Ideology

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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue May 08, 2018 2:41 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:

This is one of the greatest things about the movement so far...they aren't letting idiots hi-jack it...like the Tea Party folks let Palin and other establishment R's hijack their movement and significantly alter the message. But as DN alluded to earlier...they have to be careful how they do this...it can come across as elitist if they do it wrong.

I think that's because this movement isn't trying to take over or start a new party. They're just thinking, talking, and writing.

It's an ideological circle jerk that reminds me of Gen-X cynicism and the outrage animals on the left are low hanging fruit to kick around because those people are stupid. Even the mainstream and progressive left can't stand them.

So where is the denunciation of the dirtbag right? Where is the criticism of institutions and the economics of the day? Or is this whole thing about blue haired baristas throwing **** because somebody assumed their gender?

On the surface it looks like alt-right lite.


1st - The "outrage animals" are the progressive left even if not all progressives are outrage animals.

2nd - There is plenty of denunciation of the alt-right. Listen to Sam Harris or Majiid Nawaz sometime. Jordan Perterson constantly denounces the alt-right for the identitarians they are. As does everyone else in this 'group'. I've listened to countless hours of all of them and never heard one of them promote or endorse anything alt-right.

3rd - JP doesn't get into economics often as it's not his area of expertise, but he's a self desribed britsh liberal and if you really want to know his ecomomic views I'll find them for you. The Weinstein brothers talk most (of this group) about economics and had a good podcast with Rogan some time back. They are former Occupy Wall Street folks so I'd imagine you'd like what they have to say.

4th - It's about MUCH more than just blue haired outrage animals. If you're serious and have the free time you proclaim you should take honest dive-in for few days and decide for yourself, b/c you'll learn that is really what their discussions are about, which is presenting fact and research based ideas and letting the audience decide what to think and come away with. Which is a sharp contrast with what we all get watching the news and why these folks have built such a following outside of the 'mainstream' (even though I think 'alternative media' is a better term than Intellectual Dark Web).
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 08, 2018 3:55 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:I think that's because this movement isn't trying to take over or start a new party. They're just thinking, talking, and writing.

It's an ideological circle jerk that reminds me of Gen-X cynicism and the outrage animals on the left are low hanging fruit to kick around because those people are stupid. Even the mainstream and progressive left can't stand them.

So where is the denunciation of the dirtbag right? Where is the criticism of institutions and the economics of the day? Or is this whole thing about blue haired baristas throwing **** because somebody assumed their gender?

On the surface it looks like alt-right lite.


1st - The "outrage animals" are the progressive left even if not all progressives are outrage animals.

2nd - There is plenty of denunciation of the alt-right. Listen to Sam Harris or Majiid Nawaz sometime. Jordan Perterson constantly denounces the alt-right for the identitarians they are. As does everyone else in this 'group'. I've listened to countless hours of all of them and never heard one of them promote or endorse anything alt-right.

3rd - JP doesn't get into economics often as it's not his area of expertise, but he's a self desribed britsh liberal and if you really want to know his ecomomic views I'll find them for you. The Weinstein brothers talk most (of this group) about economics and had a good podcast with Rogan some time back. They are former Occupy Wall Street folks so I'd imagine you'd like what they have to say.

4th - It's about MUCH more than just blue haired outrage animals. If you're serious and have the free time you proclaim you should take honest dive-in for few days and decide for yourself, b/c you'll learn that is really what their discussions are about, which is presenting fact and research based ideas and letting the audience decide what to think and come away with. Which is a sharp contrast with what we all get watching the news and why these folks have built such a following outside of the 'mainstream' (even though I think 'alternative media' is a better term than Intellectual Dark Web).

1. If you think nobody on the right is running around being outraged, you're as stupid as the barista.

2. I just did, and I'm delighted to have done so. You think I like listening to Donna Brazille and Chris Matthews? I can get better political thought from John Oliver than those two hacks.

3. The NYT did a **** job describing what is going on in this movement from the left. There is some very good stuff in here that a lot of liberals are scared to hear because Milo said something similar once. That doesn't make Milo a good person because a broken clock is still right twice a day.

4. Do not ****ing presume to know how I think. If you want to know, ask me. If you have something to offer, tell me. But you need to stay in your own head, Mr intellectual.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 08, 2018 4:08 pm

Zarni, thank you for those links. That's pretty great stuff.
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue May 08, 2018 4:15 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
1st - The "outrage animals" are the progressive left even if not all progressives are outrage animals.

