Random Political News

A Place to respectfully discuss those topics that you should never discuss.
post

Re: Random Political News

Postby MJW » Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:37 am

Corsair wrote:This is what happens when you devalue education in the sciences.

The great brain drain has begun and this country is going to be paying for it for a long time.


Begun? I think most of the problems began around, oh, 1979, when the buffoon Carter federalized education by inventing the DoE and we turned our education system into, "Tell the kids to fill out the damn scan-tron if you want federal funding!" It was quite a sloppy kiss to the radical loons at the UFT who helped get him elected.

I doubt anything Trump does - about anything - will help - anything - but for the love of Jobu let's not pretend our ignorant nation or the education system than bore it came about two months ago.
Image
User avatar
MJW
 
Posts: 5318
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:17 am
Location: Nebraska
Has thanked: 131 times
Been thanked: 236 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:19 am

MJW wrote:
Corsair wrote:This is what happens when you devalue education in the sciences.

The great brain drain has begun and this country is going to be paying for it for a long time.


Begun? I think most of the problems began around, oh, 1979, when the buffoon Carter federalized education by inventing the DoE and we turned our education system into, "Tell the kids to fill out the damn scan-tron if you want federal funding!" It was quite a sloppy kiss to the radical loons at the UFT who helped get him elected.

I doubt anything Trump does - about anything - will help - anything - but for the love of Jobu let's not pretend our ignorant nation or the education system than bore it came about two months ago.

Let's keep in mind that a big part of the scantron testing is attributable to companies like McGraw-Hill who develop these tests and successfully lobbied the fed and states to implement these systems.

Vertical integration from college exams like the SAT and ACT. Now the idea of NOT quantifying education through standardized tests is unthinkable. How are we supposed to know that our children is learning?

I don't pretend to have the answer, but I do think that our education system is designed to make our kids ultimately into college professors rather than subject matter experts in their chosen field.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby HamBone » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:29 am

And we should care...why?
HamBone
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:34 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:37 am

HamBone wrote:And we should care...why?

You should only care if you have any interest in what education in America should look like.

I know that you want local control over education. That's fine. But the question remains, what do you teach them and how do you determine if it's effective?

Nobody likes standardized testing, what do you replace it with? Do you replace it with anything?
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby MJW » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:38 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
MJW wrote:
Begun? I think most of the problems began around, oh, 1979, when the buffoon Carter federalized education by inventing the DoE and we turned our education system into, "Tell the kids to fill out the damn scan-tron if you want federal funding!" It was quite a sloppy kiss to the radical loons at the UFT who helped get him elected.

I doubt anything Trump does - about anything - will help - anything - but for the love of Jobu let's not pretend our ignorant nation or the education system than bore it came about two months ago.

Let's keep in mind that a big part of the scantron testing is attributable to companies like McGraw-Hill who develop these tests and successfully lobbied the fed and states to implement these systems.

Vertical integration from college exams like the SAT and ACT. Now the idea of NOT quantifying education through standardized tests is unthinkable. How are we supposed to know that our children is learning?

I don't pretend to have the answer, but I do think that our education system is designed to make our kids ultimately into college professors rather than subject matter experts in their chosen field.


I was poking at standardization, not necessarily scantrons and the methods.

I like what you said about college professors. The "Cult Of College" is such an 800 lbs. elephant in the room at this point. This idea that we need to prepare every kid to go to college, and every kid NEEDS to go to college, and the stigma towards kids who go VOTECH or whatever...and it's yet another thing no candidate really touched this election cycle. Except for Bernie, who was dead wrong about it.

We need to stop acting as if college is the only launch pad out there, and the system is failing kids who it doesn't send to one after graduation. Besides the crippling debt and worthless degrees, we work REALLY hard to convince young people with actual technical skills they're inferior because they'll never take an art history seminar for $40 an hour.

/Rant
Image
User avatar
MJW
 
Posts: 5318
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:17 am
Location: Nebraska
Has thanked: 131 times
Been thanked: 236 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby HamBone » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:47 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
HamBone wrote:And we should care...why?

You should only care if you have any interest in what education in America should look like.

I know that you want local control over education. That's fine. But the question remains, what do you teach them and how do you determine if it's effective?

Nobody likes standardized testing, what do you replace it with? Do you replace it with anything?


