Ideology

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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:36 pm

I think you reversed course because you deflected and hid behind him citing medieval Christianity. Which is why I stated he should remove that from his post.

Or assume Ken or I stated those same 5 questions and you're having the discussion with us, that way you don't have to concern yourself with offending our religious beliefs
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:42 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
I goaded him into this.



So you never wanted a sincere discussion?












I asked you a very simple question...what part of the principle of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger led you to conclude....

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Your founding principle has no basis in reality. ?




To answer that question does NOT at all imply the principle is right or wrong...but which part do you not accept as reality? That again is why I asked those 5 very specific questions. None had to do with whether or not you thought the principle was good or just or whatever. Simply what part of the principle is outside of reality?

Maybe you chose your words incredibly poorly...but "reality" has a very common definition when talking about philosophy.

When I see the color orange and the guy sitting beside me sees orange as well...we are both seeing the same reality...whether either of us like the color orange is completely irrelevant.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:50 pm

Ken Carson wrote:No, guys. It’s obvious that Zarniwoop has based his principle on religion. I mean, his first example was that noted Jesus freak Nietzsche.


i'll be honest, there are several religious tenets that make up my personal philosophy (mainly those dealing with servitude to God, your family and your neighbors)....what we are talking about isn't one of them - at all. I think the far stronger argument on this particular is one based on the physical world that Jung, Nietzsche, Homer and even someone like Sun Tzu make regarding this specific principle.

Even with things like "charity" and "the golden rule" both of which have strong roots in religion, its the non-religious writers that make a much better argument for them. The Christian Bible is a fantastic story book IMO, it isn't a deeply philosophical work based up Reason -- particularly compared to modern philosophy and logic (the last 3,000 years of Western tradition). I'll take the Eastern Philosophers and the Greek philosophers discussion of the golden rule any day over the argument made in the Christian Bible for it.

All that being said, the Silver Rule kicks the golden rule's ass. ;)
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Buc2 » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:52 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:When I see the color orange and the guy sitting beside me sees orange as well...we are both seeing the same reality...whether either of us like the color orange is completely irrelevant.

But what if he sees an orange Jesus?
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 09, 2018 6:54 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:When I see the color orange and the guy sitting beside me sees orange as well...we are both seeing the same reality...whether either of us like the color orange is completely irrelevant.

But what if he sees an orange Jesus?


Do you mean Trump?




the answer was Chocolate Jesus
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:34 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
I goaded him into this.



So you never wanted a sincere discussion?












I asked you a very simple question...what part of the principle of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger led you to conclude....

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Your founding principle has no basis in reality. ?




To answer that question does NOT at all imply the principle is right or wrong...but which part do you not accept as reality? That again is why I asked those 5 very specific questions. None had to do with whether or not you thought the principle was good or just or whatever. Simply what part of the principle is outside of reality?

Maybe you chose your words incredibly poorly...but "reality" has a very common definition when talking about philosophy.

When I see the color orange and the guy sitting beside me sees orange as well...we are both seeing the same reality...whether either of us like the color orange is completely irrelevant.

I did want a serious discussion, you were brushing me off.

But anyway, I just had to drive across town which gave me a half hour to think about this whole thing about What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Where I think our fundamental difference is in this context is that You see pain and suffering as something endured, overcome, and learned from. Right?

Before I go any further, I just want to be sure thats accurate. You know how I get when views get misrepresented.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Rocker » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:44 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
You know how I get when views get misrepresented.


Stodgy and elitist?
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:47 pm

Rocker wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:
You know how I get when views get misrepresented.


Stodgy and elitist?

All day.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:12 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

So you never wanted a sincere discussion?












I asked you a very simple question...what part of the principle of what doesn't kill you makes you stronger led you to conclude....





To answer that question does NOT at all imply the principle is right or wrong...but which part do you not accept as reality? That again is why I asked those 5 very specific questions. None had to do with whether or not you thought the principle was good or just or whatever. Simply what part of the principle is outside of reality?

Maybe you chose your words incredibly poorly...but "reality" has a very common definition when talking about philosophy.

When I see the color orange and the guy sitting beside me sees orange as well...we are both seeing the same reality...whether either of us like the color orange is completely irrelevant.

I did want a serious discussion, you were brushing me off.

