Random Political News

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Re: Random Political News

Postby Buc2 » Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:29 pm

bucfanclw wrote:A link from CNN followed by a link from the Washington Post? Careful there Buc2... you wouldn't want your buddies to see you reporting fake news.

If you really scrutinized my linking history, you would see I read news from a variety of sources. Unlike some here, I don't restrict myself to any particular source of news.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby RedLeader » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:54 pm

bucfanclw wrote:A link from CNN followed by a link from the Washington Post? Careful there Buc2... you wouldn't want your buddies to see you reporting fake news.


Lol. Such the troll lately...
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:56 pm

RedLeader wrote: lately...




link?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby HamBone » Sat Nov 25, 2017 7:30 pm

All this sexual harassment stuff has a witch hunt sense to it...but maybe that's just me.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:26 pm

Bernie Sanders is taking steps to address longstanding political shortcomings that were exposed in 2016, ahead of another possible presidential bid in 2020.

From forging closer ties to the labor movement to shoring up his once-flimsy foreign policy credentials, the moves have provided the senator inroads into party power structures that largely shunned him in favor of Hillary Clinton last year. They've also empowered the progressive icon to harness his newfound political power and help Democrats fight President Donald Trump's administration.


Sanders has been working closely with figures who are close to the party establishment he's long railed against, like American Federation of Teachers President Randi Weingarten. And he's been meeting with international affairs experts such as Bill Perry, a defense secretary in the administration of President Bill Clinton, around a series of speeches designed to define his international vision, one year after running a campaign heavy on domestic policy and light on the rest of the world.

The Vermont independent hasn't decided whether to run for president again in 2020. To his closest allies, his efforts represent a natural next step in his role as "outreach chairman" for Senate Democrats, a new position created for him late last year by Minority Leader Chuck Schumer of New York.

Yet the maneuvers could form an important part of a Sanders 2020 effort, a dozen of those allies acknowledged to POLITICO — one that looks markedly different from his surprise 2016 bid, which often suffered from a lack of mainstream political support.


I speculate that Bernie will get all kinds of DNC support this time around. Let him take on incumbent Trump while focusing on Congressional gains. If Bernie loses, they can say the progressive wing is too extreme for national politics, etc. and get back to their corporatism.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:31 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:If Bernie loses, they can say the progressive wing is too extreme for national politics, etc. and get back to their corporatism.



So do you see this as the only two choices?

Far left socialism or corporatism?

If so, I feel sorry for your party.

I would think there is a nice middle ground in there somewhere....you guys need another Bill Clinton, not a Bernie Sanders IMO.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:38 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:If Bernie loses, they can say the progressive wing is too extreme for national politics, etc. and get back to their corporatism.



So do you see this as the only two choices?

Far left socialism or corporatism?

If so, I feel sorry for your party.

I would think there is a nice middle ground in there somewhere....you guys need another Bill Clinton, not a Bernie Sanders IMO.

Meanwhile the Republican party has become the party of blatant cronyism with no real options being given. Congrats on at least finding a unifying directive for your party.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:41 pm

bucfanclw wrote:Meanwhile the Republican party has become the party of blatant cronyism with no real options being given. Congrats on at least finding a unifying directive for your party.




ok
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:57 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Meanwhile the Republican party has become the party of blatant cronyism with no real options being given. Congrats on at least finding a unifying directive for your party.




ok

Sorry, the crony term came directly from someone from your own party that's on his way out:

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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:07 pm

Ok
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:27 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:If Bernie loses, they can say the progressive wing is too extreme for national politics, etc. and get back to their corporatism.



So do you see this as the only two choices?

Far left socialism or corporatism?

If so, I feel sorry for your party.

I would think there is a nice middle ground in there somewhere....you guys need another Bill Clinton, not a Bernie Sanders IMO.

No, Zarni. That's not the choice here.

Bernie is a self described democratic socialist, but his campaign never called for the socialization of anything. Bernie, whether he chooses to admit it or not, is still a capitalist and is seeking to reform capitalism. So I think the "far left socialism" label you've pinned here is a mis-characterization.

I think the choice is between left wing populism and progressivism vs. left wing corporatism that panders to the poor while flying off to the Catalina wine mixer.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:42 pm

Bernie is the farthest left candidate of my lifetime and it’s not even close.

I think there is room for a moderate progressive that isn’t a corporate shill. Many of slick Willie’s policy positions were far more centrist than the current party. I don’t think moderate has to be corporatist

I think many of Clinton’s policy positions would be most successful right now for the left. Not the far left of Bernie.

But ultimately that is for you folks to decide.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:44 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Bernie is the farthest left candidate of my lifetime and it’s not even close.

I think there is room for a moderate progressive that isn’t a corporate shill. Many of slick Willie’s policy positions were far more centrist than the current party. I don’t think moderate has to be corporatist

I think many of Clinton’s policy positions would be most successful right now for the left. Not the far left of Bernie.

But ultimately that is for you folks to decide.

For better or worse, the party is moving left. How far left remains to be seen.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:56 pm

I think that’s the case for both parties. Conservatives are much farther left economically then I would like to see. It’s disappointing as far as I’m concerned


I think their shift left on non-economic social issues is a good move
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:35 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:I think that’s the case for both parties. Conservatives are much farther left economically then I would like to see. It’s disappointing as far as I’m concerned


I think their shift left on non-economic social issues is a good move

Could you cite some examples where the conservatives are too left economically? I just don't see it that way.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:39 pm

Spending. Far too high.

