Random Political News

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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:52 am

The article is wishy washy on the circumstances that created West Virginia, but I understand because it was a complicated thing.

The counties of Virginia that voted not to secede from the US form what is now WV. The politicians that were left without a job from Virginia's secession formed "The restored government of Virginia" and claimed that they were the true government of Virginia since errbody else was a traitor.

Lincoln created the state by Proclimation in 1863 and it wasn't codified until it went before the Supreme Court after the war when Virginia tried to annex West Virginia.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:56 am

I would not be opposed to the possibility of states splitting provided we followed the constitution or amended it accordingly.

Things have drastically changed since we were originally founded as a country:

1.) Urban centers weren't nearly as big as they are now
2.) There wasn't such a massive disparity in population between the states as we have now




If we choose not to go that route, I wouldn't mind looking at changing the composition of Congress....our population has grown exponentially since 1776, yet we have the same number of people representing us. Just in the Senate...how can you have two senators representing tens of millions of people and their differing ideas? Mind you, I think its important to still keep the representation as is -- House based on population, Senate based on state.

Our congress people are as faceless as big corporations are now. They are so removed from the people they represent the agency problem is a nightmare
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:04 pm

There's long been talk of splitting the state of Washington along the Cascade mountains.

They want to name East Washington......"Liberty" with I assume Spokane as the Capitol.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:07 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I would not be opposed to the possibility of states splitting provided we followed the constitution or amended it accordingly.

Things have drastically changed since we were originally founded as a country:

1.) Urban centers weren't nearly as big as they are now
2.) There wasn't such a massive disparity in population between the states as we have now




If we choose not to go that route, I wouldn't mind looking at changing the composition of Congress....our population has grown exponentially since 1776, yet we have the same number of people representing us. Just in the Senate...how can you have two senators representing tens of millions of people and their differing ideas? Mind you, I think its important to still keep the representation as is -- House based on population, Senate based on state.

Our congress people are as faceless as big corporations are now. They are so removed from the people they represent the agency problem is a nightmare

Exactly. In Virginia, the entire state is represented in the U.S. Senate purely at the whim of NoVa. So, as long as NoVa remains Democrat, that's most likely the candidate that will be representing the entire state in D.C. Like it or not.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:11 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:I would not be opposed to the possibility of states splitting provided we followed the constitution or amended it accordingly.

Things have drastically changed since we were originally founded as a country:

1.) Urban centers weren't nearly as big as they are now
2.) There wasn't such a massive disparity in population between the states as we have now




If we choose not to go that route, I wouldn't mind looking at changing the composition of Congress....our population has grown exponentially since 1776, yet we have the same number of people representing us. Just in the Senate...how can you have two senators representing tens of millions of people and their differing ideas? Mind you, I think its important to still keep the representation as is -- House based on population, Senate based on state.

Our congress people are as faceless as big corporations are now. They are so removed from the people they represent the agency problem is a nightmare

Exactly. In Virginia, the entire state is represented in the U.S. Senate purely at the whim of NoVa. So, as long as NoVa remains Democrat, that's most likely the candidate that will be representing the entire state in D.C. Like it or not.



It will definitely give more voice to everyone

That being said, I could just imagine how the idiots in DC would handle this....then I kind of change my mind! :lol:
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:26 pm

I'm warming up to the proportional representation idea.

It has variations, but I'll give my watered down understanding of the idea and use Buc2's Virginia as an example.

Virginia has 11 house seats in DC. 7 are held by republicans, 4 by democrats. 6 are up for election in 2018. 3 D's and 3 R's

Virginia Voter under current system only votes in his district which as we all know gets watered down one way or the other via gerrymandering. If his district is not up, he doesn't have a vote.

In this new system, he would because congressmen would not be tied to a particular district. Voter steps up to his ballot and has six seats to vote on. If he votes party line, the six Republicans or Democrats he votes for have votes tallied and the top 6 vote getters among both parties are awarded the seats. This prompts congressional candidates to go state wide and cater to party minority voters in heavy majority areas.

Virginia is a big swing state right now so the 3 a piece would be the likely outcome. But after another election cycle for the other 5 seats, you would have a majority of one going one way or the other, say 6 Democrats and 5 Republicans.

