Ideology

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Re: Ideology

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:38 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:No, that's just crazy if anyone thinks that it could actually succeed in the present.


why? why is the present any different than the past? What disqualifiers do we now possess as humans that would make an attempt at communism in modern times any more of bad idea than the past? because of the examples of failures? Every form of government has been tried and has failed, multiple times each, throughout human history. Save perhaps a zerg-like hivemind ;)

just wondering what your reasoning - honest question. I don't advocate for communism by any means either, just wondering


Should I have said present and past? I thought we had already established that Communism has never worked. People and the reasons it fails are the same now. If in some distant future human nature changes somehow, it cold succeed, but not currently.

And many forms of government succeed, some to varying standards, but by most people's definition Communism is not one of those.
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:42 am

DreadNaught wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote: Every form of government has been tried and has failed, multiple times each, throughout human history.


Has America failed? If so, by what standard compared to the other forms of governments?

America isn't perfect. But it's the best form of government the world has ever known imo and has allowed the freest and most prosperous nation (for all races and genders) to flourish despite it's faults.


America is a Republic / Democracy. Republics and democracies have failed before.

One could also argue that America started as a Republic, morphed into a democracy, and has devolved into an oligarchy over the last 60-70 years. If the power of a vote gets diluted far enough down - and we are to trust that study that says that, regardless of the amount of public support any new bill has, the chance if it passing in congress is at a flat 30% (that youtube video someone posted here a while back, maybe it was delt, "how corruption is legal in the US") - then its reasonable to say that our democracy behaves more closely to an oligarchy instead of a true democracy.

Time will tell whether America failed. I'm sure at the height of the Roman republic people never would have imagined its fate
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:47 am

i'm about to mdb ya'll:

what's the length of existence for a form of government to be considered a "success"?

250 years? there's been quite a few different types to make it this far

100 years? been countless. I'm sure for those few generations, their societies seemed like successes

20 years? you don't think, when the USSR was winning the space race for that period of time, that communism was considered a success??

5 years?

500 years? maybe this is a good marker? but then if they fail after 500 years, isn't that still a failure?

1,000 years? same

Infinite years? we'll never see this

So where's the line?
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Re: Ideology

Postby uscbucsfan » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:52 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Has America failed? If so, by what standard compared to the other forms of governments?

America isn't perfect. But it's the best form of government the world has ever known imo and has allowed the freest and most prosperous nation (for all races and genders) to flourish despite it's faults.


America is a Republic / Democracy. Republics and democracies have failed before.

One could also argue that America started as a Republic, morphed into a democracy, and has devolved into an oligarchy over the last 60-70 years. If the power of a vote gets diluted far enough down - and we are to trust that study that says that, regardless of the amount of public support any new bill has, the chance if it passing in congress is at a flat 30% (that youtube video someone posted here a while back, maybe it was delt, "how corruption is legal in the US") - then its reasonable to say that our democracy behaves more closely to an oligarchy instead of a true democracy.

Time will tell whether America failed. I'm sure at the height of the Roman republic people never would have imagined its fate


America has never been a Direct Democracy. It's always functioned as a hybrid between a Republic and Representative Democracy.

People only call America an Oligarchy when they aren't getting things they want or things they perceive the country wants.
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:57 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
Has America failed? If so, by what standard compared to the other forms of governments?

America isn't perfect. But it's the best form of government the world has ever known imo and has allowed the freest and most prosperous nation (for all races and genders) to flourish despite it's faults.


America is a Republic / Democracy. Republics and democracies have failed before.

One could also argue that America started as a Republic, morphed into a democracy, and has devolved into an oligarchy over the last 60-70 years. If the power of a vote gets diluted far enough down - and we are to trust that study that says that, regardless of the amount of public support any new bill has, the chance if it passing in congress is at a flat 30% (that youtube video someone posted here a while back, maybe it was delt, "how corruption is legal in the US") - then its reasonable to say that our democracy behaves more closely to an oligarchy instead of a true democracy.

Time will tell whether America failed. I'm sure at the height of the Roman republic people never would have imagined its fate


We've never been a Democracy, but all true democracies (mob rule) have failed, so I agree on that.