No, my question was to Corsair and his foreign student #trumpeffect post.

Should have quoted it...but, yours and MJW's post weren't showing on my phone.
HamBone
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:34 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby mightyleemoon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:52 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and say that's kinda the point...


yeah I mean I get the "cronies" want that done... but you don't just throw away national assets like that... I mean knowing **** about **** is how we avoid **** that fucks up our ****, which costs money... its just a dumb ****ing move across the board. its incredibly short sighted. its not something I'd expect out of a god-emperor


Are we still nominating posts for things? Because, this **** here is POTW.
User avatar
mightyleemoon
 
Posts: 2637
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:35 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 162 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:55 am

MJW wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Let's keep in mind that a big part of the scantron testing is attributable to companies like McGraw-Hill who develop these tests and successfully lobbied the fed and states to implement these systems.

Vertical integration from college exams like the SAT and ACT. Now the idea of NOT quantifying education through standardized tests is unthinkable. How are we supposed to know that our children is learning?

I don't pretend to have the answer, but I do think that our education system is designed to make our kids ultimately into college professors rather than subject matter experts in their chosen field.


I was poking at standardization, not necessarily scantrons and the methods.

I like what you said about college professors. The "Cult Of College" is such an 800 lbs. elephant in the room at this point. This idea that we need to prepare every kid to go to college, and every kid NEEDS to go to college, and the stigma towards kids who go VOTECH or whatever...and it's yet another thing no candidate really touched this election cycle. Except for Bernie, who was dead wrong about it.

We need to stop acting as if college is the only launch pad out there, and the system is failing kids who it doesn't send to one after graduation. Besides the crippling debt and worthless degrees, we work REALLY hard to convince young people with actual technical skills they're inferior because they'll never take an art history seminar for $40 an hour.

/Rant

It's a baby boomer holdover that thought college was the golden ticket to financial success.

Nothing pissed me off more than sitting in a 100 level course with a third of the class full of dopes who thought it was still high school.

The attrition rate for freshman at my college was 50℅. The herd was culled an additional 20℅ over the next year or two as kids continued to either wash out or transfer to WVU.

Assuming that is the standard, you have about half the kids coming from HS into college, a little more than half of those washing out. With 25-30℅ of all of them actually getting a degree. I might also toss in that maybe 10℅ of those end up with a fine arts degree. But I digress.


Perhaps high school should focus less on college prep, and more on helping these kids find the best path for them.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:55 am

HamBone wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:You should only care if you have any interest in what education in America should look like.

I know that you want local control over education. That's fine. But the question remains, what do you teach them and how do you determine if it's effective?

Nobody likes standardized testing, what do you replace it with? Do you replace it with anything?


No, my question was to Corsair and his foreign student #trumpeffect post.

Should have quoted it...but, yours and MJW's post weren't showing on my phone.

All good.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby mightyleemoon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:01 am

MJW wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Let's keep in mind that a big part of the scantron testing is attributable to companies like McGraw-Hill who develop these tests and successfully lobbied the fed and states to implement these systems.

Vertical integration from college exams like the SAT and ACT. Now the idea of NOT quantifying education through standardized tests is unthinkable. How are we supposed to know that our children is learning?

I don't pretend to have the answer, but I do think that our education system is designed to make our kids ultimately into college professors rather than subject matter experts in their chosen field.


I was poking at standardization, not necessarily scantrons and the methods.

I like what you said about college professors. The "Cult Of College" is such an 800 lbs. elephant in the room at this point. This idea that we need to prepare every kid to go to college, and every kid NEEDS to go to college, and the stigma towards kids who go VOTECH or whatever...and it's yet another thing no candidate really touched this election cycle. Except for Bernie, who was dead wrong about it.

We need to stop acting as if college is the only launch pad out there, and the system is failing kids who it doesn't send to one after graduation. Besides the crippling debt and worthless degrees, we work REALLY hard to convince young people with actual technical skills they're inferior because they'll never take an art history seminar for $40 an hour.

/Rant


The business sector is massively to blame here. I recommended a really talented coder to an IT position where I work...and he was turned down for not having a degree. I know my **** when it comes to a handful of languages...but this guy can code circles around me. And, to turn down that talent because he doesn't have some piece of paper? I think this is where I'm supposed to say "Sad!". And this is a pretty standard practice across the board in the corporate world.