But anyway, I just had to drive across town which gave me a half hour to think about this whole thing about What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Where I think our fundamental difference is in this context is that You see pain and suffering as something endured, overcome, and learned from. Right?

Before I go any further, I just want to be sure thats accurate. You know how I get when views get misrepresented.

I see pain and suffering as inevitable. Whether you overcome it, endure it, or crumble beneath the weight of it all determines your strength.

When someone says “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,” they are clearly talking about adversity. Every contextual usage of the phrase is done this way. You never hear anyone say it in response to “Had a great nap in my hammock today.”

And it isn’t literally everything that any lethal makes you stronger, but as I referenced before... IT IS THE GOVERNING PRINCIPLE BEHIND VACCINATIONS. We’ve discovered that small doses of physical adversity to our bodies make them stronger. It’s biology.

Here is where I think your worldview is jumping in the way. You think that the suffering of Zarni’s daughter, a white upper middle class professor, is never going to be as difficult as the minority child in South Central LA or the kid being brought across the border and separated from his mother. So it is easy for him to tell her that, compared to those others, am I right?
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:19 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I did want a serious discussion, you were brushing me off.

But anyway, I just had to drive across town which gave me a half hour to think about this whole thing about What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Where I think our fundamental difference is in this context is that You see pain and suffering as something endured, overcome, and learned from. Right?

Before I go any further, I just want to be sure thats accurate. You know how I get when views get misrepresented.

I see pain and suffering as inevitable. Whether you overcome it, endure it, or crumble beneath the weight of it all determines your strength.

When someone says “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,” they are clearly talking about adversity. Every contextual usage of the phrase is done this way. You never hear anyone say it in response to “Had a great nap in my hammock today.”

And it isn’t literally everything that any lethal makes you stronger, but as I referenced before... IT IS THE GOVERNING PRINCIPLE BEHIND VACCINATIONS. We’ve discovered that small doses of physical adversity to our bodies make them stronger. It’s biology.

Here is where I think your worldview is jumping in the way. You think that the suffering of Zarni’s daughter, a white upper middle class professor, is never going to be as difficult as the minority child in South Central LA or the kid being brought across the border and separated from his mother. So it is easy for him to tell her that, compared to those others, am I right?

No. You're wrong. This is not about his daughter or his money.

You said human suffering is inevitable and that is correct. Rich or poor, you're going to suffer in some way.

If Zarni believes that it is to be endured, overcome, and learned from I think I can articulate the difference we have and why that colloquialism does not compute with me as a philosophical tenet.
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Re: Ideology

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:53 pm

Then do it with out trying to goad, bait, or be a ****.

Stop trying to set up the perfect time to make your point. 99% of the time you get too drunk, angry, or the topic shifts and you never make your point.

At the end most likely won't agree with what you said, but we can discuss it. Or you can keep this dumb **** up.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 09, 2018 8:59 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
You see pain and suffering as something endured, overcome, and learned from. Right?
.




Sometimes yes. Sometimes no.

There are many things in life I can’t overcome, defeat or in a more general sense accomplish no matter how hard I try.

There are some negative things that could happen to me that teach me next to nothing.

And vice versa for both
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ideology

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:03 pm

Everything that happens in life shapes you in some way. Some so minute or subconscious that it may not register, but it impacts you.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:14 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:Everything that happens in life shapes you in some way. Some so minute or subconscious that it may not register, but it impacts you.



This whole thing boils down to process. The core of the “what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger” principle is what in the East they call indominable spirit....we call perserverence. I can’t think of many things better to base one’s life on.

We are all going to suffer. We are all going to fail. We are all going to experience tragedy. Not everyone will try equally hard to bounce back up....and not everyone will be equipped to succeed if they try (often times as a result of their upbringing). As I said earlier, it’s perfectly ok to try to avoid these things in a reasonable way. And it’s perfectly fine to moan about them sometimes.

