Ideology

A Place to respectfully discuss those topics that you should never discuss.
post

Re: Ideology

Postby Rocker » Thu May 10, 2018 9:48 pm

Damn near exactly where Zwoop pegged you, too.
Image
User avatar
Rocker
 
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:23 am
Location: Upper deck of the Old Sombrero
Has thanked: 224 times
Been thanked: 214 times

Re: Ideology

Postby The Outsider » Thu May 10, 2018 9:50 pm

Rocker wrote:Damn near exactly where Zwoop pegged you, too.



Well, weed does make one sedentary.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 238 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Rocker » Thu May 10, 2018 11:26 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Rocker wrote:Damn near exactly where Zwoop pegged you, too.



Well, weed does make one sedentary.


I had a quip, but I’ve been drinking...
Image
User avatar
Rocker
 
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:23 am
Location: Upper deck of the Old Sombrero
Has thanked: 224 times
Been thanked: 214 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Thu May 10, 2018 11:42 pm

Rocker wrote:
The Outsider wrote:

Well, weed does make one sedentary.


I had a quip, but I’ve been drinking...

Dude, I listened to John Denver and watched 4 episodes of star trek TNG.








What were we talking about?
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Rocker » Fri May 11, 2018 12:14 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Rocker wrote:
I had a quip, but I’ve been drinking...

Dude, I listened to John Denver and watched 4 episodes of star trek TNG.








What were we talking about?


The pros and cons of sprinkling Gorgonzola atop a baked ziti, of course.
Image
User avatar
Rocker
 
Posts: 3924
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:23 am
Location: Upper deck of the Old Sombrero
Has thanked: 224 times
Been thanked: 214 times

Re: Ideology

Postby uscbucsfan » Fri May 11, 2018 4:34 am

There are no cons
Image
User avatar
uscbucsfan
 
Posts: 4904
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:21 pm
Has thanked: 112 times
Been thanked: 137 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri May 11, 2018 10:48 am

The Outsider wrote:
Rocker wrote:Damn near exactly where Zwoop pegged you, too.



Well, weed does make one sedentary.


I’m just glad you didn’t go with the other meaning!
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Wed May 16, 2018 12:28 pm

Pretty interesting concession speech by Maajid Nawaz, specifically the final 5-6 minutes (from around the 7:20 second mark).

Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 13099
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 538 times
Been thanked: 566 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed May 16, 2018 12:40 pm

I heard this guy the other day on NPR (I think) ... he's got quite the story
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: Ideology

Postby DreadNaught » Wed May 16, 2018 12:57 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I heard this guy the other day on NPR (I think) ... he's got quite the story


Pretty fascinating guy. I got familiarized via Sam Harris a couple months back (who I heard about via Joe Rogan a couple years ago).

It's weird how Joe Rogan has introduced me to the likes of Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris, The Weinsteins, and pretty much the rest of this group.
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 13099
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 538 times
Been thanked: 566 times

Re: Ideology

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri May 25, 2018 9:30 am

DN I'm dying

User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 3128
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 379 times
Been thanked: 249 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri May 25, 2018 2:44 pm

heh...

Image
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby The Outsider » Fri May 25, 2018 6:15 pm

*Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism

FTFY
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 238 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sun May 27, 2018 6:37 pm

The Outsider wrote:*Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism

FTFY

The whole thing really gives fascism the ol WTF, bro?

Star Trek: utopian socialism. Exists because there's no scarcity. No want. You can replicate anything, so there's no need for currency. Inequality is impossible.

Logan's Run: Dystopian communism. Communism cannot survive with great scarcity. The greater the scarcity, the more people become a slave to the collective.

Star Wars: Dystopian fascism. Given the technology of the series, the ability to live without scarcity, its odd that an emporer would even be plausable. What's to rule? Everybody can be as they are and has the means to do so. So why you buggin?

Mad Max: Dystopian Libertarianism. One guy is free, but everyone else is trapped into warring factions to fight over the sacarcity. One man stands alone.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby The Outsider » Sun May 27, 2018 6:52 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
The Outsider wrote:*Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism

FTFY

The whole thing really gives fascism the ol WTF, bro?

Star Trek: utopian socialism. Exists because there's no scarcity. No want. You can replicate anything, so there's no need for currency. Inequality is impossible.

Logan's Run: Dystopian communism. Communism cannot survive with great scarcity. The greater the scarcity, the more people become a slave to the collective.

Star Wars: Dystopian fascism. Given the technology of the series, the ability to live without scarcity, its odd that an emporer would even be plausable. What's to rule? Everybody can be as they are and has the means to do so. So why you buggin?

Mad Max: Dystopian Libertarianism. One guy is free, but everyone else is trapped into warring factions to fight over the sacarcity. One man stands alone.