2nd - There is plenty of denunciation of the alt-right. Listen to Sam Harris or Majiid Nawaz sometime. Jordan Perterson constantly denounces the alt-right for the identitarians they are. As does everyone else in this 'group'. I've listened to countless hours of all of them and never heard one of them promote or endorse anything alt-right.

3rd - JP doesn't get into economics often as it's not his area of expertise, but he's a self desribed britsh liberal and if you really want to know his ecomomic views I'll find them for you. The Weinstein brothers talk most (of this group) about economics and had a good podcast with Rogan some time back. They are former Occupy Wall Street folks so I'd imagine you'd like what they have to say.

4th - It's about MUCH more than just blue haired outrage animals. If you're serious and have the free time you proclaim you should take honest dive-in for few days and decide for yourself, b/c you'll learn that is really what their discussions are about, which is presenting fact and research based ideas and letting the audience decide what to think and come away with. Which is a sharp contrast with what we all get watching the news and why these folks have built such a following outside of the 'mainstream' (even though I think 'alternative media' is a better term than Intellectual Dark Web).

1. If you think nobody on the right is running around being outraged, you're as stupid as the barista.
I never said people on the right are not outraged. But the identity politics SJW types are aligned on the progressive left and most of the outrage animals come from that group/ideology.

2. I just did, and I'm delighted to have done so. You think I like listening to Donna Brazille and Chris Matthews? I can get better political thought from John Oliver than those two hacks.
I'm happy for you, not sure why you felt compelled to mention Brazille and Mathews.

3. The NYT did a **** job describing what is going on in this movement from the left. There is some very good stuff in here that a lot of liberals are scared to hear because Milo said something similar once. That doesn't make Milo a good person because a broken clock is still right twice a day.
Fair, I don't disagree

4. Do not ****ing presume to know how I think. If you want to know, ask me. If you have something to offer, tell me. But you need to stay in your own head, Mr intellectual.
Huh? You posted how you wanted it 'laid on you' so I suggested that you should take honest dive-in for yourself and see what you think because you seem to have some mischaracterizations about these people already. Not sure how you're misconstruing that into some type of presumption or attack. Fwiw it wasn't my intention and b/c I want to be charitable in this discussion I'll apologize if I came across that way
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue May 08, 2018 4:59 pm

Wtf!?!? I did this twice and scored the same. I'm a left leaning libertarian who identifies as a conservative apparently.

So much for political labels...

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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 08, 2018 5:00 pm

So you double down on 1 back off on 2 and 3 and get incredulous on 4.

I wanted the material, not your interpretation of it. I just said the NYT did a **** job of presenting the left wing side of all this. Watch Dr. Peterson on Bill Mahr. Bill agrees with him constantly. To the behest of the liberals on the panel I might add.

By the way. Stop using the term collectivist to monolith the left. Would it accurately describe the right to call them darwinist?
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 08, 2018 5:09 pm

DreadNaught wrote:Wtf!?!? I did this twice and scored the same. I'm a left leaning libertarian who identifies as a conservative apparently.

So much for political labels...

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Here's mine:

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Some of those questions are stupid...but I can't argue all that much with the outcome...I'd pretty much position myself there
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Re: Ideology

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue May 08, 2018 5:32 pm

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I agree with the questioning being dumb. I don't necessarily think this depicts me accurately.
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Re: Ideology

Postby The Outsider » Tue May 08, 2018 6:07 pm

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Not really surprising. I've almost always been a left leaning semi-libertarian. That meaning I don't really think the government should be regulating people's personal lives but there should be a level of regulation outside of that scope.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Buc2 » Tue May 08, 2018 7:31 pm

Figured I'd play too...

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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 08, 2018 7:37 pm

One of my main issues is that using the term “libertarian” as an anchor on the Social Scale conveys the wrong impression about its fundamental concept of liberty. Liberty extends just as much the economic scale as it does the social.

IMO, libertarianism (classical liberalism) fits the lower right quadrant mainly. Not the entire lower half.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 08, 2018 7:40 pm

Buc2 wrote:Figured I'd play too...

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I was thinking of handrawing a graph showing where i think most of the common posters fit but I’m not sure it would go over well...I think people would construe distance from me as my perception of their value when that couldn’t be farther from the truth
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Re: Ideology

Postby Buc2 » Tue May 08, 2018 7:42 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Figured I'd play too...

