Ideology

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Re: Ideology

Postby mdb1958 » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:47 am

Does an American socialist accrue 4 weeks of vacation time?
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Re: Ideology

Postby bucfanclw » Sat Oct 29, 2016 8:56 am

mdb1958 wrote:Does an American socialist accrue 4 weeks of vacation time?

People living on social security get all their time off while I only get 6 weeks a year. The system is rigged!
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Re: Ideology

Postby lachisbackisback » Sat Oct 29, 2016 10:02 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Subject change.


I fail to see how minarchism or anarcho-capitalism should be seriously considered any more than socialism or communism.

Sure, all four have their good points if you dig enough, but none are exactly desirable.


I'd actually say the opposite. They all have good points on the surface, but fall apart under any amount of scrutiny. Oh, except socialism. Because socialism is the best system we have at the moment, and the one most misunderstood and demonized needlessly by Americans.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:20 pm

lachisbackisback wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Subject change.


I fail to see how minarchism or anarcho-capitalism should be seriously considered any more than socialism or communism.

Sure, all four have their good points if you dig enough, but none are exactly desirable.


I'd actually say the opposite. They all have good points on the surface, but fall apart under any amount of scrutiny. Oh, except socialism. Because socialism is the best system we have at the moment, and the one most misunderstood and demonized needlessly by Americans.

I'm not a fan of centrally planned economies. Well regulated, sure. But not controlled.

A capitalism to socialism transition also requires killing the bourgeois or at least seizing the means of production from them. That would be a bit ugly.

The Nordic model, on the other hand has enormous promise.
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Re: Ideology

Postby lachisbackisback » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:38 pm

I get the feeling we've definitely been through this before, but this is what I mean by demonizing socialism. I see the modern form of socialism as basically capitalism, but with social programs instituted by the government to ensure that infrastructure stays strong and people don't fall through the cracks unnecessarily. I consider Canada and most of Europe to have socialist leanings. The U.S. as well, really, when it comes down to it, even though you guys don't view it that way.

I would consider communism to be when the means of production are wrested away across the board.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:47 pm

There's so many derivatives of the models, it can be tough to nail them down sometimes.

What you just described is precisely what I think of when I refer to the Nordic model. Market economy with a robust welfare state.

There are other names for the same thing. Market socialism, welfare capitalism, mixed economy, etc.
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Re: Ideology

Postby lachisbackisback » Sat Oct 29, 2016 1:56 pm

Agreed. I hadn't heard of the Nordic model, but it sounds like we're very much on the same page, which isn't particularly surprising to me.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:05 pm

lachisbackisback wrote:Agreed. I hadn't heard of the Nordic model, but it sounds like we're very much on the same page, which isn't particularly surprising to me.

Unfortunately for us, we are intellectually inferior to Libertarians who are apparently far more objective and rational.

Jonny has the sources around here somewhere.
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Re: Ideology

Postby lachisbackisback » Sat Oct 29, 2016 2:17 pm

It's funny, I actually liked philosophy in university, and actually remember liking Hume to a certain degree, which I believe was Jonny's source on that. Having said that, Descartes was really the only one that I studied who had the relatively inexorable "I think, therefore I am." The rest, whether I liked them or not, had some amusing things that they took as given which were the underpinnings for the rest of their musings. I mean, you sort of have to, in order to try to build an abstract logical framework with any degree of objectivity, but the inherent contradiction of starting from the subjective and trying to move to the objective always stood out to me whether the prof reinforced it or not.

Anyhow, Jonny's belief in that regard is probably very silly, above and beyond my relative digression above.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Jonny » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:17 pm

lachisbackisback wrote:I get the feeling we've definitely been through this before, but this is what I mean by demonizing socialism. I see the modern form of socialism as basically capitalism, but with social programs instituted by the government to ensure that infrastructure stays strong and people don't fall through the cracks unnecessarily. I consider Canada and most of Europe to have socialist leanings. The U.S. as well, really, when it comes down to it, even though you guys don't view it that way.


So basically the kind of socialism you advocate for (Democratic Socialism) is the kind where the Government thinks it is justified to take away money from the working class by threat of a gun to help a guy that is helpless. I know there is more to it, such as social programs, but lets settle with this for the sake of simplicity.