In regards to Star Wars, they don't have replicators or the like, and they are a society in flux from 3 or so back to back wars. Hell, even in the best of days of the Old Republic things were rather fragmentary. Scarcity makes sense in Star Wars.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 238 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sun May 27, 2018 6:55 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:The whole thing really gives fascism the ol WTF, bro?

Star Trek: utopian socialism. Exists because there's no scarcity. No want. You can replicate anything, so there's no need for currency. Inequality is impossible.

Logan's Run: Dystopian communism. Communism cannot survive with great scarcity. The greater the scarcity, the more people become a slave to the collective.

Star Wars: Dystopian fascism. Given the technology of the series, the ability to live without scarcity, its odd that an emporer would even be plausable. What's to rule? Everybody can be as they are and has the means to do so. So why you buggin?

Mad Max: Dystopian Libertarianism. One guy is free, but everyone else is trapped into warring factions to fight over the sacarcity. One man stands alone.


In regards to Star Wars, they don't have replicators or the like, and they are a society in flux from 3 or so back to back wars. Hell, even in the best of days of the Old Republic things were rather fragmentary. Scarcity makes sense in Star Wars.

Faster than light travel and the ability for limitless energy and they can't feed everyone?
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby The Outsider » Sun May 27, 2018 7:02 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
In regards to Star Wars, they don't have replicators or the like, and they are a society in flux from 3 or so back to back wars. Hell, even in the best of days of the Old Republic things were rather fragmentary. Scarcity makes sense in Star Wars.

Faster than light travel and the ability for limitless energy and they can't feed everyone?


Your basic flaw here is the assumption that this myriad of fictional universes work like ours does.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 238 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Sun May 27, 2018 7:05 pm

The Outsider wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Faster than light travel and the ability for limitless energy and they can't feed everyone?


Your basic flaw here is the assumption that this myriad of fictional universes work like ours does.

One would assume that's what the rebellion was fighting for. But it seems odd that a post scarcity tech society would be susceptible to imperialism.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby The Outsider » Sun May 27, 2018 7:23 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
The Outsider wrote:
Your basic flaw here is the assumption that this myriad of fictional universes work like ours does.

One would assume that's what the rebellion was fighting for. But it seems odd that a post scarcity tech society would be susceptible to imperialism.



It's all Lucas's fault. Also, the Rebellion was just fighting for the return of democracy. Even the Republic had inequality and scarcity.
Image
User avatar
The Outsider
 
Posts: 4343
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:02 pm
Location: Gettin' all up in ya
Has thanked: 66 times
Been thanked: 238 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Caradoc » Tue May 29, 2018 8:00 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:The whole thing really gives fascism the ol WTF, bro?

Star Trek: utopian socialism. Exists because there's no scarcity. No want. You can replicate anything, so there's no need for currency. Inequality is impossible.

Logan's Run: Dystopian communism. Communism cannot survive with great scarcity. The greater the scarcity, the more people become a slave to the collective.

Star Wars: Dystopian fascism. Given the technology of the series, the ability to live without scarcity, its odd that an emporer would even be plausable. What's to rule? Everybody can be as they are and has the means to do so. So why you buggin?

Mad Max: Dystopian Libertarianism. One guy is free, but everyone else is trapped into warring factions to fight over the sacarcity. One man stands alone.


Not really a fair breakdown IMHO, but I agree somewhat.

Star Trek: utopian socialism. Exists because there's no scarcity. No want. You can replicate anything, so there's no need for currency. Inequality is impossible.

Inequality of material possessions may be impossible, but more important forms would still exist. What Trek never shows though is the 90% + of humanity that, after no longer needing to work for survival or betterment, sits around all day doing nothing but playing games and ingesting their favorite recreational drug/beverage because they have nothing to do and nothing to offer in an economic sense, and the malaise a people perpetually unable to achieve earned success would endure. A paradise for those with the very greatest drive and talent, but the rest would likely be Lotus Eaters. (Or so resentful that they weren't given a starship to command, because they were just as talented as Kirk/Picard --their mommy told them so -- that they revolt against the idea of there being actual differences between people)


Logan's Run: Dystopian communism. Communism cannot survive with great scarcity. The greater the scarcity, the more people become a slave to the collective.

True-ish, but so short it misses important implications The problem is, this (scarcity) becomes a circular event in communism, with the snake forever eating it's own tale. Communism always creates scarcity (because it fails to create wealth), resulting in a necessarily more powerful and more ruthless government as keeping the plebes in check becomes more problematic. Logan's Run, from many communist perspectives, is actually Utopian. The control of all resources, information, and thought, along with equal outcomes is a dream come true for many communist leaders. The lack of concern over the deaths of the people needed to achieve this also mirrors pretty much every communist state in history.Logan's Run is really more a metaphor for allof communism rather than a specifically dystopian version

Star Wars: Dystopian fascism. Given the technology of the series, the ability to live without scarcity, its odd that an emporer would even be plausable. What's to rule? Everybody can be as they are and has the means to do so. So why you buggin?

