Random Political News

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Re: Random Political News

Postby PrimeMinister » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:55 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:I'd be on board with this as long as there was a national minimum standard training to get a cc permit.


This is why I would be against the bill. Unless it establishes and enforces a national minimum, I don't agree with this. I think it's fine how it is now. If states want to recognize other states cwp permit holders, they can. If they don't, they have that ability.


I doubt we ever get a national minimum standard for cwp. Laws surrounding cwp should be left entirely to the states. The current system of voluntary reciprocity is perfect imo.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:37 pm

I’ve taken the test in Ohio and Texas.

They were the simplest things I have ever seen. People who had never fired a gun before and were so weak they needed help racking the slide back passed with flying colors.


Has anyone ever taken it in a state where it was difficult?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby PrimeMinister » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:53 pm

I’ve only take it in Texas so I have nothing to compare it to. Do you believe the test should be tougher? If so in what ways?

Edit: damn autocorrect
Last edited by PrimeMinister on Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:55 pm

No I don’t. I don’t think there should be a test.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby PrimeMinister » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:32 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:No I don’t. I don’t think there should be a test.


That’s fascinating. Why not?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:35 pm

#BanDrivingTests
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:47 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:No I don’t. I don’t think there should be a test.


That’s fascinating. Why not?


What other freedom guaranteed in the bill of Rights do you need to take a test to execute on public land provided you aren’t interfering with anyone else’s rights or freedoms?

Would it be ok for a state to say you need to have to take a test in order not to be discriminated against because of your gender? Or you need to pass a test to be guaranteed the right to not being unnecessarily searched? Or how about voting ... could you imagine the outcry if someone had to pay $100 and take an all day class and test in order to vote?




And from a pragmatic sense...as I said, the tests are worthless. Anyone can pass. It’s simply a way to collect revenue.

What proof is there that any of these tests are effective? They are just “feel good” things to ease the minds of others. Many states don’t require tests. Are people in those states killing each other at much higher rates?


Not to mention, in most states (if not all), you don’t need a permit to have a gun in your car. But if you get one inch out of your car you need one. What happened in that one inch that dramatically changed? Seems a silly distinction
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Ken Carson » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:24 pm

So you don't make any distinction between the right to punch a hole through paper next to someone's name and the right to own and operate a semi-automatic tool of death and dismemberment?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:32 pm

Ken Carson wrote:So you don't make any distinction between the right to punch a hole through paper next to someone's name and the right to own and operate a semi-automatic tool of death and dismemberment?



If you want to ask a serious question like PrimeMinister did I’d be happy to answer.

If you want to quote a part of my post you don’t understand and ask me to explain I will.

If you expect an answer or response to the question you wrote above, I fear you will be waiting
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Re: Random Political News

Postby RedLeader » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:44 pm

Ken Carson wrote:So you don't make any distinction between the right to punch a hole through paper next to someone's name and the right to own and operate a semi-automatic tool of death and dismemberment?


Well, the pen IS mightier than the sword... ;)
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Tue Dec 05, 2017 4:48 pm

RedLeader wrote:
Well, the pen IS mightier than the sword... ;)



Not at my age it isn’t.

Oh...wait...NVM
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:12 am

Trump naming Jerusalem the capital of Israel. Glad to see we're not needlessly inserting ourselves into other country's fights any more.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby uscbucsfan » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:24 am

bucfanclw wrote:Trump naming Jerusalem the capital of Israel. Glad to see we're not needlessly inserting ourselves into other country's fights any more.

It was a spacific campaign promise. I'm ok with supporting Isreal. Although I'd rather stay out of most of these foreign conflicts. It makes more sense than some of the other **** we are doing internationally.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby PrimeMinister » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:52 am

Zarniwoop wrote:
PrimeMinister wrote:
That’s fascinating. Why not?


What other freedom guaranteed in the bill of Rights do you need to take a test to execute on public land provided you aren’t interfering with anyone else’s rights or freedoms?

Would it be ok for a state to say you need to have to take a test in order not to be discriminated against because of your gender? Or you need to pass a test to be guaranteed the right to not being unnecessarily searched? Or how about voting ... could you imagine the outcry if someone had to pay $100 and take an all day class and test in order to vote?




