Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:16 pm

TheChefO wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:...and yet the only defense left for Trump's actions here is that he was doing exactly that and saw absolutely no potential personal gain for it. Seems like you painted yourself into a corner here.


Cop hates neighbor.

Cop catches neighbor breaking into a house.

Cop isn't allowed to arrest neighbor because cop might enjoy getting their neighbor locked up?

Cop = Congress

Neighbor = Trump
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby NavyBuc » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:17 pm

StillCSG wrote:
NavyBuc wrote:
Disagree. I think the question is "Is this a high crime?"
I don't think Reagan's was and they didn't pursue it. I didn't think Clinton's was, but they did pursue it. And I don't think Trump's is, but dems will pursue it.


You do realize that

A. This IS a high crime per federal law (it's a felony)
B. Even if it wasn't he can also be impeached and removed for a misdemeanor


I’m sorry...I don’t see asking another country to investigate a corrupt candidate as a “high crime worthy of impeachment”. Same goes for what Reagan and Clinton did. Impeachment by the founding fathers was meant for more serious crimes than this. I don’t think what Trump did was right, nor did what Clinton did was right, but I dont think one either one rises to the level of impeachment.

That’s just my opinion. But if more stuff comes out, that can change it.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:32 pm

NavyBuc wrote:
StillCSG wrote:
You do realize that

A. This IS a high crime per federal law (it's a felony)
B. Even if it wasn't he can also be impeached and removed for a misdemeanor


I’m sorry...I don’t see asking another country to investigate a corrupt candidate as a “high crime worthy of impeachment”. Same goes for what Reagan and Clinton did. Impeachment by the founding fathers was meant for more serious crimes than this. I don’t think what Trump did was right, nor did what Clinton did was right, but I dont think one either one rises to the level of impeachment.

That’s just my opinion. But if more stuff comes out, that can change it.



CSG is wrong because he is trying to tie it to 2020 and Navy is wrong per my last post.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 1:33 pm

Bring in our lawyers they will back me up.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby TheChefO » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:03 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
TheChefO wrote:
Cop hates neighbor.

Cop catches neighbor breaking into a house.

Cop isn't allowed to arrest neighbor because cop might enjoy getting their neighbor locked up?

Cop = Congress

Neighbor = Trump


Not quite...

Congress = "What the **** are you doing breaking into that house, pig? Where's your warrant?"
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:05 pm

TheChefO wrote:
Mountaineer Buc wrote:Cop = Congress

Neighbor = Trump


Not quite...

Congress = "What the **** are you doing breaking into that house, pig? Where's your warrant?"

I know that's not what you meant. I just wondered if you noticed the interchangeability of the variables in your little scene.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby TheChefO » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:08 pm

Mountaineer Buc wrote:
TheChefO wrote:
Not quite...

Congress = "What the **** are you doing breaking into that house, pig? Where's your warrant?"

I know that's not what you meant. I just wondered if you noticed the interchangeability of the variables in your little scene.


Oh yeah, I completely agree, however in adding in this 3rd element it's much more along the lines of the neighbor's friend trying to get the cop fired over a technicality.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:12 pm

The analogy isn’t bad, but it’s more like the American people own the house, two sets of burglars are taking turns robbing the place, and then they alternate yelling at us (gathered in the living room) that the other guys are robbing our house. That’s when we notice both sets of robbers are wearing police uniforms.

Some of us on the couch are arguing about who the real burglars are and encouraging one set of robber cops to arrest the other. The others are yelling at the robber cops to stop arguing about who is at fault and asking them to stop robbing the place.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Nov 20, 2019 2:51 pm

bucfanclw wrote:You can't understand why a president that was elected on the platform of rooting out corruption wouldn't just play along with outside corruption the first chance he got? That's an interesting stance.

Are you talking about Trump or Zelensky?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:26 pm

So I am seeing the CC and they keep referencing the fact that Sondland says when he talked to Trump in the middle of the Bill Taylor texting thing that Trump told Sondland “There is no quid pro quo. Give him what he wants.” It appears that at least one Democrat is trying to get Sondland to say how this was evidence that Trump knew he had asked for a quid pro quo. I’m not sure that logic works... but... does it?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Selmon Rules » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:44 pm

PanteraCanes wrote:
Selmon Rules wrote:If you believe he is guilty, you must also believe that he was willing to trade US interests for his own interests. Using Congressional approved, taxpayer money to force a newly-elected foreign government to smear a political rival. This entails bringing a foreign government into our political process and Watergate, while still being criminal, at least kept the crimes involved inside our own borders.

Where does this rank?? Worse than lying about getting a blow job but not as bad as breaking into opponents office to spy on them??