If you want to change the culture you're criticizing, it needs to start in the corporate sector.
User avatar
mightyleemoon
 
Posts: 2637
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:35 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 162 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:43 am

several great posts in a row, mjw, mb, mlm - and hambone, your "who cares" in response to corsair's post about fewer foreign college apps caps it off.

100% agree with all four of you, and would really love to continue the conversation about education. what is this - is the buczone board approaching unanimous agreement on a subject!?

corsair, my father made a similar point to me recently. he's a liberal boomer. told me that if we limit the amount of foreign minds coming to america then we're potentially losing out on, say, the next steve jobs, considering he was the son of a syrian immigrant (his example; terrible ****ing example; aslo shows you what a liberal boomer considers a "great mind" lmao). Independently, I had encountered the concept of "the great man theory" several years back - and there's been pretty decisive research that disproves the concept that "civilization is just waiting around for great men to be born to take us to the next level". The conclusion is that "great men" (or women or gender fluid or apache helicopters) are created by the frame work of their lives; their society, their media, their education system, their desires, their priorities, their life events. American brains are not inferior to Indian or Chinese brains. If you're having fewer foreign college applications, that just means those colleges are going to be filled with Americans instead. And if those Americans do not succeed in the way that an Indian or Chinese student would have, then it is the fault of the American "framework", not the American Brain. By having fewer foreign college applicants, we are not missing out on the next great person, we are just having a greater chance that that person will be american born.

And if you were citing the article in some sort of humanitarian plea, then I'm going to differ to hambone's "who cares", and suggest you watch this quick video for some perspective:

User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:54 am

If you are strictly speaking from rate of return (debt vs. increase in income) at least 30% of the students at my school shouldn't be here. They will take jobs they could have taken without a degree. That being said, many of those students and their parents are choosing this route NOT because of the rate of return on their investment...which is fair enough, who am I to criticize how people spend money? But the overall point that many have made in this thread that too many students are going to college simply because it is "expected" is one I agree with.



For those of you who like to belittle "non-practical" majors in the liberal arts...study after study shows that liberal arts majors earn just as much as their counterparts in more "practical" fields like accounting, nursing, etc. (though they still lag behind the STEM majors)


Here are recent ones....you can find many more

https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-news- ... 1473645902

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... -term-data




I would have no problem if my child wants to major in a liberal arts field...and I would have no problem if she were to go a more technical/vocational route either.
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:02 am

beardmcdoug wrote:100% agree with all four of you, and would really love to continue the conversation about education. what is this - is the buczone board approaching unanimous agreement on a subject!?


In that case someone must be "the 10th man" - World War Z :P
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 279 times
Been thanked: 279 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Buc2 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:08 am

I Image all the posts on this page.
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 5578
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 642 times
Been thanked: 181 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:19 am

Zarniwoop wrote:If you are strictly speaking from rate of return (debt vs. increase in income) at least 30% of the students at my school shouldn't be here. They will take jobs they could have taken without a degree. That being said, many of those students and their parents are choosing this route NOT because of the rate of return on their investment...which is fair enough, who am I to criticize how people spend money? But the overall point that many have made in this thread that too many students are going to college simply because it is "expected" is one I agree with.



For those of you who like to belittle "non-practical" majors in the liberal arts...study after study shows that liberal arts majors earn just as much as their counterparts in more "practical" fields like accounting, nursing, etc. (though they still lag behind the STEM majors)


Here are recent ones....you can find many more

https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-news- ... 1473645902

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... -term-data




I would have no problem if my child wants to major in a liberal arts field...and I would have no problem if she were to go a more technical/vocational route either.


I agree with you... although it would be tough... I would spell out very clearly what that is going to mean for my son so he doesn't get fucked in the butt like a lot of my naive (not necessarily wrongly naive) college friends are getting right now because they went the liberal arts path. Got a friend who's going back for his second (slightly more lucrative) master's - after getting a master's in history - because he's making 35k working for the state (after making the same working for soulless administrators at an inner city HS). He sees very little opportunity for vertical movement with his history Master's, so is going back for Public Admin.