We were and still are a Democratic Republic as evidence of the 2016 election. Our Constitution (our governing document) was an original creation by our founders based on debated ideas and wisdom, it wasn't copied (although some best practices were incorporated) from a failed form of government the founders thought they would just re-implement. Which is often the argument for Communism (i.e. We'll get it "right" this time).
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Re: Ideology

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:58 am

beardmcdoug wrote:i'm about to mdb ya'll:

what's the length of existence for a form of government to be considered a "success"?

250 years? there's been quite a few different types to make it this far

100 years? been countless. I'm sure for those few generations, their societies seemed like successes

20 years? you don't think, when the USSR was winning the space race for that period of time, that communism was considered a success??

5 years?

500 years? maybe this is a good marker? but then if they fail after 500 years, isn't that still a failure?

1,000 years? same

Infinite years? we'll never see this

So where's the line?


This is where the cat/ledge gif is needed...

Seriously, though, I would think 500 years could be considered a decent barometer to consider a specific government a success. After all, nothing lasts forever.
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:00 pm

that's a good response, DN
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:07 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
why? why is the present any different than the past? What disqualifiers do we now possess as humans that would make an attempt at communism in modern times any more of bad idea than the past? because of the examples of failures? Every form of government has been tried and has failed, multiple times each, throughout human history. Save perhaps a zerg-like hivemind ;)

just wondering what your reasoning - honest question. I don't advocate for communism by any means either, just wondering


Should I have said present and past? I thought we had already established that Communism has never worked. People and the reasons it fails are the same now. If in some distant future human nature changes somehow, it cold succeed, but not currently.

And many forms of government succeed, some to varying standards, but by most people's definition Communism is not one of those.


'Communism will work if human nature changes' - I think that is fair.

But until then, let's remind ourselves Communism has failed everywhere throughout history and been TERRIBLE for it's citizens. I'm not talking about perceived social injustice terrible either. I'm talking starvation, rations, gulags, and prison camps. Look at present day iterations in Cuba and Venezuela where they are still trying to 'get it right'. Anyone who thinks they want to live in that type of society should really sit down with someone who has.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:41 pm

Communism will NEVER work unless you have the following two things happen:

1.) Near infinite resources
2.) Near equal capabilities of people


As long as we have finite resources, they will be divided in proportion to some rule -- at the dawn of civilization who ever was physically strongest and most aggressive got the most ****...then as we collectivized under kings/monarchs, etc...it was whoever was born into it....now it is whoever is most productive/valued as defined by a quasi free-market.

The fact of the matter is human need and want are basically infinite. People will always want more. And that's a ****ing brilliant thing! It's been the key to human development for thousands of years.



At the very heart of people, we are individuals...we know we are all different from each other. We have different needs, different skills, different talents, different opinions, different values, different work ethics, different biology, , etc etc. Any system that tries to force people to collectivize and get rid of their individuality and put the common state ahead of it and forego private property, is not only anti-nature, it is bound to fail miserably.

I mean the hippie communes of the 60's and 70's couldn't even do it and they all believed in that Marxist crap
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:08 pm

Why are we still debating communism if we're universally opposed to it?
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:11 pm

No one is debating whether we should adopt it. We are discussing claims people are making about it. Seems a reasonable thing to do if one is bored
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:12 pm

yeah I mean after reading all this, it was a good reminder and the needle moved a little closer to "no ****ing way" for me /shrug
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:13 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:No one is debating whether we should adopt it. We are discussing claims people are making about it. Seems a reasonable thing to do if one is bored

Wake me up when we start taking a good, hard look at what needs to be done with the current system here.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:16 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:No one is debating whether we should adopt it. We are discussing claims people are making about it. Seems a reasonable thing to do if one is bored

Wake me up when we start taking a good, hard look at what needs to be done with the current system here.