And from a pragmatic sense...as I said, the tests are worthless. Anyone can pass. It’s simply a way to collect revenue.

What proof is there that any of these tests are effective? They are just “feel good” things to ease the minds of others. Many states don’t require tests. Are people in those states killing each other at much higher rates?


Not to mention, in most states (if not all), you don’t need a permit to have a gun in your car. But if you get one inch out of your car you need one. What happened in that one inch that dramatically changed? Seems a silly distinction


Appreciate the response. I’m typing on my phone so bear with me and I’ll try to keep this brief.

I like your argument, but see a couple issues. Any Texas citizen can own and use firearms per the 2nd Amendment. The only difference is you need to pass a test to possess and use the firearm outside of your own property.

Your position works in theory, but practically I believe the requirement of passing a basic test to possess and operate a firearm in public is defensible and necessary. I would guess that you view CWP tests as similar to poll taxes. If not please correct me. The biggest difference between a CWP test and a poll tax is on of these directly kills people. The government (state and federal) has some responsibility to the safety of the public. All that is being asked is to demonstrate the at the very least a level of competency with a firearm and basic understanding of the law surrounding them.

The CWP class benefits the individual and the public. The individual learns the stupid **** that will land him in prison (firing a warning shot for example). The public feels better knowing if that guy is carrying he at least took a one day class on firearm safety and can hit a target at 5-7 yds (I forget the distance now). I don’t see how anyone’s rights are being infringed upon in this situation.

Edit: Every dumbass can vote. Hopefully their opinion is drowned out by the thinking public. Every dumbass can own a gun. Every dumbass should not operate a gun in the public. Public safety becomes a real issue with one dumbass with a gun unlike just allowing one dumbass the right to vote.
Last edited by PrimeMinister on Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby PrimeMinister » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:53 am

uscbucsfan wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Trump naming Jerusalem the capital of Israel. Glad to see we're not needlessly inserting ourselves into other country's fights any more.

It was a spacific campaign promise. I'm ok with supporting Isreal. Although I'd rather stay out of most of these foreign conflicts. It makes more sense than some of the other **** we are doing internationally.


I’d rather stay TF out of that.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:07 pm

uscbucsfan wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Trump naming Jerusalem the capital of Israel. Glad to see we're not needlessly inserting ourselves into other country's fights any more.

It was a spacific campaign promise. I'm ok with supporting Isreal. Although I'd rather stay out of most of these foreign conflicts. It makes more sense than some of the other **** we are doing internationally.


If someone does not advocate for the United States support of Israel they are by default advocating for the neighboring Muslim nations to annihilate them.

Israel is key ally of ours in that part of the world. Allowing them to be destroyed is not a good foreign policy for the USA imo.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:22 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:It was a spacific campaign promise. I'm ok with supporting Isreal. Although I'd rather stay out of most of these foreign conflicts. It makes more sense than some of the other **** we are doing internationally.


If someone does not advocate for the United States support of Israel they are by default advocating for the neighboring Muslim nations to annihilate them.

Israel is key ally of ours in that part of the world. Allowing them to be destroyed is not a good foreign policy for the USA imo.

And moving our embassy helps the situation how, exactly? Does our embassy have deflector shields that don't work when it's in Tel Aviv?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:44 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:So you don't make any distinction between the right to punch a hole through paper next to someone's name and the right to own and operate a semi-automatic tool of death and dismemberment?



If you want to ask a serious question like PrimeMinister did I’d be happy to answer.

If you want to quote a part of my post you don’t understand and ask me to explain I will.

If you expect an answer or response to the question you wrote above, I fear you will be waiting

I understand your post just fine, but as my post indicates, I think it demonstrates a lack perspective. We do require people to register to vote, so it's not like some regulation is not allowed on constitutional amendments. By extension, an amendment covering potentially dangerous, lethal weaponry should be expected to have a proportional amount of regulation. A required safety class that meets a reasonable standard is a bare minimum in my opinion.

You use the argument 'which other amendment can I not exercise in a public place without harming others' etc as if that is the only criteria needing to be considered. It's not. No other constitutional amendments govern something which can be used to kill another person, so insisting that we treat this one like all the others ignores that.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:10 pm

Isr*al was a good idea until the dog stood up, took the leash off its neck and put it around ours. Now the west is the dog
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:20 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
uscbucsfan wrote:It was a spacific campaign promise. I'm ok with supporting Isreal. Although I'd rather stay out of most of these foreign conflicts. It makes more sense than some of the other **** we are doing internationally.