If my son wanted to study english or history (which, believe me, I value), I'd tell him don't expect more than $35k and you better be prepared to be lean as **** for the first 5-10 years out of college - living the pinto beans/hot sauce, dip a piece of white bread in it life style. That means no kids, no vacations, no nice car, etc. That would at least be my advice - god knows he probably won't take it, but I'll be damn if my son goes that route and doesn't know EXACTLY the kind of **** life he's in for. That nice woman you linked in your article, that rode the Groupon wave, who now writes for Soda Media, Inc (lmao) won the lottery.

Music/arts majors, that's another story. unless he's a literal god damn virtuoso/savant and is addicted to it, I'd make him kill me before he signed up for music/arts major. (then again he's only 2 and I'm talkin a big game now lol who fuckin knows ). But I'd at least tell him to learn a trade. play music/do art in your spare time. but at least have SOMETHING to fall back on. chances are, if you're of that mind, you'll at least like working with your hands. life will chew you up and spit you out if you try to shoot the moon like that and fail. yadi-yadi-ya /rant
User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:35 am

beardmcdoug wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:If you are strictly speaking from rate of return (debt vs. increase in income) at least 30% of the students at my school shouldn't be here. They will take jobs they could have taken without a degree. That being said, many of those students and their parents are choosing this route NOT because of the rate of return on their investment...which is fair enough, who am I to criticize how people spend money? But the overall point that many have made in this thread that too many students are going to college simply because it is "expected" is one I agree with.



For those of you who like to belittle "non-practical" majors in the liberal arts...study after study shows that liberal arts majors earn just as much as their counterparts in more "practical" fields like accounting, nursing, etc. (though they still lag behind the STEM majors)


Here are recent ones....you can find many more

https://www.wsj.com/articles/good-news- ... 1473645902

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/201 ... -term-data




I would have no problem if my child wants to major in a liberal arts field...and I would have no problem if she were to go a more technical/vocational route either.


I agree with you... although it would be tough... I would spell out very clearly what that is going to mean for my son so he doesn't get fucked in the butt like a lot of my naive (not necessarily wrongly naive) college friends are getting right now because they went the liberal arts path. Got a friend who's going back for his second (slightly more lucrative) master's - after getting a master's in history - because he's making 35k working for the state (after making the same working for soulless administrators at an inner city HS). He sees very little opportunity for vertical movement with his history Master's, so is going back for Public Admin.

If my son wanted to study english or history (which, believe me, I value), I'd tell him don't expect more than $35k and you better be prepared to be lean as **** for the first 5-10 years out of college - living the pinto beans/hot sauce, dip a piece of white bread in it life style. That means no kids, no vacations, no nice car, etc. That would at least be my advice - god knows he probably won't take it, but I'll be damn if my son goes that route and doesn't know EXACTLY the kind of **** life he's in for. That nice woman you linked in your article, that rode the Groupon wave, who now writes for Soda Media, Inc (lmao) won the lottery.

Music/arts majors, that's another story. unless he's a literal god damn virtuoso/savant and is addicted to it, I'd make him kill me before he signed up for music/arts major. (then again he's only 2 and I'm talkin a big game now lol who fuckin knows ). But I'd at least tell him to learn a trade. play music/do art in your spare time. but at least have SOMETHING to fall back on. chances are, if you're of that mind, you'll at least like working with your hands. life will chew you up and spit you out if you try to shoot the moon like that and fail. yadi-yadi-ya /rant




here's the thing about college as far as my opinion is concerned...ideally we teach students to learn how to think and question and explore. that can be done within just about any major. when i'm teaching, i care more about whether the students learn critical thinking skills, communication skills, analytical skills, logic skills, etc then i care if they remember some business related vocab terms. the theoretical inventory models i learned as an undergraduate weren't the same ones i used when i took my job. every business does things differently. it's our job to teach students the skills that are meaningful across environments and contexts....not the methods, vocab, tools that a particular company is going to use.

while we definitely have to ground our teaching "in the real world" with practical examples and anecdotes, ultimately we are teaching them skills that transcend environment.