I think the "Dystopian Fascism" label is a misnomer thrown in there because people can only relate an evil government to Fascism as they have never been educated to understand Communism as equally or more evil, and dictatorships loom small in the imagination compared to Nazis. Scarcity is irrelevant in the case of a strongman seizing power. IMHO', Star Wars appears a simple Dictatorship, despite the various trappings of fascism scattered about, Lucas might have intended the empire to represent fascism (though he first claimed it represented the US with the rebels being the North Vietnamese, he just used the trappings of the 'recognizable evil'), but he does nothing other than window dress that

Mad Max: Dystopian Libertarianism. One guy is free, but everyone else is trapped into warring factions to fight over the scarcity. One man stands alone.

Scarcity is the functioning issue here, for sure. This one the "Dystopian Libertarianism" label is definitely thrown in intentionally to throw some shade at libertarians. Mad Max is Anarchy, plain and simple. Multiple small groups from gang to tribe size, no real rule of law and no recognized government. That is NOT what libertarianism is at all. That's actually a typical strawman argument throw at libertarians all the time.
Caradoc
 
Posts: 4538
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:30 pm
Has thanked: 233 times
Been thanked: 134 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 29, 2018 8:46 pm

Caradoc wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:The whole thing really gives fascism the ol WTF, bro?

Star Trek: utopian socialism. Exists because there's no scarcity. No want. You can replicate anything, so there's no need for currency. Inequality is impossible.

Logan's Run: Dystopian communism. Communism cannot survive with great scarcity. The greater the scarcity, the more people become a slave to the collective.

Star Wars: Dystopian fascism. Given the technology of the series, the ability to live without scarcity, its odd that an emporer would even be plausable. What's to rule? Everybody can be as they are and has the means to do so. So why you buggin?

Mad Max: Dystopian Libertarianism. One guy is free, but everyone else is trapped into warring factions to fight over the sacarcity. One man stands alone.


Not really a fair breakdown IMHO, but I agree somewhat.

Star Trek: utopian socialism. Exists because there's no scarcity. No want. You can replicate anything, so there's no need for currency. Inequality is impossible.

Inequality of material possessions may be impossible, but more important forms would still exist. What Trek never shows though is the 90% + of humanity that, after no longer needing to work for survival or betterment, sits around all day doing nothing but playing games and ingesting their favorite recreational drug/beverage because they have nothing to do and nothing to offer in an economic sense, and the malaise a people perpetually unable to achieve earned success would endure. A paradise for those with the very greatest drive and talent, but the rest would likely be Lotus Eaters. (Or so resentful that they weren't given a starship to command, because they were just as talented as Kirk/Picard --their mommy told them so -- that they revolt against the idea of there being actual differences between people)


Logan's Run: Dystopian communism. Communism cannot survive with great scarcity. The greater the scarcity, the more people become a slave to the collective.

True-ish, but so short it misses important implications The problem is, this (scarcity) becomes a circular event in communism, with the snake forever eating it's own tale. Communism always creates scarcity (because it fails to create wealth), resulting in a necessarily more powerful and more ruthless government as keeping the plebes in check becomes more problematic. Logan's Run, from many communist perspectives, is actually Utopian. The control of all resources, information, and thought, along with equal outcomes is a dream come true for many communist leaders. The lack of concern over the deaths of the people needed to achieve this also mirrors pretty much every communist state in history.Logan's Run is really more a metaphor for allof communism rather than a specifically dystopian version

Star Wars: Dystopian fascism. Given the technology of the series, the ability to live without scarcity, its odd that an emporer would even be plausable. What's to rule? Everybody can be as they are and has the means to do so. So why you buggin?

I think the "Dystopian Fascism" label is a misnomer thrown in there because people can only relate an evil government to Fascism as they have never been educated to understand Communism as equally or more evil, and dictatorships loom small in the imagination compared to Nazis. Scarcity is irrelevant in the case of a strongman seizing power. IMHO', Star Wars appears a simple Dictatorship, despite the various trappings of fascism scattered about, Lucas might have intended the empire to represent fascism (though he first claimed it represented the US with the rebels being the North Vietnamese, he just used the trappings of the 'recognizable evil'), but he does nothing other than window dress that

Mad Max: Dystopian Libertarianism. One guy is free, but everyone else is trapped into warring factions to fight over the scarcity. One man stands alone.