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I was thinking of handrawing a graph showing where i think most of the common posters fit but I’m not sure it would go over well...I think people would construe distance from me as my perception of their value when that couldn’t be farther from the truth

I'd be okay with whatever you came up with on me. Can't speak for others.

Btw...I've seen better, more comprehensive tests for this elsewhere. I'd have to hunt around to see if I could find them though.
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Re: Ideology

Postby The Outsider » Tue May 08, 2018 7:55 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:One of my main issues is that using the term “libertarian” as an anchor on the Social Scale conveys the wrong impression about its fundamental concept of liberty. Liberty extends just as much the economic scale as it does the social.

IMO, libertarianism (classical liberalism) fits the lower right quadrant mainly. Not the entire lower half.


Once an ideal exists subsets will spawn. Whether or not you consider them legitimate is irrelevant.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 08, 2018 7:57 pm

I’m not sure I understand that.

What ideal are you referring to? And what subsets?
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Re: Ideology

Postby The Outsider » Tue May 08, 2018 8:20 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I’m not sure I understand that.

What ideal are you referring to? And what subsets?


The easiest analogue is with religious faith. Christianity rose and over time multiple sects (subsets) of the ideal have spawned from the original, each picking and choosing what they believed to be right and discarding what they believed to be wrong.

That sort of individualizing of an idealistic system applies to political ideologies as well.

So while you're right to say that pure libertarianism falls pretty much entirely to the bottom right on that graph, you're incorrect in your opinion that my social beliefs, which trend towards the extreme in terms of no regulation or government intrusion otherwise, are not libertarian in nature.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 08, 2018 8:26 pm

Thanks for the follow up but I’m sorry I still don’t understand. I guess I’m a thickie. I never said anything about your personal beliefs in this thread.

From your posts I would absolutely say your social beliefs are against government intervention in many social issues.


My point is simply about the creators of that chart using a term libertarian and it seemingly only applying to social ideas and implying it has an orthogonal relationship with economic views. I think that’s a silly use of the term. That being said, I can’t think of a better one.


And if we really want to get into nuance, I think that quiz did an incomplete job of asking about what it calls libertarian social views. It just asked questions that focused on the traditional bible thumper views of oppressive social gov’t. It didn’t ask about the ever growing oppressive social gov’t intervention views of the PC crowd
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue May 08, 2018 9:47 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Buc2 wrote:Figured I'd play too...

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I was thinking of handrawing a graph showing where i think most of the common posters fit but I’m not sure it would go over well...I think people would construe distance from me as my perception of their value when that couldn’t be farther from the truth


Do iiiiiiiit!!!!!


Did this one about 5 years ago and about two years ago. Went from “Outsider” to “Dreadnaught” in that time span. Gonna do it again if I get a second here
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Re: Ideology

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue May 08, 2018 10:02 pm

That one sucks. We need a better one for the board.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Rocker » Tue May 08, 2018 10:09 pm

I’m interested in a Zwoop quadrant as well.
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue May 08, 2018 10:16 pm

heh

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I'll say I had more issue with the questions this time around though
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 09, 2018 6:49 am

beardmcdoug wrote:heh

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I'll say I had more issue with the questions this time around though

That's why we get along.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Buc2 » Wed May 09, 2018 8:13 am

uscbucsfan wrote:That one sucks. We need a better one for the board.

What do you think of this one?
http://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/politi ... -quiz.html

My results...still very similar to the other test...
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Had to click on the results to download the image, then used TinyPic to upload it here.

Here was the first one again for comparison...
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Wed May 09, 2018 8:43 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:So you double down on 1 back off on 2 and 3 and get incredulous on 4.

I wanted the material, not your interpretation of it. I just said the NYT did a **** job of presenting the left wing side of all this. Watch Dr. Peterson on Bill Mahr. Bill agrees with him constantly. To the behest of the liberals on the panel I might add.

By the way. Stop using the term collectivist to monolith the left. Would it accurately describe the right to call them darwinist?


Again, I'm not trying to interpret anything for you other than correct your initial mischaracterization of calling something you admittedly were not familiar with as alt-right. I also did ask you some questions initially but instead of answering them you decided to take offense.