Contrast that with Capitalism (the absolute kind) where every man has the right to his own fruits of labor and wealth distribution happens through commerce or charity, both of which are voluntary forms of interaction.

So what standard are you applying here again to grade one above the other? My standard is liberty. What is yours?

Also it is kind of funny how you and MB seem to be bothered with my assertion that right wing atheists and libertarians in general are more objective. At least with my history of debating with MB, I know that he will go through all types of mental gymnastics to dismiss the evidence staring right at him. Hopefully your atheism and skepticism are genuine and consistent.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:41 pm

Jonny have you ever heard of company scrip?

I wouldn't blame you if you didn't since it's been decades since it was in use in the US. Company scrip is how Appalachian coal miners were paid instead of money. It was only redeemable at the company store and as payment of rent in company housing.

Funny thing about that company housing is that it could only be occupied by employees of the company and if an employee happened to die due to an environment unregulated by state or federal law, the widow and children were swiftly evicted from company property with no gratuity.

I haven't even gotten into the workplace violence committed by company goons in order to quell any dissent yet.

We can discuss these historical events further, but I think you are already catching on to the point that your presumption of the infallibility of the free market has no historical basis in fact.

Run along now.
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Re: Ideology

Postby lachisbackisback » Sun Oct 30, 2016 6:49 pm

First, there's no gun. I don't know anyone who would prefer to pay no taxes but also have absolutely no infrastructure. Everyone obviously hates paying taxes, but no meaningful amount of people I'm aware of are rallying to eliminate roads, bridges, schools, health care, police, fire department and any number of other things that are crucial to nation building. I pay 13% sales tax on everything, in addition to personal taxes, and I haven't used a hospital at all since I was under the age of 10, but I'm still happy to pay taxes that partially go to health care because I like the idea of people's lives not being ruined due to having no coverage. I'm certain the majority of Canadians would agree. Those who feel they're literally being robbed by the government can lobby the government, emigrate elsewhere or comes to their senses and realize whatever libertarian-esque system they're hoping to get enacted is ridiculous.

Secondly, your system would be a lot more appealing if everyone had the same opportunity and ample opportunity to be successful. There's such vast corruption, in conjunction with large corporations having absolute strangleholds on the majority of capital and means of production, that the system you're envisioning would simply be like it is now in the States, only much worse.

If you want to lay out your theory in great detail, I'm listening. I'll genuinely consider it. If you're going down the road I think you're going down, though, I'm telling you right now that you can't assert that empathy for other human beings is inherently more illogical. It's only more illogical if you can objectively prove that humans other than one's self hold no inherent value, which is impossible to prove. With that said, lay out your argument.
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Re: Ideology

Postby SDBucs » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:03 pm

So are we still pretending there's no growing anti-white culture?
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Re: Ideology

Postby Rocker » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:35 pm

Get a new ****ing gimmick.
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Re: Ideology

Postby SDBucs » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:40 pm

Sorry for my whitelash today
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Re: Ideology

Postby Buc2 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:53 am

SDBucs wrote:Sorry for my whitelash today

My white ass has one thing to say...stfu.
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Re: Ideology

Postby deltbucs » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:29 pm

SDBucs wrote:Sorry for my whitelash today

You're a child.
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Re: Ideology

Postby SDBucs » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:23 pm

That MTV "Hey white males" video has sure been a hit.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Rocker » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:44 pm

Huh. All this time, Go_Bucs was SDBucs alternate username.

Consider my flabber pretty much gasted.
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Re: Ideology

Postby SDBucs » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:56 pm

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Nobody more racist than a white liberal.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Dec 21, 2016 1:58 pm

Somebody tell Spanky how his meme is complete bullshit.
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Re: Ideology

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:04 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Somebody tell Spanky how his meme is complete bullshit.

Why bother? It's clear he's been drinking bleach to keep up on his whiteness.
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Re: Ideology

Postby SDBucs » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:13 pm

MADISON (WKOW) -- It's a class that will be offered spring semester of 2017 and it's titled,"The Problem of Whiteness." It's jarring to some, but to others the boldness of the name is welcomed.