If this was Obama, the board would erupt in flames if someone suggested it would not be impeachable.... I would be in favor of it



Biden had just bragged on tape about holding up a billion in taxpayer dollars from the same government unless they fire the guy investigating his son. You just want to let that slide?

I thought we were all about investigating to make sure our elections were not tainted. If it is believed that that government was part of some smear conspiracy which resulted in a 2 year investigation that might have been started on fraudulent documents do you not want that looked into?

The difference is that when Biden went there to get the prosecutor fired he went as a representative of and with the approval of our government to get rid of a corrupt prosecutor who would not investigate and have him replaced with one who would investigate. Not sure how this could be in his best interests and against national interests as it could only take a non-existent investigation into Burisma and get it active.

This would expose corruption there, would it not? If there was corruption found it would not be good for either him personally or his son. Trump on the other hand sent Rudy over to get his investigation through some shady dealings.... The only way he could have done this properly would be to have his DOJ investigate.

I'm still trying to figure out why Trump sent millions of dollars and included weapons to a government he believed corrupt but when they got a newly elected president there, he decided he needed to have them announce an investigation into a conspiracy theory that involved one of his political rivals instead of any of the other myriad of corruption cases that they floating around over there....

Not really sure why I am taking the time to explain this to people who either don't want to look things up for themselves or don't really care cuz, TEAMS!!!!
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Selmon Rules » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:51 pm

NavyBuc wrote:
Selmon Rules wrote:If you believe he is guilty, you must also believe that he was willing to trade US interests for his own interests. Using Congressional approved, taxpayer money to force a newly-elected foreign government to smear a political rival. This entails bringing a foreign government into our political process and Watergate, while still being criminal, at least kept the crimes involved inside our own borders.

Where does this rank?? Worse than lying about getting a blow job but not as bad as breaking into opponents office to spy on them??

If this was Obama, the board would erupt in flames if someone suggested it would not be impeachable.... I would be in favor of it


In your honest opinion, is this worse than what Reagan did with Iran Contra? The Democrats never pursued impeachment for that because while they believed Reagan was guilty, they didn't see it as "a high crime". And I view this the same way. What Trump did was wrong, but it doesn't rise to the "high crime" level.

If they can "prove" more stuff, then that could change things, but thus far I haven't seen one witness testify that this was bribery or treason or a high crime of any sort.

I'm old enough to to remember the Iran Contra hearings, watched a lot of them on TV. I think the biggest difference was the lack of extreme polarization of the parties and the general idea that one could justify it as trying to fight the Cold War we were still smack in the middle of. I'm having a hard time seeing how this could possibly be perceived as in our nations "Best Interests". I see it as having the exact opposite effect.

And FWIW, I do appreciate the actual discussion you seem able to have on the subject.... Seems to be rare around here and honestly don't know that I will be responding to anyone still spouting those ridiculous conspiracy theories any more...
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:54 pm

Selmon Rules wrote:
PanteraCanes wrote:

Biden had just bragged on tape about holding up a billion in taxpayer dollars from the same government unless they fire the guy investigating his son. You just want to let that slide?

I thought we were all about investigating to make sure our elections were not tainted. If it is believed that that government was part of some smear conspiracy which resulted in a 2 year investigation that might have been started on fraudulent documents do you not want that looked into?

The difference is that when Biden went there to get the prosecutor fired he went as a representative of and with the approval of our government to get rid of a corrupt prosecutor who would not investigate and have him replaced with one who would investigate. Not sure how this could be in his best interests and against national interests as it could only take a non-existent investigation into Burisma and get it active.

This would expose corruption there, would it not? If there was corruption found it would not be good for either him personally or his son. Trump on the other hand sent Rudy over to get his investigation through some shady dealings.... The only way he could have done this properly would be to have his DOJ investigate.

I'm still trying to figure out why Trump sent millions of dollars and included weapons to a government he believed corrupt but when they got a newly elected president there, he decided he needed to have them announce an investigation into a conspiracy theory that involved one of his political rivals instead of any of the other myriad of corruption cases that they floating around over there....

Not really sure why I am taking the time to explain this to people who either don't want to look things up for themselves or don't really care cuz, TEAMS!!!!

I am on a team. I am on Team “let’s not rip the country with a nakedly partisan impeachment inquiry.” What team are you on?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Ken Carson » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:54 pm

duplicate
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby TheChefO » Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:55 pm

Selmon Rules wrote:
PanteraCanes wrote:

Biden had just bragged on tape about holding up a billion in taxpayer dollars from the same government unless they fire the guy investigating his son. You just want to let that slide?

I thought we were all about investigating to make sure our elections were not tainted. If it is believed that that government was part of some smear conspiracy which resulted in a 2 year investigation that might have been started on fraudulent documents do you not want that looked into?