In the Senate, you would have to have both Senators up for reelection at the same time. In a state like Virginia, that would mean one Republican and One Democrat.

The goal is to have the legislative bodies at the federal and state level be determined by votes and not district gerrymandering. In theory, Legislatures would have a party representation that would mirror the poulation of the state. So instead of Democrats holding all five seats in Connecticut, they would probably have 3 or 4.

Instead of Republicans holding 6 out of 7 seats in Alabama, they would have 4.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:54 pm

Doesn't that run the risk of large population centers drowning out smaller ones? We have flyover states in national politics, but wouldn't that create flyover counties for states?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:14 pm

Ken Carson wrote:Doesn't that run the risk of large population centers drowning out smaller ones? We have flyover states in national politics, but wouldn't that create flyover counties for states?

On the contrary.

I am a democrat in a suburban district that Republicans won't be giving up on anytime soon. However, I will have a vote that results in at least one representative of my choosing rather than simply voting for the sacrificial lamb that will have to eventually cede to the putz, Matt Goetz.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:06 pm

I wouldn't be in favor of going without district representation, it would defeat the purpose of my original post. I want people more closely aligned with the person they send to Washington...not less.

Granted, I realize that gerrymandering is a whole other problem and would be fruitful for another discussion
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Buc2 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:40 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Virginia has 11 house seats in DC. 7 are held by republicans, 4 by democrats.


Without even looking, let me take a wild guess...

4 democrats = Northern Virginia area, Richmond area, Hampton Roads Area (Norfolk/Newport News/Hampton). In other words, the high population urban areas.

11 republicans = spread out over the rest of the entire state.

Yet both our US Senators are democrats.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Tue Jan 16, 2018 4:58 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Virginia has 11 house seats in DC. 7 are held by republicans, 4 by democrats.


Without even looking, let me take a wild guess...

4 democrats = Northern Virginia area, Richmond area, Hampton Roads Area (Norfolk/Newport News/Hampton). In other words, the high population urban areas.

11 republicans = spread out over the rest of the entire state.

Yet both our US Senators are democrats.

Because land has this bad habit of not showing up to the polls...
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:11 pm

Buc2 wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Virginia has 11 house seats in DC. 7 are held by republicans, 4 by democrats.


Without even looking, let me take a wild guess...

4 democrats = Northern Virginia area, Richmond area, Hampton Roads Area (Norfolk/Newport News/Hampton). In other words, the high population urban areas.

11 republicans = spread out over the rest of the entire state.

Yet both our US Senators are democrats.

Mark Warner beat Ed Gillespie in 2014 by 17,000 votes. the libertarian siphoned off 53,000 votes from Gillespie.

Tim Kaine fared a little better.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:46 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:Doesn't that run the risk of large population centers drowning out smaller ones? We have flyover states in national politics, but wouldn't that create flyover counties for states?

On the contrary.

I am a democrat in a suburban district that Republicans won't be giving up on anytime soon. However, I will have a vote that results in at least one representative of my choosing rather than simply voting for the sacrificial lamb that will have to eventually cede to the putz, Matt Goetz.


I guess what I am missing from your system is, how are you preventing the largest population centers from screwing over the more rural and diverse areas. I'm not even talking D and R. What prevents a politician from focusing on the issues that matter to Philadelphia and say screw the rest of Pennsyltucky?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby RedLeader » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:24 pm

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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:01 pm

Ken Carson wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:On the contrary.

I am a democrat in a suburban district that Republicans won't be giving up on anytime soon. However, I will have a vote that results in at least one representative of my choosing rather than simply voting for the sacrificial lamb that will have to eventually cede to the putz, Matt Goetz.


I guess what I am missing from your system is, how are you preventing the largest population centers from screwing over the more rural and diverse areas. I'm not even talking D and R. What prevents a politician from focusing on the issues that matter to Philadelphia and say screw the rest of Pennsyltucky?

Because the rest of the state still has a say.

A majority is still a majority, but the minority cannot be stifled under this system.

We still elect governors and senators in statewide elections. They win when they have a majority in either system. And they are as fickle as yhe political winds.

Its the house seats that are the biggest issue and where minority parties and voters get screwed.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby MJW » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:13 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Its the house seats that are the biggest issue and where minority parties and voters get screwed.