Ok
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:18 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:yeah I mean after reading all this, it was a good reminder and the needle moved a little closer to "no ****ing way" for me /shrug




Given how in tune you are with human nature in other areas, I’m surprised it’s not a complete non-starter for you. As a species we are wired to be competitive and always wanting more. It’s fundamentally why we thrive ... and likely will be our eventual down fall too :)
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:21 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:yeah I mean after reading all this, it was a good reminder and the needle moved a little closer to "no ****ing way" for me /shrug




Given how in tune you are with human nature in other areas, I’m surprised it’s not a complete non-starter for you. As a species we are wired to be competitive and always wanting more. It’s fundamentally why we thrive ... and likely will be our eventual down fall too :)


it's been hard to shake my naive/idealistic roots ;)
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:23 pm

Ha
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:41 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:No one is debating whether we should adopt it. We are discussing claims people are making about it. Seems a reasonable thing to do if one is bored

Wake me up when we start taking a good, hard look at what needs to be done with the current system here.


Sorry, I get triggered by Communism talk. ;)
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Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:46 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Wake me up when we start taking a good, hard look at what needs to be done with the current system here.


Sorry, I get triggered by Communism talk. ;)

I guess it's still relevant. Today is the anniversary of the Tianaemann square massacre.
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:51 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Wake me up when we start taking a good, hard look at what needs to be done with the current system here.


Sorry, I get triggered by Communism talk. ;)



We need to create a safe space forum
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:58 pm

ok this is where this conversation, in my opinion, merges directly into the whole automation thing. Maybe we should continue it over on that thread, but for now...

let's just assume, for the sake of this discussion, that over the next 50 or so years, automation DOESN'T create new jobs that replace the ones that it takes over... which isn't exactly some stretch... and we lose, say 10% of our jobs per decade, to automation, from 2050-2100...

what form of government / ideology is realistically compatible with a scenario where there are only half or fewer the available jobs, per capita, that there are now?

This (IMO) impending reality is the only thing that makes me say, "OK, capitalism works for us now, it's great, we compete, and we're all the better for it" - but in this shrinking-jobs paradigm, isn't some form of "socialism" going to be a necessity?

I mean, even simply - if you've got half the jobs, and the same number of workers, what's that going to do to the value of our labor? We'd be even more a dime a dozen, or we'd all end up working in some sort of bullshit uber service (pun sort of intended) economy where everybody is essentially waiting on eachother. Given human nature, and the need for the mind to be challenged, to each its own accord, do you think that will be satisfactory? Or maybe that would work and our entire society would be this sort of "everybody earns a living by helping eachother out with micro services (transportation, food, entertainment)", and our "competition" outlet would be in games, etc? I mean I guess I could see that?

wtf did I just type
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:02 pm

so the question is what form of government should we use if the unemployment rate is 50%....am I reading that correctly?
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:03 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:so the question is what form of government should we use if the unemployment rate is 50%....am I reading that correctly?


yeah, basically
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:06 pm

a lot would depend on how we got there and what's left...but i'm guessing a society like that would need an extremely wide safety net.



you would have to have a system where income and/or products and services wasn't based strictly on work wages i guess...but one that rewarded people who did work.
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:19 pm

yeah, and who stretches out that net? It's gotta be the gubment, right? Not that I want it to be, but what else can do that?

And the rewarding those that worked thing - once upon a time, I sort of imagined a "sign on to public works projects and get rewarded" sort of thing (like, "hey we need this monorail built, who wants to help - you'll get a name on a plaque - or more like you'll gain "points" in our online database - but then again, if you're earning "points" to redeem for things, that's just like earning money.) And anyways, the logistics would probably be a nightmare in tracking and scheduling - and not all workers are equally skilled and swappable - and even "easy" jobs take learning and training to do a good job, quality of work and product would go down, and some jobs take years to get even marginally good at - and then, this paradigm supports a reality where people no longer invest long term into "deep thought" endeavors - like really getting into physics, etc.

It's just one of those things that I think is going to so radically shake our societies to the core that we need to start planning like yesterday.

but I just can't see how you ride the "available jobs" slope down safely without equal measure increase of government-involved safety net. If left to the free market, the value of our work is going to plummet, nobody will earn a livable wage, and we'll all live in absolute squalor
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:19 pm

BMD -- have you ever watched the TED talks on this topic -- automation / unemployment (not the economy to go with it)? There are probably about a dozen of them. There are some good contradictory opinions.
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Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:21 pm

We already have socialism in America in various forms. I'm certainly not against social programs. I just think they need to be debated b/c the cost always falls on the taxpayer and implementation or expansion of such programs should be incremental and measured.