The difference is that when Biden went there to get the prosecutor fired he went as a representative of and with the approval of our government to get rid of a corrupt prosecutor who would not investigate and have him replaced with one who would investigate. Not sure how this could be in his best interests and against national interests as it could only take a non-existent investigation into Burisma and get it active.

This would expose corruption there, would it not? If there was corruption found it would not be good for either him personally or his son. Trump on the other hand sent Rudy over to get his investigation through some shady dealings.... The only way he could have done this properly would be to have his DOJ investigate.

I'm still trying to figure out why Trump sent millions of dollars and included weapons to a government he believed corrupt but when they got a newly elected president there, he decided he needed to have them announce an investigation into a conspiracy theory that involved one of his political rivals instead of any of the other myriad of corruption cases that they floating around over there....

Not really sure why I am taking the time to explain this to people who either don't want to look things up for themselves or don't really care cuz, TEAMS!!!!



Biden demanded the prosecutor be fired and held 1Billion in the balance of this decision.

Your honest assessment of this was that Joe Biden did this because he demanded a prosecutor look into a corrupt company that hired his son with zero experience or credentials in the field and paid him $50-80k/mo, and this prosecutor wasn't investigating it so he had to go ...

Seriously?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:32 pm

Ken Carson wrote:So I am seeing the CC and they keep referencing the fact that Sondland says when he talked to Trump in the middle of the Bill Taylor texting thing that Trump told Sondland “There is no quid pro quo. Give him what he wants.” It appears that at least one Democrat is trying to get Sondland to say how this was evidence that Trump knew he had asked for a quid pro quo. I’m not sure that logic works... but... does it?

What date did Trump say that?
What date was the investigation launched?
Do those dates make you even BEGIN to question Trump's motivations?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby TheChefO » Wed Nov 20, 2019 4:38 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:So I am seeing the CC and they keep referencing the fact that Sondland says when he talked to Trump in the middle of the Bill Taylor texting thing that Trump told Sondland “There is no quid pro quo. Give him what he wants.” It appears that at least one Democrat is trying to get Sondland to say how this was evidence that Trump knew he had asked for a quid pro quo. I’m not sure that logic works... but... does it?

What date did Trump say that?
What date was the investigation launched?
Do those dates make you even BEGIN to question Trump's motivations?


I agree it is too wishy washy ... would have been much better to have borrowed Joe Biden's technique, showed up on AF1, demand a public presser regarding Barisma & Biden's shenanigans, and they've got 5 hours to get it done, or no aid.

Be sure to have a camera rolling too ... for clarity
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:30 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
Ken Carson wrote:So I am seeing the CC and they keep referencing the fact that Sondland says when he talked to Trump in the middle of the Bill Taylor texting thing that Trump told Sondland “There is no quid pro quo. Give him what he wants.” It appears that at least one Democrat is trying to get Sondland to say how this was evidence that Trump knew he had asked for a quid pro quo. I’m not sure that logic works... but... does it?

What date did Trump say that?
What date was the investigation launched?
Do those dates make you even BEGIN to question Trump's motivations?

I see we've reached the bu-bu-but Trump's motivations portion of the prosecution. Cool.

I see actual evidence is just as irrelevant to the same people who thought it was irrelevant in the Trump-Russia conspiracy.

Kudos for consistency I suppose.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby bucfanclw » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:35 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:What date did Trump say that?
What date was the investigation launched?
Do those dates make you even BEGIN to question Trump's motivations?

I see we've reached the bu-bu-but Trump's motivations portion of the prosecution. Cool.

I see actual evidence is just as irrelevant to the same people who thought it was irrelevant in the Trump-Russia conspiracy.

Kudos for consistency I suppose.

Are you saying motivation has no bearing in the law?

The problem with Ken's planned exculpatory evidence is that he said those things AFTER he found out he was under investigation. In other words, that was Trump's shitty attempt at a coverup.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:58 pm

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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby DreadNaught » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:05 pm

bucfanclw wrote:
DreadNaught wrote:I see we've reached the bu-bu-but Trump's motivations portion of the prosecution. Cool.

I see actual evidence is just as irrelevant to the same people who thought it was irrelevant in the Trump-Russia conspiracy.

Kudos for consistency I suppose.

Are you saying motivation has no bearing in the law?

The problem with Ken's planned exculpatory evidence is that he said those things AFTER he found out he was under investigation. In other words, that was Trump's shitty attempt at a coverup.

What I'm saying is that presumptions about somebody else's motivations and hearsay aren't evidence. Do you disagree?

I'm one of these people that believe in old tropes like innocent until proven guilty and evidence should be required to assume guilt or convict someone, even if I don't like that person.

Which is why I keep asking for what the evidence is here? Sondland testified that he presumed Trump's motivations but that no person told him there were any linkage/connection between aide and investigations.

There are also the facts of;

- Ukraine never aware aide was withheld
- Aide was released
- No investigations occurred as a result of aide being received

Does anyone dispute those facts?

