CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:57 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Let's stop pretending that this is the first time a foreign government meddled in an election.

What are we going to do? Go to war over it?

It did not change the outcome.


Page 1 and I think it still holds true.

Yes. But at the time I did not believe the Trump campaign willingly participated in said meddling.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:03 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Page 1 and I think it still holds true.

Yes. But at the time I did not believe the Trump campaign willingly participated in said meddling.


Really?

I thought you had lower expectations for Trump.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:06 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Yes. But at the time I did not believe the Trump campaign willingly participated in said meddling.


Really?

I thought you had lower expectations for Trump.

For incompetence and being a shitty person, not for something like this.

Still. Meuller will find what he can find and he'll prove what he can prove. I'm more concerned with having a blue midterm this November.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Mon Jan 29, 2018 9:28 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
Really?

I thought you had lower expectations for Trump.

For incompetence and being a shitty person, not for something like this.

Still. Meuller will find what he can find and he'll prove what he can prove. I'm more concerned with having a blue midterm this November.


That is also important.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:44 pm

Oh, hey, so comes out today that the FBI has a second dossier that corroborates that Trump was compromised during a 2013 trip to Moscow that involved lewd acts in a five-star hotel. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... earer-memo

Also, remember that the existence of sexual kompromat was independently corroborated by the CIA.

Source:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427


But there's nothing there, right?
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 12:49 pm

Outsider...picking up Corsair's torch. Nice.

The Guardian...the lefts version of rightwingnews.com.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:57 pm

Buc2 wrote:Outsider...picking up Corsair's torch. Nice.

The Guardian...the lefts version of rightwingnews.com.


The Guardian is actually a pretty main stream and respected British publication.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:00 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Outsider...picking up Corsair's torch. Nice.

The Guardian...the lefts version of rightwingnews.com.


The Guardian is actually a pretty main stream and respected British publication.


While the Guardian has an obvious left lean, it's not rightwingnews extreme.

edit: Meant to quote Buc2...
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:01 pm

The Outsider wrote:Oh, hey, so comes out today that the FBI has a second dossier that corroborates that Trump was compromised during a 2013 trip to Moscow that involved lewd acts in a five-star hotel. Source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... earer-memo

But there's nothing there, right?


From your linked article that I'm sure you read...
The second memo was written by Cody Shearer, a controversial political activist and former journalist who was close to the Clinton White House in the 1990s.


Did a quick look at who Cody Shearer is/was. This really isn't worthy of additional response as this dude cut his teeth by being a tabloid smear artist before becoming a lackey for the Clintons.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:16 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
The Guardian is actually a pretty main stream and respected British publication.


While the Guardian has an obvious left lean, it's not rightwingnews extreme.

edit: Meant to quote Buc2...

Okay. Yeah...rightwingnews is pretty extreme. Even I don't read their ****. So replace rightwingnews with Fox News then.

That's more in line according to Pew. The below are from a 2014 study, but they're probably not a lot different today.

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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:20 pm

In terms of being trustworthy it's right below WaPo and NYT and about as liberal as NYT. That seems to be several notches above Fox News.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:35 pm

The Outsider wrote:In terms of being trustworthy it's right below WaPo and NYT and about as liberal as NYT. That seems to be several notches above Fox News.


Whatever bias The Guardian or whatever other media entity does or doesn't have is irrelevant to the 2nd "dossier" and it's author.

You're championing a memo written by a known Clinton lackey that has a documented history of publishing smear articles, while you simultaneously have the audacity to claim that people who question the contents of such documents without any other corroborating evidence must be living in an "alternate reality".
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:53 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
The Outsider wrote:In terms of being trustworthy it's right below WaPo and NYT and about as liberal as NYT. That seems to be several notches above Fox News.


Whatever bias The Guardian or whatever other media entity does or doesn't have is irrelevant to the 2nd "dossier" and it's author.

You're championing a memo written by a known Clinton lackey that has a documented history of publishing smear articles, while you simultaneously have the audacity to claim that people who question the contents of such documents without any other corroborating evidence must be living in an "alternate reality".


A memo that independently corroborates some of the Steele memo. That's why I care. It could have been written by Weird Al Yankovic and I'd feel the same way. There is no connection between Steele and Shearer, so while Shearer is a known **** head some of his intel matches the intel of a very well regarded ex-MI6 officer. Until someone can give me a direct link between Shearer and Steele I see no reason to discount any corroborations between the two documents.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:03 pm

The Outsider wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Whatever bias The Guardian or whatever other media entity does or doesn't have is irrelevant to the 2nd "dossier" and it's author.