We need to drastically cut spending as a % of GDP
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:42 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Spending. Far too high.

We need to drastically cut spending as a % of GDP

So where do you propose cutting spending?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:48 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Spending. Far too high.

We need to drastically cut spending as a % of GDP

I see.

Problem with that is the dirty little secret that government spending is propping up the economy right now. Everything from transfer payments to postal jobs to Aircraft Carriers.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 3:57 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
Zarniwoop wrote:Spending. Far too high.

We need to drastically cut spending as a % of GDP

I see.

Problem with that is the dirty little secret that government spending is propping up the economy right now. Everything from transfer payments to postal jobs to Aircraft Carriers.

That's a dirty little secret in the same way that it's a dirty little secret that Keith Richards has taken some illegal substances. That's why I'm curious what he would cut in order to lower spending that wouldn't have a negative impact on the economy.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Brazen331 » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:17 pm

Now that the dirty secret about government spending being the savior and end all and be all of our economy has been revealed, let’s just spend double of whatever we are spending now.

If that doesn’t work we can always triple and quadruple our government spending now that we know the secret to success.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:32 pm

Brazen331 wrote:Now that the dirty secret about government spending being the savior and end all and be all of our economy has been revealed, let’s just spend double of whatever we are spending now.

If that doesn’t work we can always triple and quadruple our government spending now that we know the secret to success.

No, Screwball.

Understanding the nature of the problem is the first step to solving it. The private sector currently NEEDS all this government spending which is why you have 80 quadrillion lobbyists in DC.

Consumer spending as a share of GDP is around 70% and that's very, very high. The reason it's so high is partially due to the losses in manufacturing which means this is essentially the new normal and as such we've enjoyed paltry growth for the better part of a decade. (consumer economy) If indeed this is the new normal, the smart thing to do is bolster consumer spending beyond low interest rates. How?

Wages.

When consumers have money to spend, there will much less necessary clamoring at the feed trough in Washington and the cuts Zarni wants to see can happen without a significant economic hit.

Want to get people/businesses off the gubmint tit? Offer sweeter milk elsewhere.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:35 pm

Yes of course they are propping up the economy artificially....they are stealing from the future to pay for things now.

You think this is some sort of justification for more spending?



As far as your “necessary” point....it hasn’t mattered what the economy has done over the last 50 years...some people will ALWAYS increase govt spending. Show me any sustained time period where spending hasn’t increased. Some people will never want to get off the government teet.

Sadly...the bell will eventually toll.
Last edited by Zarniwoop on Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:42 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Yes of course they are propping up the economy artificially....they are stealing from the future to pay for things now.

You think this is some sort of justification for more spending?

Mountaineer Buc wrote:No, Screwball.

Understanding the nature of the problem is the first step to solving it. The private sector currently NEEDS all this government spending which is why you have 80 quadrillion lobbyists in DC.

Consumer spending as a share of GDP is around 70% and that's very, very high. The reason it's so high is partially due to the losses in manufacturing which means this is essentially the new normal and as such we've enjoyed paltry growth for the better part of a decade. (consumer economy) If indeed this is the new normal, the smart thing to do is bolster consumer spending beyond low interest rates. How?

Wages.

When consumers have money to spend, there will much less necessary clamoring at the feed trough in Washington and the cuts Zarni wants to see can happen without a significant economic hit.

Want to get people/businesses off the gubmint tit? Offer sweeter milk elsewhere.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:47 pm

Brazen331 wrote:Now that the dirty secret about government spending being the savior and end all and be all of our economy has been revealed, let’s just spend double of whatever we are spending now.

If that doesn’t work we can always triple and quadruple our government spending now that we know the secret to success.



Why stop at quadruple? If it’s good to steal from the future to prop up the present, let’s get to 50x. Let’s let the government spend as much as they want to help business.

Let’s let businesses do it too.

Let’s let people do it too.


——

Clearly there is a point where debt is no longer good. We are far past that point. We are taking out more debt every year all the while the current debt is getting larger because we can’t even service it.

And it’s not like the debt we take out as individuals where often times we have valuable assets attached to it (home loans)...this is debt with no asset tied to it
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:05 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Show me any sustained time period where spending hasn’t increased.

We've been spending right around 35% GDP since 1980, with the notable exception of the mortgage fallout in 08.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:15 pm

The point, gentlemen is that spending needs to go down, but it's not as simple as cutting stuff.

The whole damned budget/economy is built around DC and those who either feed off of it or profit from those who do. Nobody likes this, but that's where we are.

The private sector has GOT to get boosted by consumer spending to break this cycle. Consumers should have more money than the Government could ever goddamned dream of.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Zarniwoop » Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:25 pm

Other than cutting spending, I’m not sure how you get spending to go down. By definition they go hand in hand

I know you don’t trust the market to sort stuff out...that’s fine. I do.



And I know plenty of people who like the fact that govt spending is such a high portion of the GDP...many of which want it to increase
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Re: Random Political News

Postby bucfanclw » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:42 pm

Zarniwoop wrote:Other than cutting spending, I’m not sure how you get spending to go down. By definition they go hand in hand

I know you don’t trust the market to sort stuff out...that’s fine. I do.



And I know plenty of people who like the fact that govt spending is such a high portion of the GDP...many of which want it to increase

Cool. So what spending should we cut?
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Re: Random Political News

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:39 pm

This conversation is going to go nowhere.
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Re: Random Political News

Postby deltbucs » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:14 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:This conversation is going to go nowhere.

Well, it started with Zarni using your post to take a shot at your team. Where did you think it was going?
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