
Go vote for someone who does.



He is my president, Maxine Buc. Just like Obama was.

Its really simple, "like it or not" doesnt change a fact.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 8:30 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:

They should operate within the framework of the constitution as sworn employees of the United States government. Willful and wanton should be brought back into the equation. Or, do you approve of the term "above the law"?

Do an about face and look at the man you're defending if you want to see who thinks they're above the law.

He's not a conservative.
He's not a Republican.
He's not even a Christian.
Stop defending a man who does not share your values.
Go vote for someone who does.

The trouble about fighting for human freedom is that you have to spend much of your life defending sons of bitches.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby mdb1958 » Thu May 17, 2018 8:57 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Do an about face and look at the man you're defending if you want to see who thinks they're above the law.

He's not a conservative.
He's not a Republican.
He's not even a Christian.
Stop defending a man who does not share your values.
Go vote for someone who does.

The trouble about fighting for human freedom is that you have to spend much of your life defending sons of bitches.


In my humble opinion, he is someone who could bring drastic changes between Cuba and the US for the better.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu May 17, 2018 9:50 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Do an about face and look at the man you're defending if you want to see who thinks they're above the law.

He's not a conservative.
He's not a Republican.
He's not even a Christian.
Stop defending a man who does not share your values.
Go vote for someone who does.

The trouble about fighting for human freedom is that you have to spend much of your life defending sons of bitches.

Bullshit. I don't agree with that at all.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby WalterGronkite » Thu May 17, 2018 9:52 pm

A lot of government power thrown at Trump to keep him from becoming President... makes you wonder who the real President of change is.



In About 10 days they’ll release the Independent report done on HRC. Things will get interesting. It will be redacted I’m sure, so they’ll be another fight for more information.

Get ready boys
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 9:53 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:The trouble about fighting for human freedom is that you have to spend much of your life defending sons of bitches.

Bullshit. I don't agree with that at all.

Maybe you don’t understand it then. Or should freedom and civil rights only belong to the people you think deserve them?
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Ken Carson » Thu May 17, 2018 9:54 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:The trouble about fighting for human freedom is that you have to spend much of your life defending sons of bitches.


In my humble opinion, he is someone who could bring drastic changes between Cuba and the US for the better.

Why? I sincerely doubt he thinks Cuba is anything different from other shithole countries...
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu May 17, 2018 10:03 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Bullshit. I don't agree with that at all.

Maybe you don’t understand it then. Or should freedom and civil rights only belong to the people you think deserve them?

You're drunk or belligerent.

We should be holding our elected leaders to high standards. When one of them, regardless of party, falls short of that standard they need to be held accountable and the first people to do it are the ones who voted for them.

Now here in a second, somebody is gonna come rolling in with some whataboutism to try and call me a hypocrite, but that falls flat because we are talking about this President at this point in time and if Trump is found by Meuller to be a part of all this, we as a people need to decide if we're going to hold him accountable. Because if he did and we do nothing about it we may as well pack it up and stop pretending there's any sort of democracy here.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Thu May 17, 2018 10:06 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Maybe you don’t understand it then. Or should freedom and civil rights only belong to the people you think deserve them?

You're drunk or belligerent.

We should be holding our elected leaders to high standards. When one of them, regardless of party, falls short of that standard they need to be held accountable and the first people to do it are the ones who voted for them.

Now here in a second, somebody is gonna come rolling in with some whataboutism to try and call me a hypocrite, but that falls flat because we are talking about this President at this point in time and if Trump is found by Meuller to be a part of all this, we as a people need to decide if we're going to hold him accountable. Because if he did and we do nothing about it we may as well pack it up and stop pretending there's any sort of democracy here.


He's not drunk or belligerent. He's a Subaru corporate salesman who thinks he's more qualified to speak to the situation in Cuba than most people because his wife is Cuban.

In short, Ken is an idiot when it comes to complex political topics.
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