"I think it definitely needs to be this bold," said Michael Davis, a PhD student at UW-Madison.

The class comes after a year full of several racial incidents on campus.

"This campus is not safe, for various reasons," he added.

The class description reads in part, "After all, since white supremacy was created by white people, is it not white folks who have the greatest responsibility to eradicate it? Our class begins here."

"It's not vague or arbitrary. It's specifically focusing in on whiteness, and that's necessary to understand how our social and political systems work," Davis said when talking about his interest in taking the course.

But not everyone is on the same page, including republican State Representative Dave Murphy of Greenville.

"I think when you name a course something like this, it's very polarizing," Murphy said.

He believes UW-Madison is a place where dialogue and discussions should take place, but believes this particular title and class is a step in the wrong direction.

"When you name a course "The Problem of Whiteness," you're framing the discussion before it's even had," he said.

Davis says he doesn't think that's the case. He realizes UW-Madison has a long way to go, but added there are lessons from this course that can be meaningful for a campus that's seen a number of racial incidents in 2016.

"I think the people who take the course will definitely have a deeper understanding of how racism works and how it intersects with other things like gender, class, sexuality," Davis added.

Representative Murphy said the class's title could potentially affect white donors and tax payers who give money to UW-Madison. However, Davis believes donating isn't enough when a population feels unwelcomed. Instead, he urges them to step in and act.

Meantime, UW-Madison officials sent out a statement defending the class saying, "The course title refers to the challenge of understanding white identity and non-white identity across the globe. We believe this course, which is one of thousands offered at our university, will benefit students who are interested in developing a deeper understanding of race issues. The course is a challenge and response to racism of all kinds." It went on to say, "the course is not required."



Jesssuus I'm taking crazy pills
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:05 pm

Tell me. Were you raised a white supremacist or did you come into this later in life?

Since this thread is about WHY we all believe in the things we believe in... I figure its a valid question.

In the future, put your spam in another thread. This one is for discussion of ideology, not things that make you think you are taking crazy pills.
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Re: Ideology

Postby NYBF » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:31 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Tell me. Were you raised a white supremacist or did you come into this later in life?

Since this thread is about WHY we all believe in the things we believe in... I figure its a valid question.

In the future, put your spam in another thread. This one is for discussion of ideology, not things that make you think you are taking crazy pills.


Just a guess, but I'll say "later in life." I don't know that a white supremacist would have been vacationing in Thailand. Maybe that has something to do with it. Non-whites broke his brain, so now he's out for revenge.
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Re: Ideology

Postby bucfanclw » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:39 am

NYBF wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Tell me. Were you raised a white supremacist or did you come into this later in life?

Since this thread is about WHY we all believe in the things we believe in... I figure its a valid question.

In the future, put your spam in another thread. This one is for discussion of ideology, not things that make you think you are taking crazy pills.


Just a guess, but I'll say "later in life." I don't know that a white supremacist would have been vacationing in Thailand. Maybe that has something to do with it. Non-whites broke his brain, so now he's out for revenge.

I'm relatively sure SD isn't java. SD is a brainwashed kid, java is just a troll.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Corsair » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:34 am

SD bragged about his Thailand trip with his buddies.

I think he and Java have a lot in common, but they aren't the same.
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Re: Ideology

Postby SDBucs » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:46 pm

Apparently acknowledging reality makes me a white supremacist but people saying how whites are better and have some special privilege does not matter.

And instead of acknowledging a real thing I get name called and joked about.

Good ol libs.

And this is in this thread because I cited part of my political ideology as being impacted by clear anti-whiteness in our society. You laugh and deny it, I provide numerous examples, you laugh and call me racist.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:12 pm

SDBucs wrote:Apparently acknowledging reality makes me a white supremacist but people saying how whites are better and have some special privilege does not matter.

And instead of acknowledging a real thing I get name called and joked about.

Good ol libs.

And this is in this thread because I cited part of my political ideology as being impacted by clear anti-whiteness in our society. You laugh and deny it, I provide numerous examples, you laugh and call me racist.

I called you a white supremacist, not a racist.
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Re: Ideology

Postby SDBucs » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:45 pm

Oh theres been plenty of it
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