(and not to get too far on a tangent...this is exactly why standardized testing is ****ing stupid....the best learning institutions in the world don't use them because they are teaching skills, not minutia that can be measured in a multiple choice question ...why should we force it upon K-12?)
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Buc2 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:47 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
beardmcdoug wrote:
I agree with you... although it would be tough... I would spell out very clearly what that is going to mean for my son so he doesn't get fucked in the butt like a lot of my naive (not necessarily wrongly naive) college friends are getting right now because they went the liberal arts path. Got a friend who's going back for his second (slightly more lucrative) master's - after getting a master's in history - because he's making 35k working for the state (after making the same working for soulless administrators at an inner city HS). He sees very little opportunity for vertical movement with his history Master's, so is going back for Public Admin.

If my son wanted to study english or history (which, believe me, I value), I'd tell him don't expect more than $35k and you better be prepared to be lean as **** for the first 5-10 years out of college - living the pinto beans/hot sauce, dip a piece of white bread in it life style. That means no kids, no vacations, no nice car, etc. That would at least be my advice - god knows he probably won't take it, but I'll be damn if my son goes that route and doesn't know EXACTLY the kind of **** life he's in for. That nice woman you linked in your article, that rode the Groupon wave, who now writes for Soda Media, Inc (lmao) won the lottery.

Music/arts majors, that's another story. unless he's a literal god damn virtuoso/savant and is addicted to it, I'd make him kill me before he signed up for music/arts major. (then again he's only 2 and I'm talkin a big game now lol who fuckin knows ). But I'd at least tell him to learn a trade. play music/do art in your spare time. but at least have SOMETHING to fall back on. chances are, if you're of that mind, you'll at least like working with your hands. life will chew you up and spit you out if you try to shoot the moon like that and fail. yadi-yadi-ya /rant




here's the thing about college as far as my opinion is concerned...ideally we teach students to learn how to think and question and explore. that can be done within just about any major. when i'm teaching, i care more about whether the students learn critical thinking skills, communication skills, analytical skills, logic skills, etc then i care if they remember some business related vocab terms. the theoretical inventory models i learned as an undergraduate weren't the same ones i used when i took my job. every business does things differently. it's our job to teach students the skills that are meaningful across environments and contexts....not the methods, vocab, tools that a particular company is going to use.

while we definitely have to ground our teaching "in the real world" with practical examples and anecdotes, ultimately we are teaching them skills that transcend environment.



(and not to get too far on a tangent...this is exactly why standardized testing is ****ing stupid....the best learning institutions in the world don't use them because they are teaching skills, not minutia that can be measured in a multiple choice question ...why should we force it upon K-12?)

The biggest reason I "liked" your first post above was because many companies hire degreed people. By that I mean they want a person with a degree, not a specific type of degree. A good example is the insurance industry. A lot of insurance companies look for people with degrees. They don't care what that degree is in, just that you have one. I think this goes to your point of students learning critical thinking skills, communications skills, etc. It doesn't matter if it was an engineering technology degree or a liberal arts degree.
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 5578
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 642 times
Been thanked: 181 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:55 am

indeed....i agree buc 2

and i would go farther saying only hiring those with college degrees is a good way to VERY CHEAPLY minimize risk. by graduating college, a student has shown that have at least moderate degrees of intelligence, motivation, work ethic, time management skills, sociability, etc.

It's an easy way for a company to weed out applicants quickly and cheaply.


Does this mean its the best way? Absolutely not...some people who graduate college are dipshits and won't ever hold a real job and be productive, others who never went to college will be superstars in the workforce.
Zarniwoop
 
Posts: 1261
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 12:23 pm
Has thanked: 69 times
Been thanked: 101 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:10 am

It's a good point zarni - appreciate your perspective. You sound like a great teacher
User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby PrimeMinister » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:19 am

This is the best page on Buczone.
PrimeMinister
 
Posts: 4589
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:34 am
Has thanked: 21 times
Been thanked: 132 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby mightyleemoon » Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:49 am

PrimeMinister wrote:This is the best page on Buczone.


I dunno. That Revis thread had some good ones.

Also, most pages in the Hot Chicks thread probably rate higher.
User avatar
mightyleemoon
 
Posts: 2637
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:35 pm
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 162 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:00 am

Bear, I want to take issue with the last paragraph of your long post and how you would push your kids away from an art/music program unless they were savants.

I'll first point to my hippie uncle. And I'm not taking about a paleo-vegan-live in a yurt hippie. I'm talking about a Woodstock hippie. Hippie version 1.0.