Scarcity is the functioning issue here, for sure. This one the "Dystopian Libertarianism" label is definitely thrown in intentionally to throw some shade at libertarians. Mad Max is Anarchy, plain and simple. Multiple small groups from gang to tribe size, no real rule of law and no recognized government. That is NOT what libertarianism is at all. That's actually a typical strawman argument throw at libertarians all the time.

You should write posts like this more often. This is good stuff.

Mad Max is rugged individualism to the 10th power. I don't pretend that the Mad Max universe is where Libertarians want to live, but because it's a dystopian future that is completely lawless, it puts those desirable traits of guile, self-sufficiency, and raw justice out there in such a way that would be right up the alley of any libertarian in the same way that Star Trek fires me up.

We should keep this going, I like the topic.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 29, 2018 9:06 pm

There’s nothing at all Libertarian about Mad Max

At its heart, Libertarianism is centered on the non-aggression principle. Sadly few understand this
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 29, 2018 9:20 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:There’s nothing at all Libertarian about Mad Max

At its heart, Libertarianism is centered on the non-aggression principle. Sadly few understand this

Starting with libertarians.

Seriously, you guys talk about everyone minding their own business right up until it's time for everyone to mind thier own business. Then you get all authoritarian about things you don't like that have nothing to do with you.

Either you want the world shaped into what you would have it be, or you just want to be left alone.

Pick one. Stick with it.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 29, 2018 9:22 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:There’s nothing at all Libertarian about Mad Max

At its heart, Libertarianism is centered on the non-aggression principle. Sadly few understand this

Starting with libertarians.

Seriously, you guys talk about everyone minding their own business right up until it's time for everyone to mind thier own business. Then you get all authoritarian about things you don't like that have nothing to do with you.

Either you want the world shaped into what you would have it be, or you just want to be left alone.

Pick one. Stick with it.




Lol. Sure
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 29, 2018 9:25 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Starting with libertarians.

Seriously, you guys talk about everyone minding their own business right up until it's time for everyone to mind thier own business. Then you get all authoritarian about things you don't like that have nothing to do with you.

Either you want the world shaped into what you would have it be, or you just want to be left alone.

Pick one. Stick with it.




Lol. Sure

Anarchy for rich people.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 29, 2018 9:29 pm

There is no anarchy whatsoever about Libertarianism

I once again refer you to the non-aggression principle


Maybe one day someone will write about it in a meme for you
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue May 29, 2018 9:36 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:There is no anarchy whatsoever about Libertarianism

I once again refer you to the non-aggression principle


Maybe one day someone will write about it in a meme for you

You're the libertarian. Educate the masses on the NAP. I won't stop you.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue May 29, 2018 10:04 pm

NAP - Libertarianism is based on a single ideal, the non-aggression principle, so libertarian rhetoric tends to be remarkably consistent. Libertarians oppose the initiation of force to achieve social or political goals. They reject “first-strike” force, fraud or theft against others; they only use force in self-defense. Those who violate this “non-aggression principle” are expected to make their victims whole as much as possible.


If you want more read Locke, Hume, Paine, Rothbard, Bastiat, O’Rourke, Hayek, Sowell, etc
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 6374
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 323 times
Been thanked: 284 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Ken Carson » Wed May 30, 2018 6:56 am

Zarniwoop wrote:NAP - Libertarianism is based on a single ideal, the non-aggression principle, so libertarian rhetoric tends to be remarkably consistent. Libertarians oppose the initiation of force to achieve social or political goals. They reject “first-strike” force, fraud or theft against others; they only use force in self-defense. Those who violate this “non-aggression principle” are expected to make their victims whole as much as possible.


If you want more read Locke, Hume, Paine, Rothbard, Bastiat, O’Rourke, Hayek, Sowell, etc

Salma Hayek can get as aggressive with me as she wants to...
Ken Carson
 
Posts: 3407
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:33 pm
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 184 times

Re: Ideology

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed May 30, 2018 8:10 am

Zarniwoop wrote:NAP - Libertarianism is based on a single ideal, the non-aggression principle, so libertarian rhetoric tends to be remarkably consistent. Libertarians oppose the initiation of force to achieve social or political goals. They reject “first-strike” force, fraud or theft against others; they only use force in self-defense. Those who violate this “non-aggression principle” are expected to make their victims whole as much as possible.


If you want more read Locke, Hume, Paine, Rothbard, Bastiat, O’Rourke, Hayek, Sowell, etc


I like this one from John Stewart Mill
"the only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others"

Of course, that leads us to what a libertarian would view as harm.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 13704
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Location: Crestucky
Has thanked: 149 times
Been thanked: 642 times

PreviousNext

post

Return to Politics and Religion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PanteraCanes and 13 guests