In the end though ... we can’t live in a bubble. We need indominable spirit for those truly difficult times


I’m perfectly fine if people don’t agree. To each their own
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:22 pm

If anyone is really interested in the development of this idea I do suggest Nietszche to start. The best thing about his “power of will” is how open it is to interpretation from your own particular context. His Zarathustra is one of my favorite works of all time. Then move on to Jung and his work on suffering. Then the Neoplatonist who try to reconcile the surface level discrepancies in the works of Plato and Aristotle (focusing on folks who touch upon this issue particular like Boethius).
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:47 pm

So here’s the thing .... in case the penny hasn’t dropped yet ... MB you aren’t arguing with me. I have readily cited where my philosophy comes from. It’s not mine. Yes on the periphery I’ve personalized it and maybe I operationalize it slightly differently than those I cited, but it’s their idea, not mine, It’s an idea that has been widely accepted and developed across cultures and millennia. East and West. Pre-renaissance and post-renaissance. It applies to human psychology and as Ken pointed out it applies to biology and chemistry.
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:So here’s the thing .... in case the penny hasn’t dropped yet ... MB you aren’t arguing with me. I have readily cited where my philosophy comes from. It’s not mine. Yes on the periphery I’ve personalized it and maybe I operationalize it slightly differently than those I cited, but it’s their idea, not mine, It’s an idea that has been widely accepted and developed across cultures and millennia. East and West. Pre-renaissance and post-renaissance. It applies to human psychology and as Ken pointed out it applies to biology and chemistry.


So what you're saying is that it's rhetorical nonsense, amirite? :P
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:27 pm

I had fun

And let’s be honest, that’s all that matters

:P
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:21 am

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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:43 am

I know Jung is a big influence on JP. I’m guessing he is heavily influenced by Jung here.

Freud too — Though a weirdo also has some good stuff on this topic of suffering and overcoming
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Re: Ideology

Postby McFan » Wed Oct 10, 2018 7:47 am

Not wanting to read 29 pages of political opinions, I was just wondering which of you are left liberals, centrist liberals, centrist conservatives or far right segregationist, misogynistic, xenophobic, Isiah quoting lunkheads that are intolerant toward gays, lesbians, blacks, unions, smart women, poor people, and the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth Amendments. Hmm?

Too much? :nono:
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:05 am

I'm non-binary, postmodern neo-marxist. Reality is just a social construct that has been propped up by old white men so they can control everything.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:25 am

I'm a ****
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Re: Ideology

Postby Buc2 » Wed Oct 10, 2018 9:37 am

Zarniwoop wrote:I'm a ****

I'd rather be a ***** than a ****.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Alpha » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:11 am

McFan wrote:Not wanting to read 29 pages of political opinions, I was just wondering which of you are left liberals, centrist liberals, centrist conservatives or far right segregationist, misogynistic, xenophobic, Isiah quoting lunkheads that are intolerant toward gays, lesbians, blacks, unions, smart women, poor people, and the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth Amendments. Hmm?

Too much? :nono:



****.

You nailed me.

Son of a bitch!!!
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Re: Ideology

Postby McFan » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:57 am

Alpha wrote:
McFan wrote:Not wanting to read 29 pages of political opinions, I was just wondering which of you are left liberals, centrist liberals, centrist conservatives or far right segregationist, misogynistic, xenophobic, Isiah quoting lunkheads that are intolerant toward gays, lesbians, blacks, unions, smart women, poor people, and the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth Amendments. Hmm?

Too much? :nono:



****.

You nailed me.

Son of a bitch!!!


No, we're on the same page, politically, but I had to imagine a few of those types are in here somewhere. It's easy to spot them. They usually say: "That's not me!" First sign that it is...
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Re: Ideology

Postby Buc2 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:58 am

And you guys are, so-called, legends? Bwaaaaaahahahaha!
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:07 am

McFan wrote:Not wanting to read 29 pages of political opinions, I was just wondering which of you are left liberals, centrist liberals, centrist conservatives or far right segregationist, misogynistic, xenophobic, Isiah quoting lunkheads that are intolerant toward gays, lesbians, blacks, unions, smart women, poor people, and the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth Amendments. Hmm?

Too much? :nono:


"I've heard these words but have no clue what they mean": The Post
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Re: Ideology

Postby McFan » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:51 am

Awww.... there we go! By the way, Legendary status was thrust upon us. None of us sought it. Sorry it hasn't worked out for you. Less posts like:

Buc2 wrote:And you guys are, so-called, legends? Bwaaaaaahahahaha!


is your first step towards fame ... thank me when you get there..
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:02 am

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