Anyway, he enrolled in college like most of them in order to get a draft deferment in 1970 and plunged into all that debauchery you would expect at the time. His major? Ceramics and pottery. Fewer majors I can think of that are more worthless than that but he absolutely loved it and had a good aptitude for it.

Like any hippie, he figured he could sell his pottery to keep gas in his microbus and grass in his pocket forever and damned if he didn't try. Some time in the late seventies he decided that wasn't cutting the mustard and became a plumber's apprentice. Fast forward twenty years and he's a master plumber with his own business and still making pottery because he loves it.

He has since retired, not wealthy, but retired enough to be retired and guess what he still does? He makes and sells pottery.

My two daughters who are just getting going into high school have an aptitude for art and music. I have, and will continue to encourage that they continue with their passion because as Zarni said, there are paths to the middle class that don't require a business or STEM degree. When they ask about jobs and careers, I ask them what is a job other than what you do to get the money to do what you want to in your spare time?

Not everyone will paint like Rockwell or perform at the metropolitan Opera House. But not everyone has to. Study the thing you love so you can do that thing and master that thing. Whether or not you can make money at it is irrelevant. Big box Retail managers make a nice living and there ain't no degree required for that.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:04 am

I'd personally like to see a bit of a culture shift back to certification programs treated with the prestige they used to get. Unfortunately, there's so many for-profit colleges that popped up that have no real oversight that will give anyone that ponies up the money a "certification" that isn't worth the paper it's written on. The waters have gotten so muddied that even legitimate certifications are looked down on. In reality, I'd hire someone with a CCNP in a heartbeat over someone with a Bachelor's in "business management" for my engineering team. The seed needs to be planted in high school that qualified certification programs are valuable and I'd love to see some sort of accessible database of endorsements for the programs that shows the value.
User avatar
bucfanclw
 
Posts: 1976
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 4:09 pm
Has thanked: 11 times
Been thanked: 107 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Buc2 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:16 am

bucfanclw wrote:I'd personally like to see a bit of a culture shift back to certification programs treated with the prestige they used to get. Unfortunately, there's so many for-profit colleges that popped up that have no real oversight that will give anyone that ponies up the money a "certification" that isn't worth the paper it's written on. The waters have gotten so muddied that even legitimate certifications are looked down on. In reality, I'd hire someone with a CCNP in a heartbeat over someone with a Bachelor's in "business management" for my engineering team. The seed needs to be planted in high school that qualified certification programs are valuable and I'd love to see some sort of accessible database of endorsements for the programs that shows the value.

I agree. Back when I graduated high school, there were pretty much only 3 viable options you could take as a springboard to a worthwhile career. All 3 had their pros and cons.
1 - College
2 - Technical school
3 - Military
Those 3 options are still around of course, but like has been mentioned by you and others here, generally speaking, college has become THE thing everyone must have to be successful. I'm not sure what can be done to change this perception, but it really does need to change.
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 5578
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 642 times
Been thanked: 181 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:31 am

It's based around people's definitions of success. For many, that's how much money you make and have, illest house in town, and the Lexus with the big red bow on it on Christmas morning.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby HamBone » Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:56 am

Anyone see that Turkey is threatening to flood Europe with 15,000 "refugees" a month?
HamBone
 
Posts: 1549
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:34 am
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby DreadNaught » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:34 am

HamBone wrote:Anyone see that Turkey is threatening to flood Europe with 15,000 "refugees" a month?


Just days after the Turkish Foreign Minister stated "holy wars will soon begin in Europe".

But I'm sure it's just more cultural enrichment.
Image
User avatar
DreadNaught
 
Posts: 6621
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:18 am
Has thanked: 279 times
Been thanked: 279 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby beardmcdoug » Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:48 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:Bear, I want to take issue with the last paragraph of your long post and how you would push your kids away from an art/music program unless they were savants.

I'll first point to my hippie uncle. And I'm not taking about a paleo-vegan-live in a yurt hippie. I'm talking about a Woodstock hippie. Hippie version 1.0.

Anyway, he enrolled in college like most of them in order to get a draft deferment in 1970 and plunged into all that debauchery you would expect at the time. His major? Ceramics and pottery. Fewer majors I can think of that are more worthless than that but he absolutely loved it and had a good aptitude for it.