You're championing a memo written by a known Clinton lackey that has a documented history of publishing smear articles, while you simultaneously have the audacity to claim that people who question the contents of such documents without any other corroborating evidence must be living in an "alternate reality".


A memo that independently corroborates some of the Steele memo. That's why I care. It could have been written by Weird Al Yankovic and I'd feel the same way. There is no connection between Steele and Shearer, so while Shearer is a known **** head some of his intel matches the intel of a very well regarded ex-MI6 officer. Until someone can give me a direct link between Shearer and Steele I see no reason to discount any corroborations between the two documents.


lol. Have you ever asked yourself why this "very well regarded ex-MI6 officer" authored the original dossier? Who asked him, funded him, etc?

Here is your connection.
Spoiler:
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:16 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
A memo that independently corroborates some of the Steele memo. That's why I care. It could have been written by Weird Al Yankovic and I'd feel the same way. There is no connection between Steele and Shearer, so while Shearer is a known **** head some of his intel matches the intel of a very well regarded ex-MI6 officer. Until someone can give me a direct link between Shearer and Steele I see no reason to discount any corroborations between the two documents.


lol. Have you ever asked yourself why this "very well regarded ex-MI6 officer" authored the original dossier? Who asked him, funded him, etc?

Here is your connection.
Spoiler:
Image


I'm very well aware of Fusion GPS. Right, Fusion gps started doing the opposition research in to Trump starting September of 2015, which was first funded by The Washington Free Beacon, which is a conservative political website. They stopped funding the opposition research in Spring 2016 when Trump became the nominee. The tab was then picked up by a law firm on behalf of the Clinton campaign and the DNC to continue the opposition research in to Trump. Pretty standard practice, Trump had Cambridge Analytica. So Fusion GPS then hires Steele in June of 2016 specifically to look in to Trump connections to Russia. Probably because Steele was an experienced and prestigious operative from one of the best intelligence services on the planet. He's also British, so he's likely able to be pretty impartial.

So what seems more reasonable to you? That Steele was simply hired, did his job, and reported the intelligence he found? Or that the dastardly Clintons compromised or bribed this experienced intelligence operative to completely fabricate a series of bullshit?

I tend to lean towards the one that doesn't sound like a bad spy movie, because real life seldom mirrors bad spy movies.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:40 pm

The Outsider wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
lol. Have you ever asked yourself why this "very well regarded ex-MI6 officer" authored the original dossier? Who asked him, funded him, etc?

Here is your connection.
Spoiler:
Image


He's also British, so he's likely able to be pretty impartial.



How could he possibly be impartial? He was literally hired to find dirt. He is the definition of partial.

Most British hate American conservative politics. Twice you've referenced something from there being impartial. Their media/government mostly leans left to hard left, more so than ours.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:57 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
He's also British, so he's likely able to be pretty impartial.



How could he possibly be impartial? He was literally hired to find dirt. He is the definition of partial.

Most British hate American conservative politics. Twice you've referenced something from there being impartial. Their media/government mostly leans left to hard left, more so than ours.

By most, you must mean Labour Party Brits. The Conservative Party Brits....I work for one....Are as economically conservative as they come. If I went out and got my boss one of Thatcher's ashtrays, he'd lose his mind.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:57 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
He's also British, so he's likely able to be pretty impartial.



How could he possibly be impartial? He was literally hired to find dirt. He is the definition of partial.

Most British hate American conservative politics. Twice you've referenced something from there being impartial. Their media/government mostly leans left to hard left, more so than ours.


By impartial I'm referring to his ability to compile information and then speak to it's veracity. Which is why if you look in to Steele's memo you will see that he actually sorted things by what he thought was solid information down through what, in his opinion, could be completely disregarded.

The only reason they lean left of us is because there isn't really a truly left party in our country. Frankly, if you've been anything left of moderate in this country you haven't really been represented in quite a while. There are plenty of British conservatives. I actually think their current PM is from their conservative party.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 5:58 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
How could he possibly be impartial? He was literally hired to find dirt. He is the definition of partial.

Most British hate American conservative politics. Twice you've referenced something from there being impartial. Their media/government mostly leans left to hard left, more so than ours.

By most, you must mean Labour Party Brits. The Conservative Party Brits....I work for one....Are as economically conservative as they come. If I went out and got my boss one of Thatcher's ashtrays, he'd lose his mind.


Yeah, clearly someone didn't hear about Brexit and all that.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:09 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:By most, you must mean Labour Party Brits. The Conservative Party Brits....I work for one....Are as economically conservative as they come. If I went out and got my boss one of Thatcher's ashtrays, he'd lose his mind.