So what is the case here other than presumptions and hearsay? If that's all this case is about is that really what you're advocating impeaching a POTUS on?
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby HamBone » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:43 pm

Nothing so far proves the President demanded a bribe or a quid pro quo...did he want Barisma investigated? Probably. Was he willing to withhold aid? Possible.

nothing we’ve seen proves it. But, if they want to draw up articles of impeachment...do it. Let’s have a trial and see what the American People want. Cause, it’ll take 20 Republican Senators to feel enough pressure from their constituents to flip.

Like the President or not...keep in mind that this could become the norm for future President’s.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Nov 20, 2019 6:57 pm

HamBone wrote:Nothing so far proves the President demanded a bribe or a quid pro quo...did he want Barisma investigated? Probably. Was he willing to withhold aid? Possible.

nothing we’ve seen proves it. But, if they want to draw up articles of impeachment...do it. Let’s have a trial and see what the American People want. Cause, it’ll take 20 Republican Senators to feel enough pressure from their constituents to flip.

Like the President or not...keep in mind that this could become the norm for future President’s.


It should be the Norm
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:02 pm

DreadNaught wrote:
bucfanclw wrote:Are you saying motivation has no bearing in the law?

The problem with Ken's planned exculpatory evidence is that he said those things AFTER he found out he was under investigation. In other words, that was Trump's shitty attempt at a coverup.

What I'm saying is that presumptions about somebody else's motivations and hearsay aren't evidence. Do you disagree?

I'm one of these people that believe in old tropes like innocent until proven guilty and evidence should be required to assume guilt or convict someone, even if I don't like that person.

Which is why I keep asking for what the evidence is here? Sondland testified that he presumed Trump's motivations but that no person told him there were any linkage/connection between aide and investigations.

There are also the facts of;

- Ukraine never aware aide was withheld
- Aide was released
- No investigations occurred as a result of aide being received

Does anyone dispute those facts?

So what is the case here other than presumptions and hearsay? If that's all this case is about is that really what you're advocating impeaching a POTUS on?


Let’s make this simple ...

- Rep. Peter Welch: Could a mayor withhold funding for the police budget unless the police chief agreed to investigate a political rival?

No.

Could a governor withhold the budget of the state police unless the police investigated a rival?

No.

And could a president?

No.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby PetePierson » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:15 pm

So the US is giving aid to a shithole foreign country purely out of the goodness of its heart?

Oh that's right; the Ukraine is going to take on Russia with the HUGE amount of US aid....

Don't be so naive.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby HamBone » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:24 pm

Jason Bourne wrote:
HamBone wrote:Nothing so far proves the President demanded a bribe or a quid pro quo...did he want Barisma investigated? Probably. Was he willing to withhold aid? Possible.

nothing we’ve seen proves it. But, if they want to draw up articles of impeachment...do it. Let’s have a trial and see what the American People want. Cause, it’ll take 20 Republican Senators to feel enough pressure from their constituents to flip.

Like the President or not...keep in mind that this could become the norm for future President’s.


It should be the Norm


Impeaching a President when you cannot prove a legit impeachable offense was committed? Ok, but I cannot help but feel your would feel differently if it was a President you liked.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Jason Bourne » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:35 pm

HamBone wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
It should be the Norm


Impeaching a President when you cannot prove a limpeachable offense was committed? Ok, but I cannot help but feel your would feel differently if it was a President you liked.


I think the Investigation just started but give it time . It’s not looking good for Trump tho.

It a little early to say they can’t prove anything .

For the Record any President that breaks the law , should be investigated . Democrat or Republican .
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Selmon Rules » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:41 pm

Learned something new this evening, by law President has to notify Congress if he decides to withhold Congressionally funded and approved aid.... No excuses

Interesting








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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby Mountaineer Buc » Wed Nov 20, 2019 7:46 pm

Get off your soapbox, JB you partisan hack.

We're not here because of Trump. We're here because of Biden and Clinton and Obama. Impeachment was off the table until Trump committed the sin of going after the Democratic establishment. Illegal as it may have been, it doesn't mean Trump was wrong about Biden.

And if it wasn't for Obama and Hillary, Trump wouldn't be President in the first place.
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Re: Impeachment of Donald Trump thread

Postby mdb1958 » Wed Nov 20, 2019 8:16 pm

PetePierson wrote:So the US is giving aid to a shithole foreign country purely out of the goodness of its heart?

Oh that's right; the Ukraine is going to take on Russia with the HUGE amount of US aid....

Don't be so naive.




Total economic and military assistance: $49.87 billion. Our free gift to the world in 2017. I kinda like Trump wanting them to earn it for our country, while many of you seem to like to take it back to where it wasnt broke. LOL
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