If someone does not advocate for the United States support of Israel they are by default advocating for the neighboring Muslim nations to annihilate them.

Israel is key ally of ours in that part of the world. Allowing them to be destroyed is not a good foreign policy for the USA imo.

That is exactly what Netanyahu would like us all to believe. In reality, the IDF is the most dominant military in the region and it's not even close.

Israel has the capability on it's own to establish air superiority for 3,000 nautical miles in any direction thanks to the 102 F-15's and 224 F-16s we sold them and that's not counting the 50 F-35s they have on order.
48 Apache attack helicopters
1,140 Merkava Mark III and IV main battle tanks
1.5 million military aged males already trained due to conscription ready to provide manpower for 7 brigades of Infantry on active duty with another 12 in reserve.
11 naval vessels designed as missile frigates
5 attack submarines

Not to mention between 80 and 400 (nobody knows for sure) operational nuclear warheads.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:38 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:
If someone does not advocate for the United States support of Isr*el they are by default advocating for the neighboring Muslim nations to annihilate them.

Isr*el is key ally of ours in that part of the world. Allowing them to be destroyed is not a good foreign policy for the USA imo.

That is exactly what N*tany*hu would like us all to believe. In reality, the I*F is the most dominant military in the region and it's not even close.

Isr*el has the capability on it's own to establish air superiority for 3,000 nautical miles in any direction thanks to the 102 F-15's and 224 F-16s we sold them and that's not counting the 50 F-35s they have on order.
48 Apache attack helicopters
1,140 Merkava Mark III and IV main battle tanks
1.5 million military aged males already trained due to conscription ready to provide manpower for 7 brigades of Infantry on active duty with another 12 in reserve.
11 naval vessels designed as missile frigates
5 attack submarines

Not to mention between 80 and 400 (nobody knows for sure) operational nuclear warheads.


to support MB's point:


translation is accurate:
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/checkpoint-washington/2010/07/netanyahu_america_is_a_thing_y.html
(WaPost opinion article from 2010)
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:07 pm

PrimeMinister wrote:
Appreciate the response.



yours as well...here are my thoughts to what you wrote


PrimeMinister wrote:

I like your argument, but see a couple issues. Any Texas citizen can own and use firearms per the 2nd Amendment. The only difference is you need to pass a test to possess and use the firearm outside of your own property.



By making citizens take tests...the government is restricting that right. When the constitution was written -- the framers didn't feel the need to restrict that right either specifically in the constitution nor by practice. They had weapons that obviously could easily be transported...yet they didn't qualify the right of where people can and can't take their arms -- they didn't make people take tests before they could exercise their right to bear arms. Now granted, I get that modern firepower is incredibly more lethal than it was 200 years ago...but we already have laws limiting what types of guns can be owned.




PrimeMinister wrote:
Your position works in theory, but practically I believe the requirement of passing a basic test to possess and operate a firearm in public is defensible and necessary. I would guess that you view CWP tests as similar to poll taxes. If not please correct me.


That certainly isn't my main issue with the government mandating tests in order to exercise a freedom but rather an ancillary one. I would still be against the test if they were free.



PrimeMinister wrote:The biggest difference between a CWP test and a poll tax is on of these directly kills people. The government (state and federal) has some responsibility to the safety of the public. All that is being asked is to demonstrate the at the very least a level of competency with a firearm and basic understanding of the law surrounding them.


There are plenty of things that can kill people that I don't have to take a test to use....and many of them aren't a protected right in the constitution. Again, if the framers thought a test was necessary they could have put one in...but they didn't. (see more on this later)


PrimeMinister wrote:
The CWP class benefits the individual and the public. The individual learns the stupid **** that will land him in prison (firing a warning shot for example). The public feels better knowing if that guy is carrying he at least took a one day class on firearm safety and can hit a target at 5-7 yds (I forget the distance now). I don’t see how anyone’s rights are being infringed upon in this situation.