Yeah, clearly someone didn't hear about Brexit and all that.


lol. They are a socialized country. Simply because Brexit barely passed does not mean they aren't more left than we are. I obviously wasn't speaking to the entire country. I'm sure MB knows someone more conservative that some Americans from the UK, but having lived there for years, most of their conservative politicians would be mistaken for liberals here.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:14 pm

The Outsider wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
How could he possibly be impartial? He was literally hired to find dirt. He is the definition of partial.

Most British hate American conservative politics. Twice you've referenced something from there being impartial. Their media/government mostly leans left to hard left, more so than ours.


By impartial I'm referring to his ability to compile information and then speak to it's veracity. Which is why if you look in to Steele's memo you will see that he actually sorted things by what he thought was solid information down through what, in his opinion, could be completely disregarded.


I fear we are at a disconnect by the word impartial. He had an obvious agenda and much of it has been received in that light and that's the reason why much of it has been...disregarded by most.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:18 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
Yeah, clearly someone didn't hear about Brexit and all that.


lol. They are a socialized country. Simply because Brexit barely passed does not mean they aren't more left than we are. I obviously wasn't speaking to the entire country. I'm sure MB knows someone more conservative that some Americans from the UK, but having lived there for years, most of their conservative politicians would be mistaken for liberals here.

In this day and age, I'll have to concede that. American Conservatism has been off the rails and doing the stupid for almost 10 years now.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:21 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
lol. They are a socialized country. Simply because Brexit barely passed does not mean they aren't more left than we are. I obviously wasn't speaking to the entire country. I'm sure MB knows someone more conservative that some Americans from the UK, but having lived there for years, most of their conservative politicians would be mistaken for liberals here.

In this day and age, I'll have to concede that. American Conservatism has been off the rails and doing the stupid for almost 10 years now.


American Conservatism has been off the rails longer than that by propagating their own forms of big government.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby Rocker » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:34 pm

Thank God I'm only vaguely conservative; and as such, only off the rails for a year or two.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:36 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
By impartial I'm referring to his ability to compile information and then speak to it's veracity. Which is why if you look in to Steele's memo you will see that he actually sorted things by what he thought was solid information down through what, in his opinion, could be completely disregarded.


I fear we are at a disconnect by the word impartial. He had an obvious agenda and much of it has been received in that light and that's the reason why much of it has been...disregarded by most.


The disconnect we have is that I don't see his obvious agenda. I think he was hired to do a job, did it, and provided his opinion on the information gathered. Also, who are these most? Because polls show that ~half of Americans think the investigation is important. Among other interesting poll numbers. And the Steele dossier has been a large and visible part of said investigation.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the ... 27856315c9
But sizable percentages of the demographic groups that helped elect Trump think Trump’s campaign colluded with Russia, including:

More than a quarter — 27 percent — of Americans who identify as “conservative”
More than 1 in 10 — 14 percent — of Republicans, and nearly 1 in 5 — 17 percent — of those who lean Republican
More than a third — 36 percent — of white non-college Americans
More than 4 in 10 — 43 percent — of Americans 65 and older believe Trump interfered
More than a third — 36 percent — of white men believe he interfered


This Forbes article offers less of a left slant and numbers showing the opinions on both sides of the issue, but I'm not going to quote it or make it more visible because the WaPo article fits my narrative much better.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/bowmanmars ... eb98b53436

Now, on to this car chase...
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:47 pm

His agenda and job was originally to find dirt on Donald Trump. I'm at a loss from your seemingly lack of comprehension and I think it's attributed to both of us being unclear on what we are talking about with agendas and partiality, but honestly it's not really that important to the overall theme. There are things in Dossier dismissed as proven to be false, things that were even mocked in it. There are also things that have already been proven true, but nothing in it with credibility has real substance goes beyond what we are already discussing in this thread. Trump's team got help from Russia to hack/leak the DNC e-mails and Russia did some campaigning for Trump. You already know I don't see a big deal in that and I know you do. If you would like to discuss the other aspects other Dossier (like the blackmail or money), their merit, and potential impact we can...otherwise it's no departure form the normal conversation.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:57 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:His agenda and job was originally to find dirt on Donald Trump. I'm at a loss from your seemingly lack of comprehension and I think it's attributed to both of us being unclear on what we are talking about with agendas and partiality, but honestly it's not really that important to the overall theme. There are things in Dossier dismissed as proven to be false, things that were even mocked in it. There are also things that have already been proven true, but nothing in it that has real substance goes beyond what we are already discussing in this thread. Trump's team got help from Russia to hack/leak the DNC e-mails and Russia did some campaigning for Trump. You already know I don't see a big deal in that and I know you do. If you would like to discuss the other aspects other Dossier (like the blackmail or money), their merit, and potential impact we can...otherwise it's no departure form the normal conversation.