I've been trying to explain this to friends RE: the "Competitive districts" argument. It's really simple. In a gerrymandered district, which is what people seem to be bothered by, you've got 10 or 20 percent of the voters who don't feel represented by their Congressman. In a more "organic" district, you'll have 45% of them who feel this way. Why is that better exactly?

District A wasn't gerrymandered. It has a highly competitive mix of Democrats and Republicans. The Democrats win, 50.1 to 49.9%. The result? Half the population feels they are not being represented by their Congressman, for many of them on key wedge issues like abortion.

District B WAS gerrymandered. It's overwhelming Democratic. The Democrat wins, 90%-10%. Now you have 10% of the population that feels that way instead of half of it.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:16 am

MJW wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Its the house seats that are the biggest issue and where minority parties and voters get screwed.


I've been trying to explain this to friends RE: the "Competitive districts" argument. It's really simple. In a gerrymandered district, which is what people seem to be bothered by, you've got 10 or 20 percent of the voters who don't feel represented by their Congressman. In a more "organic" district, you'll have 45% of them who feel this way. Why is that better exactly?

I'm sorry. Its first thing in the morning and I don't follow.

Please elaborate while I drink coffee.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:26 am

MJW wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Its the house seats that are the biggest issue and where minority parties and voters get screwed.


I've been trying to explain this to friends RE: the "Competitive districts" argument. It's really simple. In a gerrymandered district, which is what people seem to be bothered by, you've got 10 or 20 percent of the voters who don't feel represented by their Congressman. In a more "organic" district, you'll have 45% of them who feel this way. Why is that better exactly?


Regardless of how many voters in a district may feel represented by their Congressmen, it’s better because you have a better chance to get a better representative in a non-gerrymandered district. Gerrymandered districts will produce more ideologues who won’t compromise. And they will also tend to send the same person back over and over again. The only way to get someone new is to gerrymander the district again.

Look at John Conyers for instance. I guess that family is just going to pass that seat down to the next relative like a crown.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby MJW » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:50 am

Brazen331 wrote:
MJW wrote:
I've been trying to explain this to friends RE: the "Competitive districts" argument. It's really simple. In a gerrymandered district, which is what people seem to be bothered by, you've got 10 or 20 percent of the voters who don't feel represented by their Congressman. In a more "organic" district, you'll have 45% of them who feel this way. Why is that better exactly?


Regardless of how many voters in a district may feel represented by their Congressmen, it’s better because you have a better chance to get a better representative in a non-gerrymandered district. Gerrymandered districts will produce more ideologues who won’t compromise. And they will also tend to send the same person back over and over again. The only way to get someone new is to gerrymander the district again.

Look at John Conyers for instance. I guess that family is just going to pass that seat down to the next relative like a crown.


Valid, but that also implies that many districts will be running moderates who share values with the other party, or are willing to compromise, etc. There doesn't seem to be much room for such even-handed politicians in either party right now, and it's getting worse.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby MJW » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:52 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
MJW wrote:
I've been trying to explain this to friends RE: the "Competitive districts" argument. It's really simple. In a gerrymandered district, which is what people seem to be bothered by, you've got 10 or 20 percent of the voters who don't feel represented by their Congressman. In a more "organic" district, you'll have 45% of them who feel this way. Why is that better exactly?

I'm sorry. Its first thing in the morning and I don't follow.

Please elaborate while I drink coffee.


District A is not gerrymandered. It is highly competitive. The Republican wins, 51-49. 49% of the population don't feel represented.
District A IS gerrymandered. It is noncompetitive. The Republican wins, 90-10. Only 10% of the population doesn't feel represented.

Believing in competitive elections means believing in politicians bigger than their parties, who will be motivated to be great guys and gals and work with the other party and take moderate positions. I don't see much of that anymore.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Swashy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:14 am

Not that this is news but it perhaps qualifies as random. When we all woke up this morning and told my daughter to never give up hope and to believe that anything was possible. When she asked why I told her because even an idiot like Trump can become the president and even more so because after 11 years as an independent I finally registered to a major political affiliation and I had the voter card to prove it. She simply nodded like "Well he's got a point" Somewhere a young Swashy from 2004 is calling me a dumb, stupid bastard for not doing it sooner and not realizing I had it right back then to be a reluctant registered Democrat despite the fact I agree with probably 7 out of every 10 Republican ideals than to be registered to a 3rd party waiting for the Republicans to get their **** together. Whoever said "Get fucked" to the Republicans got their wish BIG TIME. These idiots are so far off base that it's like opening a cereal box and finding used tissue paper that's been used to wipe up every possible excretion that comes out of the human body instead of cereal. I don't see how they aren't gonna lose many seats during the mid-terms.