Of course Bill Maher agrees with JP on things, why wouldn't they and why do you feel that should be surprising? I'd imagine the majority of people would agree with JP if they actually listened and didn't apply alt-right labels/bias ahead of time, but I digress. I'm not anti-liberalism if we're talking real liberalism. That should be fairly obvious by me constantly championing folks like JP, The Weinstein family, Magiid Nawaz, Sam Harris. But I am anti-identity politics which has/is attempting to monopolized the left and modern day liberalism. Like I've stated a few times before, being liberal and this identity politics/victimhood culture should be opposing ideals. It sounds like many (mostly older) liberals (like Bill Maher) get that and agree and it's why Maher and JP agree on alot. Again, JP has publicly stated he considers himself to be a British liberal, which is what I consider to be real or classic liberalism. Religious skeptic Michael Schermer and cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker are other examples, both of which are good follows and part of this 'IDW' group (aka alt right lite, amirite? :P )

I will use whatever terms I want to express my opinions, and would expect you to do the same. If you, or anyone else has an issue with my word choice perhaps you should let me know why those words aren't correctly applied and/or why you disagree instead of just telling me not use them. Collectivism and monolithic thought are akin to one another, if you disagree I'd be glad to understand your view as to why. Maybe you'll change my mind. Fwiw I never stated and I don't believe monolithic thought and groupthink are unique solely to the left, far from it actually. I think it's a trap that anyone can fall into, including those on the right to a degree, mostly around evangelicals and also the far/alt right fringe. It goes back to group identity and adopting the ideals of the group instead of having your own b/c you're an individual capable of thinking for yourself and developing your own ideas and views. Now if a group happens to align perfectly with everything you believe then great, but I've yet to find a person, much less an entire group that I agree with 100%. But I also score low in agreeableness on personality tests (shocker, I know).
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed May 09, 2018 8:48 am

Buc2 wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:That one sucks. We need a better one for the board.

What do you think of this one?
http://www.gotoquiz.com/politics/politi ... -quiz.html

My results...still very similar to the other test...
Image

Had to click on the results to download the image, then used TinyPic to upload it here.

Here was the first one again for comparison...
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Cool find. Both of my scores were slightly higher in magnitude on the new quiz you linked. I like that it allows you to rate importance (but I’d like to see how that actually figures into the scoring).

I also thought many of those questions weren’t that good. They play on the modern stereotypes of the parties instead of something more intellectually honest and consistent.

I’ll bet we as a forum can make better questions
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Wed May 09, 2018 8:53 am

beardmcdoug wrote:Did this one about 5 years ago and about two years ago. Went from “Outsider” to “Dreadnaught” in that time span.

I have a few issues with the quiz in terns if it being it an accurate representation. This like the range of the questions, scoring scale, nor the wording (using absolutes like "never" or "always").

That said I think Outtie and I scored relatively close. Same quadrant and along the same axis from the dead center.

DreadNaught wrote:Image

The Outsider wrote:Image
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed May 09, 2018 9:04 am

DreadNaught wrote:I have a few issues with the quiz in terns if it being it an accurate representation. This like the range of the questions, scoring scale, nor the wording (using absolutes like "never" or "always").]



I agree. The use of extremes like always and never should be exceedingly rare and when it does happen they should be used in the anchors of the responses not in the question itself.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Selmon Rules » Wed May 09, 2018 9:07 am

Not up to copying to some other website to post but my results are as follows

You are a left social moderate.
Left: 3.82, Libertarian: 0.01

Not quite what I expected.... And that's not a bad thing
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed May 09, 2018 9:08 am

And like my complaint on the first quiz, I think the second quiz needs to represent the new authoritarian movement we are seeing from the far left in terms of social issues.

I very much grant that 30 years ago it was the Bible Thumpers who were the authoritians on social issues, I no longer think that is the case. I think the extremes on both sides are authoritarian now


(Kind of like the horseshoe theory that we talk about on occasion)
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Wed May 09, 2018 9:20 am

Zarniwoop wrote:And like my complaint on the first quiz, I think the second quiz needs to represent the new authoritarian movement we are seeing from the far left in terms of social issues.

I very much grant that 30 years ago it was the Bible Thumpers who were the authoritians on social issues, I no longer think that is the case. I think the extremes on both sides are authoritarian now


(Kind of like the horseshoe theory that we talk about on occasion)


Agreed. Imo that is tied to both extremes succumbing to group identity and why I strongly agree w/ JP that identity politics and extremism are very dangerous games.

Group Identity leads to Groupthink which eventually leads to Authoritarianism
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