Edit: Every dumbass can vote. Hopefully their opinion is drowned out by the thinking public. Every dumbass can own a gun. Every dumbass should not operate a gun in the public. Public safety becomes a real issue with one dumbass with a gun unlike just allowing one dumbass the right to vote.



As I eluded to earlier in my discussion on pragmatism...many states don't require tests and I have seen no evidence to suggest people in those states kill at a higher rate then other states. How could that be? If it is so necessary to make people take a test to carry a weapon, why isn't there a substantial difference between states that have tests and those that don't. Many someone can find those statistics for me. If I was a proponent of requiring tests, I would certainly have them ready.

And again, the tests are worthless. They are incredibly simple to pass. There is no technical training in these classes. There is no proficiency training. It's basically a class on telling people not to shoot others unless their life is in danger. My 8 year old could pass the test today. So again, why is such a worthless class and test required?

And finally, as I mentioned before...I can sit in my car and if my life is threatened I can shoot someone outside of my car. However, if I'm 2" outside my car, I can't carry that same exact defense weapon without taking a test. Seems silly to me.

As for dumbasses....our constitution gives dumbasses the same rights as it does MENSA folks. That is the sheer brilliance of it.


I'm very happy to have differing opinions on this with you. I completely recognize all of your points and I think they are well thought out and reasonable. But I don't agree with them.

Under our constitution, I have a right to own a firearm as private property without taking a test...no where in the constitution does it say that the government can restrict where I carry my private property just because it is POTENTIALLY lethal (like so many other products).


If our society feels that the freedom of gun owners should be restricted, then we should change the constitution just like we have in the past. I would actually be OK with that. What I'm not OK with, is the government not protecting a freedom of mine that it is required to protect. And we all know why our government never goes the constitution route anymore...because we could never get 2/3 of Congress to agree on anything...and this is one of my biggest dislikes of both of our parties...they both exploit this.




(And as an aside...what about all these ridiculous states and cities that require proof of imminent danger for someone to get a carry permit? That is the most ridiculous nonsense I have ever seen. So we have moved well beyond simply requiring someone to take a test of proficiency to something altogether different...a quick google search will result in many of these instances)


Anyway, PM, it's been a nice conversation :drinkingcheers:
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Brazen331 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:47 pm

Trump still ain't getting a majority of the Jewish vote with this move and much of that vote resides in states he has no chance to win to begin with. How does moving the embassy benefit the USA? I can see nothing but drawbacks for us.

Yes, Isreal is our friend as many friendships involve one side doing all the giving and the other doing all the taking so this relationship definitely meets the definition I suppose.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby beardmcdoug » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:03 pm

Brazen331 wrote:Trump still ain't getting a majority of the J*wish vote with this move and much of that vote resides in states he has no chance to win to begin with. How does moving the embassy benefit the USA? I can see nothing but drawbacks for us.

Yes, Isr*al is our friend as many friendships involve one side doing all the giving and the other doing all the taking so this relationship definitely meets the definition I suppose.



It's a chess move. Since the modern left can't help themselves to criticize literally everything Trump does, this move will trick the left into unwittingly making critical remarks about Isr*el.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:09 pm

Lord knows the left couldn't possibly criticize Israel.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:19 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:House is going to vote on a concealed carry bill...the gist is basically to make it like driver’s licenses....each state has to accept permits from other states

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12 ... floor.html



Passed pretty much along party lines in the House. Senate next


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/12 ... cates.html
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Re: Random Political News

Postby RedLeader » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:08 pm

Most tweeted activism hashtags in the US this year:

1 #Resist
2 #MAGA
3 #ImpeachTrump
4 #TrumpTrain
5 #WomensMarch
6 #NotMyPresident
7 #BlackLivesMatter
8 #NODAPL
9 #TakeAKnee
10 #BoycottNFL
11 #TheLeftNeedsASafeSpace





(okay, i made that last one up)
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:56 pm

7 out of 10 are left leaning.

Liberals: better with hashtags.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:14 pm

Pinkos like to hashtag.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Brazen331 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:14 am

Mountaineer Buc wrote:7 out of 10 are left leaning.

Liberals: better with hashtags.

More likely a reflection of the MSM inundating us with their liberal agenda morning, noon and night. People tweet what they see and hear.
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