As for the money, I think it's becoming pretty clear that the Trump family has been involved in money laundering with Russian oligarchs in the past and continue to benefit financially from dealings with them. I think, and this is separate from the investigation as a whole but plays in to why Trump's presidency is so concerning to me and many others, his more or less blatant flouting of the emoluments clause shows that he's more than willing to break the rules to profit personally.

Finally for the blackmail, if there is any and this isn't all purely financial dickery, I have no idea what it could be. I think it would be hilarious if it was sexual in nature, but it probably isn't. But it doesn't look good when you refuse to enact sanctions that were passed by a super majority, thus unable to be vetoed, and signed in to law yourself. That's abandoning his duties as the President.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:13 pm

The Outsider wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:His agenda and job was originally to find dirt on Donald Trump. I'm at a loss from your seemingly lack of comprehension and I think it's attributed to both of us being unclear on what we are talking about with agendas and partiality, but honestly it's not really that important to the overall theme. There are things in Dossier dismissed as proven to be false, things that were even mocked in it. There are also things that have already been proven true, but nothing in it that has real substance goes beyond what we are already discussing in this thread. Trump's team got help from Russia to hack/leak the DNC e-mails and Russia did some campaigning for Trump. You already know I don't see a big deal in that and I know you do. If you would like to discuss the other aspects other Dossier (like the blackmail or money), their merit, and potential impact we can...otherwise it's no departure form the normal conversation.


As for the money, I think it's becoming pretty clear that the Trump family has been involved in money laundering with Russian oligarchs in the past and continue to benefit financially from dealings with them.

This is something I don't and can't see as clear. If this were clear Trump would have already been gone by now. If this is proven to be true, as I said earlier, I would absolutely support and hope that he would be impeached. I doubt he'd be prosecuted, but he should if true.
I think, and this is separate from the investigation as a whole but plays in to why Trump's presidency is so concerning to me and many others, his more or less blatant flouting of the emoluments clause shows that he's more than willing to break the rules to profit personally.


I think it will be investigated simultaneously, but Trump is breaking the emolument rules because everyone is allowing him to, with in the facet he is. He's not like anyone before him with his vast business and wealth, but I agree that I don't like and don't feel that it should be right for him to be able to charge crazy rates for his club using his Presidency. Maybe it's different era, but he's largely been allowed to do this stuff by both parties.

Finally for the blackmail, if there is any and this isn't all purely financial dickery, I have no idea what it could be. I think it would be hilarious if it was sexual in nature, but it probably isn't. But it doesn't look good when you refuse to enact sanctions that were passed by a super majority, thus unable to be vetoed, and signed in to law yourself. That's abandoning his duties as the President.


I disagree with the sanctions in the first place, but I do agree with the optics it paints.
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby The Outsider » Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:23 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
The Outsider wrote:

This is something I don't and can't see as clear. If this were clear Trump would have already been gone by now. If this is proven to be true, as I said earlier, I would absolutely support and hope that he would be impeached. I doubt he'd be prosecuted, but he should if true.


I think it will be investigated simultaneously, but Trump is breaking the emolument rules because everyone is allowing him to, with in the facet he is. He's not like anyone before him with his vast business and wealth, but I agree that I don't like and don't feel that it should be right for him to be able to charge crazy rates for his club using his Presidency. Maybe it's different era, but he's largely been allowed to do this stuff by both parties.



I disagree with the sanctions in the first place, but I do agree with the optics it paints.


You can't say he was allowed to violate the emoluments clause by both parties when Democrats have spoken out about it. Democrats don't have the ability to actually do anything about it with the legislature controlled wholly by the Republican party. Which makes them complicit in my view.

As for the money laundering there is one very weird real estate deal that Trump did with Dmitry Rybolovlev operating through County Road Property LLC. Trump Organization acquired the property for $41 million and sold it to County Road Property LLC for $96 million just four years later. What makes that particularly interesting is that Trump acquired it in 2004 and sold it in 2008 after the bubble had burst. So why did a Russian oligarch buy a Florida property via a shell company for almost $60 million over what it was previously acquired for when the market was favorable for buyers?

Maybe he just really wanted it?
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Re: CIA and FBI: Russia Interfered in US Election

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:18 am

Buc2 wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:
While the Guardian has an obvious left lean, it's not rightwingnews extreme.

edit: Meant to quote Buc2...

Okay. Yeah...rightwingnews is pretty extreme. Even I don't read their ****. So replace rightwingnews with Fox News then.

That's more in line according to Pew. The below are from a 2014 study, but they're probably not a lot different today.

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That chart has me convinced that a liberal could actually be taught that dog **** tastes good. The country's F'ed up and the chart clearly shows why.
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