I'm waiting for the Florida primaries with baited breath.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:17 am

Swashy wrote:Not that this is news but it perhaps qualifies as random. When we all woke up this morning and told my daughter to never give up hope and to believe that anything was possible. When she asked why I told her because even an idiot like Trump can become the president and even more so because after 11 years as an independent I finally registered to a major political affiliation and I had the voter card to prove it. She simply nodded like "Well he's got a point" Somewhere a young Swashy from 2004 is calling me a dumb, stupid bastard for not doing it sooner and not realizing I had it right back then to be a reluctant registered Democrat despite the fact I agree with probably 7 out of every 10 Republican ideals than to be registered to a 3rd party waiting for the Republicans to get their **** together. Whoever said "Get fucked" to the Republicans got their wish BIG TIME. These idiots are so far off base that it's like opening a cereal box and finding used tissue paper that's been used to wipe up every possible excretion that comes out of the human body instead of cereal. I don't see how they aren't gonna lose many seats during the mid-terms.

I'm waiting for the Florida primaries with baited breath.

Who do you like for Governor?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Buc2 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:51 am

Swashy wrote:Not that this is news but it perhaps qualifies as random. When we all woke up this morning and told my daughter to never give up hope and to believe that anything was possible. When she asked why I told her because even an idiot like Trump can become the president and even more so because after 11 years as an independent I finally registered to a major political affiliation and I had the voter card to prove it. She simply nodded like "Well he's got a point" Somewhere a young Swashy from 2004 is calling me a dumb, stupid bastard for not doing it sooner and not realizing I had it right back then to be a reluctant registered Democrat despite the fact I agree with probably 7 out of every 10 Republican ideals than to be registered to a 3rd party waiting for the Republicans to get their **** together. Whoever said "Get fucked" to the Republicans got their wish BIG TIME. These idiots are so far off base that it's like opening a cereal box and finding used tissue paper that's been used to wipe up every possible excretion that comes out of the human body instead of cereal. I don't see how they aren't gonna lose many seats during the mid-terms.

I'm waiting for the Florida primaries with baited breath.

And you think Democrats haven't fucked to pooch from the other direction? :lol:
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:06 am

Swashy wrote:Not that this is news but it perhaps qualifies as random. When we all woke up this morning and told my daughter to never give up hope and to believe that anything was possible. When she asked why I told her because even an idiot like Trump can become the president and even more so because after 11 years as an independent I finally registered to a major political affiliation and I had the voter card to prove it. She simply nodded like "Well he's got a point" Somewhere a young Swashy from 2004 is calling me a dumb, stupid bastard for not doing it sooner and not realizing I had it right back then to be a reluctant registered Democrat despite the fact I agree with probably 7 out of every 10 Republican ideals than to be registered to a 3rd party waiting for the Republicans to get their **** together. Whoever said "Get fucked" to the Republicans got their wish BIG TIME. These idiots are so far off base that it's like opening a cereal box and finding used tissue paper that's been used to wipe up every possible excretion that comes out of the human body instead of cereal. I don't see how they aren't gonna lose many seats during the mid-terms.

I'm waiting for the Florida primaries with baited breath.


I’d rather remain Independent than go the SJW route and start playing identity politics but that’s me.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:10 am

Buc2 wrote:
Swashy wrote:Not that this is news but it perhaps qualifies as random. When we all woke up this morning and told my daughter to never give up hope and to believe that anything was possible. When she asked why I told her because even an idiot like Trump can become the president and even more so because after 11 years as an independent I finally registered to a major political affiliation and I had the voter card to prove it. She simply nodded like "Well he's got a point" Somewhere a young Swashy from 2004 is calling me a dumb, stupid bastard for not doing it sooner and not realizing I had it right back then to be a reluctant registered Democrat despite the fact I agree with probably 7 out of every 10 Republican ideals than to be registered to a 3rd party waiting for the Republicans to get their **** together. Whoever said "Get fucked" to the Republicans got their wish BIG TIME. These idiots are so far off base that it's like opening a cereal box and finding used tissue paper that's been used to wipe up every possible excretion that comes out of the human body instead of cereal. I don't see how they aren't gonna lose many seats during the mid-terms.