Like any hippie, he figured he could sell his pottery to keep gas in his microbus and grass in his pocket forever and damned if he didn't try. Some time in the late seventies he decided that wasn't cutting the mustard and became a plumber's apprentice. Fast forward twenty years and he's a master plumber with his own business and still making pottery because he loves it.

He has since retired, not wealthy, but retired enough to be retired and guess what he still does? He makes and sells pottery.

My two daughters who are just getting going into high school have an aptitude for art and music. I have, and will continue to encourage that they continue with their passion because as Zarni said, there are paths to the middle class that don't require a business or STEM degree. When they ask about jobs and careers, I ask them what is a job other than what you do to get the money to do what you want to in your spare time?

Not everyone will paint like Rockwell or perform at the metropolitan Opera House. But not everyone has to. Study the thing you love so you can do that thing and master that thing. Whether or not you can make money at it is irrelevant. Big box Retail managers make a nice living and there ain't no degree required for that.


Well yeah, but your uncle was doing that in the 70s, when you could relatively do that. You didn't have to worry about building credit to buy a house, you didn't have a cell phone payment, the price of essential goods were far cheaper (related to average income), you could literally walk up to places, shake a hand and get a job, there wasnt the Internet and an inventory of workers available for every employer. Your uncle could actually survive on meager pay and the good graces of others. You literally cannot do that in 2017, and if you try it, you will pay the price heavier when you try to come back. And what did you uncle ultimately do? Got a "real" job to pay the bills. That's what I'm saying; I'm talking about discouraging my son from MAJORING in the arts, not telling him to hate them. Maybe I miscommunicated that. If he likes playing music, by all means, he can go to college, join a band, play local bars with his buddies while majors in a field that he finds, hopefully, at least mildly interesting, but most importantly, provides him a solid chance at landing a solid-paying job when he gets out of college. That way he can afford to enjoy music or the arts at his pleasure, and not spend his life working 3 jobs to just make ends meet because he majored in music theory and didn't "make it". I mean I don't know you uncle, but it sounds like pottery is a genuine passion of his, which means I'm sure he probably would have kept in his life regardless of whether he majored in it in college. That's all I'm saying - get your safety net set first, and have a blast with the things you love 6-10pm and all day sat/Sunday
User avatar
beardmcdoug
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:30 pm
Has thanked: 38 times
Been thanked: 47 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:22 pm

But Bear, we've already established that a degree is no guarantee of financial success. Colleges today are full of engineering and computer science majors who are miserable. Why go into debt to study something you hate? Because you MIGHT get a good paying job that you'll hate? Why put yourself through that?

If what our kids are interested in is in a college then they should go there. If it's in a vocational school, they should go there. Half of graduates end up not working in thier field anyway. At least they spent 2-4 years getting immersed in something that they are passionate about. Now all we have to figure out is letting them do it without drowning in debt.
Image
User avatar
Mountaineer Buc
 
Posts: 6186
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:15 pm
Has thanked: 64 times
Been thanked: 393 times

Re: Random Political News

Postby Buc2 » Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:25 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:But Bear, we've already established that a degree is no guarantee of financial success. Colleges today are full of engineering and computer science majors who are miserable. Why go into debt to study something you hate? Because you MIGHT get a good paying job that you'll hate? Why put yourself through that?

If what our kids are interested in is in a college then they should go there. If it's in a vocational school, they should go there. Half of graduates end up not working in thier field anyway. At least they spent 2-4 years getting immersed in something that they are passionate about. Now all we have to figure out is letting them do it without drowning in debt.

Simple. Stop with the easy loans. It's ridiculous. There are other avenues to getting into college without resorting to student loans that can't be repaid. Bottom line, if you can't afford to go, then don't go. Do something else. I don't see where anyone is doing these kids a favor by letting them go to college to study something they can't get a job in when they finish so they can afford to pay off their loan debt. This is going to be the next bubble most likely. The student loan bubble. It will all come crashing down. Soon if I had to guess.
Image
Don't tread on me
User avatar
Buc2
 
Posts: 5578
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 2:16 pm
Location: America
Has thanked: 642 times
Been thanked: 181 times

PreviousNext

post

Return to Politics and Religion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Corsair, deltbucs, Rocker and 1 guest