In this theory of automation devastating the job market we'd have to see how it effects society. To this point we're still able to create jobs at good rate to where it's not an issue. But I agree it's not a stretch to think that won't be the case in 40-50 years.

As Zarni pointed out, if we can get to a point where automation has made resources infinite (or atleast abundant or reproducible) in addition to making the individual capabilities of humans largely irrelevant (b/c robots do everything for us) then I could see a drastic change to America (and civilization) as we know it in terms of an economic model.

I do think America will always be a Democratic Republic unless we are defeated in a war. To change that part of the Constitution requires WAY too much support and we are no where close to that right now.

As technology continues to improve and humans become more mobile (cheaper and easier to move) I would like to see more power go to the states to create competition. I think we'll see this in California in the next 10-20 years as they become 2 states, or the states lines are redrawn.

Let the deep blue states pursue their agenda and if people want to move there than they can. If people want to pay lower taxes and shoot guns they can live in Texas. As long we share some key 'first principles' that make us all uniquely American I think it could work.
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:22 pm

no I haven't, I'll maybe check them out. I like asking the stupid questions first though before getting the outright answer :smokingred:
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Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:22 pm

beardmcdoug wrote:yeah, and who stretches out that net? It's gotta be the gubment, right? Not that I want it to be, but what else can do that?

And the rewarding those that worked thing - once upon a time, I sort of imagined a "sign on to public works projects and get rewarded" sort of thing (like, "hey we need this monorail built, who wants to help - you'll get a name on a plaque - or more like you'll gain "points" in our online database - but then again, if you're earning "points" to redeem for things, that's just like earning money.) And anyways, the logistics would probably be a nightmare in tracking and scheduling - and not all workers are equally skilled and swappable - and even "easy" jobs take learning and training to do a good job, quality of work and product would go down, and some jobs take years to get even marginally good at - and then, this paradigm supports a reality where people no longer invest long term into "deep thought" endeavors - like really getting into physics, etc.

It's just one of those things that I think is going to so radically shake our societies to the core that we need to start planning like yesterday.

but I just can't see how you ride the "available jobs" slope down safely without equal measure increase of government-involved safety net. If left to the free market, the value of our work is going to plummet, nobody will earn a livable wage, and we'll all live in absolute squalor



I would say that if we are in a society of 50%+ unemployment the gov't would have to step in.

But as you know from my previous posts on this, I don't think anything like this happens. I think automation will continue to raise the standard of living just like it has done since time immemorial.

I think the market will always correct for these things....remember the robotic workers and their owners (business people) only get wealth if there is a market to exchange money for their goods. If there is no market, there need be no supply. If there is no supply, then no one has anything.
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Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Tue Jun 05, 2018 2:27 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:yeah, and who stretches out that net? It's gotta be the gubment, right? Not that I want it to be, but what else can do that?

And the rewarding those that worked thing - once upon a time, I sort of imagined a "sign on to public works projects and get rewarded" sort of thing (like, "hey we need this monorail built, who wants to help - you'll get a name on a plaque - or more like you'll gain "points" in our online database - but then again, if you're earning "points" to redeem for things, that's just like earning money.) And anyways, the logistics would probably be a nightmare in tracking and scheduling - and not all workers are equally skilled and swappable - and even "easy" jobs take learning and training to do a good job, quality of work and product would go down, and some jobs take years to get even marginally good at - and then, this paradigm supports a reality where people no longer invest long term into "deep thought" endeavors - like really getting into physics, etc.

It's just one of those things that I think is going to so radically shake our societies to the core that we need to start planning like yesterday.

but I just can't see how you ride the "available jobs" slope down safely without equal measure increase of government-involved safety net. If left to the free market, the value of our work is going to plummet, nobody will earn a livable wage, and we'll all live in absolute squalor



I would say that if we are in a society of 50%+ unemployment the gov't would have to step in.

But as you know from my previous posts on this, I don't think anything like this happens. I think automation will continue to raise the standard of living just like it has done since time immemorial.

I think the market will always correct for these things....remember the robotic workers and their owners (business people) only get wealth if there is a market to exchange money for their goods. If there is no market, there need be no supply. If there is no supply, then no one has anything.


oh yeah, that's a good and obvious point I feel like I have been missing...
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