I'm waiting for the Florida primaries with baited breath.

And you think Democrats haven't fucked to pooch from the other direction? :lol:

Your whataboutism is strong today.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:21 am

Buc2 wrote:
Swashy wrote:Not that this is news but it perhaps qualifies as random. When we all woke up this morning and told my daughter to never give up hope and to believe that anything was possible. When she asked why I told her because even an idiot like Trump can become the president and even more so because after 11 years as an independent I finally registered to a major political affiliation and I had the voter card to prove it. She simply nodded like "Well he's got a point" Somewhere a young Swashy from 2004 is calling me a dumb, stupid bastard for not doing it sooner and not realizing I had it right back then to be a reluctant registered Democrat despite the fact I agree with probably 7 out of every 10 Republican ideals than to be registered to a 3rd party waiting for the Republicans to get their **** together. Whoever said "Get fucked" to the Republicans got their wish BIG TIME. These idiots are so far off base that it's like opening a cereal box and finding used tissue paper that's been used to wipe up every possible excretion that comes out of the human body instead of cereal. I don't see how they aren't gonna lose many seats during the mid-terms.

I'm waiting for the Florida primaries with baited breath.

And you think Democrats haven't fucked to pooch from the other direction? :lol:


Does Swashi ever wonder who got California the way it is
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:05 pm

mdb1958 wrote:
Buc2 wrote:And you think Democrats haven't fucked to pooch from the other direction? :lol:


Does Swashi ever wonder who got California the way it is

Reagan?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:11 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
mdb1958 wrote:
Does Swashi ever wonder who got California the way it is

Reagan?


Do you not see the evil that's tied in with your education.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Swashy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:30 pm

Here's great ideas and ideology of the Republican party and what has actually happened

Republicans want strong, minimized government but we get dumb ass presidents like Trump and W

Republicans like a lassiez-faire approach to economics. And yet the wage gap, cost of living and disappearance of the middle class is greater than ever. AWWW GEEEZ! THANKS OBAMA!!! I mean **** it's not like he did stuff like continue the Bush tax cuts or anything. Oh...... wait....

They believe in strong military alright.... holy **** what a debacle we have had going on over there. Did we ever find those WMD's or what?

The Republican party advocates more strongly for veterans disability, healthcare etc than Democrats and yet probably half of our homeless are veterans. You really think Trump's gonna SERIOUSLY try to tackle that issue?

Republicans are more environmentally lax about things like drilling for oil but I'm sure we'll all forget about BP if we wait long enough. We better hope and ****ing pray nothing happens with the Keystone pipeline

Other ****

Remember how Trump as gonna BUILD THAT WALL?

Remember how Trump was gonna team up and get rid of Obamacare?

Do you think Trump gives any kind of a flying **** about the amount of debt the millennial generation is in due to college costs

This is why I'm a Democrat now.... they are a ****ing welfare state disaster but unlike Republicans they'll back up their game like passing same sex marriage, health care reform and protecting Roe vs Wade. The Republicans and Democrats are like two boxes of cereal. Open up the Democrat box and you have the wrong cereal inside of it. Open up the Republican box of cereal and you've got something totally different like used tissue paper.

Like I said.... I'm a reluctant Democrat. I agree more with Republican policy but I'm gonna tell you right now that Reagan is rolling in his grave. I'm not gonna spend the rest of my life waiting for Republicans to get their **** together. They WON'T. I'm hoping Bernie Sanders phenomenon will hopefully change the Democratic way of thinking and I'm gonna hold out hope that we get some positive direction there. He has good ideas. Right now it's better than nothing.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Jan 17, 2018 12:32 pm

MB is right by including Reagan....Reagan grew the size of the California gov't by over 10% if I recall...I think I read recently that the average growth under his reign in California was 13%


just found it -- he grew gov't by 12.2% per year

http://reason.com/blog/2018/01/11/gov-j ... t-californ
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